Running underground service

[250]

Ok, I know this is a bit of a can of worms question. We've been researching building a house in foothills of california. We're looking at a piece of property that PG&E quoted 60k for 450ft of underground service. While primary service right up to the house would be nice, I'm not looking to give them that much to help them out of bankruptcy.

Before anyone says we need no more specifics, we don't have house plans so there are no load calculations to share. Here are the broad strokes.

Main house 2500sq

Shop/Barn whatever

Inlaw unit 1000-1200sq

I made a semi-educated guess of 600amp service, could be totally wrong on thats what we need.

So my question is- what would a ball park cost to use the transformer on the pole and run underground line 700ft up to the proposed build site? Run would go mostly up a gravel road that is already there. 20k? 50k?

Thanks!

 

[Metal-Marc]

600 amps? What kind of operation are you going to run in that shop?

 

[mobetta]

I thought everyone was leaving Cali???

but really- theres a reason they run the primary closer to the house and drop in a transformer- voltage drop over long distances

400 amp seems like overkil to me but what do i know........

 

[Norcal]

You are going to have to discuss that with Pacific Graft & Extortion and they are not fun to deal with.

 

[rlmartinson]

In a previous job, I worked for a electric utility in the midwest. Our rule of thumb for a standard service was to have the transformer 200' from the house/meter. Yes, you can go farther, but you will have to use larger conductors to offset the voltage drop. If it was my land, I would put the transformer up by the buildings and limit your service length.
Ballpark underground price is $50/foot for material and labor, but probably double/triple that in California.

I would find a local electrician to tell you the most efficient way to build this. Good luck

 

[250]

600 amps? What kind of operation are you going to run in that shop?

Nothing intensive. Doubtful ever more than 10hp worth of motor. The 600amp would be for the whole package. Maybe that's way more service than needed, maybe that appropriate future proofing. One PG&E tech felt that was totally reasonable, one though it was way too much juice.

I thought everyone was leaving Cali???

but really- theres a reason they run the primary closer to the house and drop in a transformer- voltage drop over long distances

400 amp seems like overkil to me but what do i know........

In all honestly we might leave as well. Its not the same state as it was, or maybe I'm just more educated now, or both. We came back to be closer to family, we might pack the family up and all get out.

You are going to have to discuss that with Pacific Graft & Extortion and they are not fun to deal with.

I've have a few conversations with them. While most of them have been pretty polite helpful, the timeline and expense hasn't been.

In a previous job, I worked for a electric utility in the midwest. Our rule of thumb for a standard service was to have the transformer 200' from the house/meter. Yes, you can go farther, but you will have to use larger conductors to offset the voltage drop. If it was my land, I would put the transformer up by the buildings and limit your service length.
Ballpark underground price is $50/foot for material and labor, but probably double/triple that in California.

I would find a local electrician to tell you the most efficient way to build this. Good luck

In a perfect world I'd run the primary right up next to the house, which would probably be about 90k. Thats a no go for us. The wife has already lost interest in that property with the current PG&E estimate, and this was the property she was in strong preference of.

Don't know if any of that information helps or not.

 

[Bert_]

No experience with pg&e. Will they let you install conduit for them to pull in primary and set the transformer at the end?

I do that a lot with one utility here. For a single phase transformer they want 2" conduit 4' deep. I can trench that fairly cheap.

Obviously they would still have costs to pull the wire and set the transformer

 

[Don1357]

I had a 200 amp into the property, I just split that between the house and shop, 100 amp each. From the top of my head my garage/workshop has about 20HP worth of stationary tools alone but is not like I could use them all at once. 100 amp is more than enough.

Chances are you don't need 600 by a loooooooong shot.

 

[250]

No experience with pg&e. Will they let you install conduit for them to pull in primary and set the transformer at the end?

I do that a lot with one utility here. For a single phase transformer they want 2" conduit 4' deep. I can trench that fairly cheap.

Obviously they would still have costs to pull the wire and set the transformer

The 60k is for them to do the engineering, the primary wire and appropriate transformer and pad. Doesn't include trench and conduit.

 

[kj_mustang]

We have had this discussion in other threads on this site. Every power utility does things differently and charges differently. 6 years ago I had to pay my power company about $3,000 for them to run about 400' of underground line from the pole to new transformer set behind my shop that was under construction. I offered to dig the trench myself to save on cost and they said it would cut the cost only $100. Less than what I would pay to rent the equipment.

 

[dcg9381]

Before anyone says we need no more specifics, we don't have house plans so there are no load calculations to share. Here are the broad strokes.

Main house 2500sq

Shop/Barn whatever

Inlaw unit 1000-1200sq

600A? No way. Not unless you're doing something really industrial in the shop -- and if you were, you'd need 3 phase.

I'd consider it to be a (2500sqft + 1200sqft) home plus a shop. Even a home of that size gets by fine with 200A.. Exceptions would be if it's "all electric" - with a pool/hot tub, in a cold climate, using electrical resistance for aux heat.

I have a 2400 sqft shop in Texas. That's quite a bit of cooling required. The shop has a hot tub, full kitchen, a 50A RV connection (in use). I have a welder. We've had zero problems on 90A worth of power, running both RV ACs, both shop ACs, the hot tub, and a welder in parallel.

What service levels does your POC provide? If you were here, I'd say install 320A service.


Our "total setup" is similar to yours. We have a 3000 sqft home, 700 sqft apartment, 3-car garage with a 50A EV charger in addition to the shop. My property service is 320A, with 200 amp service going to the house. The next step up was 400A service.

So my question is- what would a ball park cost to use the transformer on the pole and run underground line 700ft up to the proposed build site?

Here, the developer / home owner is responsible from the transformer to the property. We did have an option to install conduit and set a transformer pad, but I didn't pursue that.

Start by calculating the cost of the wire you need to bring 200-300A into the area. You may have to do it with two separate lines if you need 100A at the shop.

If you really think you need 600A (no way I agree) - I'd bring the transformer closer to the shop. Less line loss with higher voltage in front of that transformer.

The main cost will be trenching and wire.. And trenching is highly variable depending on the soil conditions and the availability of a contractor to cut that trench.

Here, a 250' electrical line from the transformer to the house, electrician bid $3000 just for the line and wire. I thought that was high, so I rented a rock saw ($500), cut the trench, and pre-laid 3" conduit. It's not a linear cost, as you'll need bigger wire..


For 600A, I think you're moving the transformer to get it...

 

[Bert_]

The 60k is for them to do the engineering, the primary wire and appropriate transformer and pad. Doesn't include trench and conduit.

Ok, asking for 600A service probably has something to do with it. Unless you're doing electric heat or running a production shop all that will run on 200A. Not sure if they do self-contained for that size but a 320/400 might be a good option

 

[wyliesdiesels]

600a is overkill!

In terms of running secondary all that distance, it will probably be cheaper than what they want to charge you for primary and a pad mount

Nothing intensive. Doubtful ever more than 10hp worth of motor. The 600amp would be for the whole package. Maybe that's way more service than needed, maybe that appropriate future proofing. One PG&E tech felt that was totally reasonable, one though it was way too much juice.

geez what will you be running?

No experience with pg&e. Will they let you install conduit for them to pull in primary and set the transformer at the end?

I do that a lot with one utility here. For a single phase transformer they want 2" conduit 4' deep. I can trench that fairly cheap.

Obviously they would still have costs to pull the wire and set the transformer

no they wont

 

[250]

600a being too much is the first piece of good news so far. I just made some assumptions, thank you for the corrections and happy to be wrong.

A bigger band saw or table saw plus some dust collection. 10hp may be way over what I ever get to but I won't be over that.

wyliesdiesels- You're geographically pretty close to us.

So if looking at the wire calcs for 400a, that gives a recommendation of 1500 mcm alum. Would that be something like this?

https://www.wireandcableyourway.com...MIxe7VhsDT7gIVDSCtBh1plQnQEAQYAiABEgJX5PD_BwE

 

[Norcal]

600a being too much is the first piece of good news so far. I just made some assumptions, thank you for the corrections and happy to be wrong.

A bigger band saw or table saw plus some dust collection. 10hp may be way over what I ever get to but I won't be over that.

wyliesdiesels- You're geographically pretty close to us.

So if looking at the wire calcs for 400a, that gives a recommendation of 1500 mcm alum. Would that be something like this?

https://www.wireandcableyourway.com...MIxe7VhsDT7gIVDSCtBh1plQnQEAQYAiABEgJX5PD_BwE

When getting to those conductor sizes it becomes more economical to run parallel conductors. But still getting the cart before the horse, load calc’s are needed, guess’s can get real expensive.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

600a being too much is the first piece of good news so far. I just made some assumptions, thank you for the corrections and happy to be wrong.

A bigger band saw or table saw plus some dust collection. 10hp may be way over what I ever get to but I won't be over that.

wyliesdiesels- You're geographically pretty close to us.

So if looking at the wire calcs for 400a, that gives a recommendation of 1500 mcm alum. Would that be something like this?

https://www.wireandcableyourway.com...MIxe7VhsDT7gIVDSCtBh1plQnQEAQYAiABEgJX5PD_BwE

yes and i have dealt with Profit Gouge and Execute before. But luckily i dont have them for electric service, only gas. (we have our own local public power company)

and no that wire is NOT 1500 mcm. that is 500mcm with a reduced neutral.

 

[250]

When getting to those conductor sizes it becomes more economical to run parallel conductors. But still getting the cart before the horse, load calc’s are needed, guess’s can get real expensive.

parallel conductors would be 2 200a services for example?

 

[Bert_]

parallel conductors would be 2 200a services for example?

Not necessarily. Paralleling refers to running two sets of wires to the same device. Example, (2) 250mcm aluminum cables feeding a 400A service. It doesn't have to be a single wire.

 

[alfredeneuman]

No experience with pg&e. Will they let you install conduit for them to pull in primary and set the transformer at the end?

Possibly.... If the load is 75KVA (312.5A @240V) or more they will set a separate transformer.
The customer is required to install the conduit.
(According to the PG&E Electrical Service Requirements aka "Greenbook")

 

[stevied916]

Depending on where you’re at in the foothills, the ground is very hard. The costs are significantly different digging in clay in ione compared to granite in el dorado hills.

 

[Kaizen]

The 60k is for them to do the engineering, the primary wire and appropriate transformer and pad. Doesn't include trench and conduit.

That’s crazy. What’s there to engineer? I’d call it 400 amps and lay conduit and wire for that. Spend the money on solar and batteries for when they shut you off for a week.


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[250]

That’s crazy. What’s there to engineer? I’d call it 400 amps and lay conduit and wire for that. Spend the money on solar and batteries for when they shut you off for a week.


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That was my reaction, once I was off the phone that is. But when you loose a multi-billion dollar lawsuit, you have to pass it along every way you can. We are planning to do solar, and very likely a battery system but we're a long ways from that. Apparently PG&E use to do this sort of thing for free, boy is that day long gone.

 

[Kaizen]

That was my reaction, once I was off the phone that is. But when you loose a multi-billion dollar lawsuit, you have to pass it along every way you can. We are planning to do solar, and very likely a battery system but we're a long ways from that. Apparently PG&E use to do this sort of thing for free, boy is that day long gone.

Lots of civil engineering firms out there.

Not like this is new stuff. I did my garage electric and took my desired amps and worked backwards. Some good advice above from others. Good luck.


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[nadogail]

IMHO, PG&E (Pacific Gouge and Extortion) is behind the financial eight ball for their culpability in recent fires. They are trying to recover from their losses. They are looking for additional profit centers.

What used to be possible; a scratch on the head, followed by a deep breath and a SWAG, has now become an "Engineering Study" on your nickle.

 

[dcg9381]

That’s crazy. What’s there to engineer? I’d call it 400 amps and lay conduit and wire for that. Spend the money on solar and batteries for when they shut you off for a week.

I agree, 60k to figure out where to put a transformer? The math ain't hard... Have you actually talked to the engineering department?

 

[250]

Here's what I did. I called the number for the building and service center listed on their website. I believe it sends me down to a facility down in Stockton, I talked with a couple different guys down there who were both helpful. I got some basic information, but was told that for any sort of real number, I needed to submit a request for new service and it would then go to the engineering dept and they could pull the info on what equipment was out there, etc etc. I was told that would be free, if someone needed to drive out to the lot then there would be some charges. I ok'd that and waited.

Couple days later I got a call from a Modesto number, guy identified himself as from PG&E and basically said they weren't going to do anything without paying them. Short and sour call. The rest of their 3 wk window expired, and I called my assigned rep to see what the progress was. He apologized for the delay, flagged the request or whatever and sent it over to engineering again.

The follow up call did come pretty quick, w/in 48hrs. To the best of my recollection he was from something at least connected to engineering. He told me (looking at my notes here) I should budget 30k for every 200ft of primary underground service; it doesn't include trench, conduit or pad; does include primary wire and transformer; 6 months to engineer and complete. He did say its not uncommon for people to use the transformer up on the pole, then run it however far themselves to save money.

I can only contribute the quote to their bankruptcy. It's a straight run, with a very gentle slope, and any of the rocks that may or may not be in the ground I'd have to deal with separately anyways. I have no idea what the guy that bought the one behind this one is planning on doing for power because he'd have between 1500 & 2500 ft depending on his build site.

So all of this boils down to trying to figure out what it might cost to run this ourselves without PG&E. No prior experience in the area. Of course, what ever gets figured out now will be 2-3x the expense the way things are going. Just saw 2x4 96inch KD stud for $7.25 at the blue box store. Did my best not to cuss in front of the young impressionable mind that was with me.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

where are you located at in the sierras?

Profit Gouge and Execute does have a yard and office here in town but its all for gas services as we have a local power company...

 

[250]

Sonora

 

[ddawg16]

At that price, you could afford to put in solar with some stationary service.

And considering the location, maybe your own small wind turbine.

Do you have access to natural gas? If so, that takes care of your heating....and as a backup, you could install a NG powered generator.

 

[250]

No natural gas. Closest gas would be way down in the valley. Propane only.

Sonora isn't particularly windy, well not where we are renting anyways. And the property in question is in a little valley so probably no practical.

We're planning on some solar, last I checked the state actually requires it now, but that was several months ago. And we're thinking about what system is best to deal with all the PSPS that happen but that another discussion.

 

[Norcal]

The lack of power is one of pitfalls of living in the boonies, & ever since the Camp Fire, & then other fires have made insurance either impossible, or outrageously expensive, that is another thing to consider.

 

[dcg9381]

We're planning on some solar, last I checked the state actually requires it now, but that was several months ago. And we're thinking about what system is best to deal with all the PSPS that happen but that another discussion.

I don't know what PSPS is, I assume power failure.
I'm a solar installer:
Most solar systems are grid tie and the do NOT provide power when the grid is down. To get one that does, you're looking at something with batteries and some power engineering as even one of the latest Tesla (you can use other) power wall systems provide about as much energy as a moderately sized portable generator and only for a few hours...

Factor in a cost increase of 70% if you want solar to provide off grid power.

Note, what solar WILL do for you is supplement your main feed. IE, if you have 200 amp service, 6KW of solar will give you 200A + 30A available while the sun is out and the grid is up.

In my own home, to deal the power failures, I have a 20KW generator powered by propane. Nothing wrong with batteries - especially the newer stuff that is relatively maintenance free, but they are big cost increases and a generator is a better option for things beyond a few hours of power failure.

Doing a generator with solar requires some engineering too... PM me if you want help going down this path.

 

[250]

Public Safety Power Shutoff. One of PG&E's risk mitigation strategies.

I've looked into solar, some but not exhaustively. Thanks for offer of some technical assistance. I am aware of the restriction that most solar doesn't work when the grid is down. What I like about battery is that if we generate more than we use during the day, we can use it during peak time in the late afternoon and evening instead of selling it to the grid for 10% of what they sell it back for. I haven't talked with anyone that could help validate this idea for me, so all theory, but its theory that I like.

Either way, there will have to be some sort of back up.

 

[250]

The lack of power is one of pitfalls of living in the boonies, & ever since the Camp Fire, & then other fires have made insurance either impossible, or outrageously expensive, that is another thing to consider.

Yeah, seem to be many more pitfalls now than when I grew up in the country. Or maybe we're just a lot softer now.

We've gotten mix responses about the fire insurance. Latest seems to be that State Farm is doing some policies in the area again. The cal fair plan or what ever it is can be really expensive.

And we though a well would be the biggest unknown expense.

 

[HaiKarate]

What used to be possible; a scratch on the head, followed by a deep breath and a SWAG, has now become an "Engineering Study" on your nickle.

I'm guessing the "Engineering Study' is still a SWAG - you're just paying $60k for it now.

 

[dcg9381]

. What I like about battery is that if we generate more than we use during the day, we can use it during peak time in the late afternoon and evening instead of selling it to the grid for 10% of what they sell it back for. I haven't talked with anyone that could help validate this idea for me, so all theory, but its theory that I like.

Either way, there will have to be some sort of back up.

Peak rate time usually correspond with peak solar energy production, but I'm in sunny hot area.

You may look at your utilities policy on solar. Here they "net meter" which means they look at usage / production across the entire month. So as long as I produce, on average, as much as I consume during 30-days, my bill is $0. Essentially they issue a "retail credit" on production. If I over produce, they buy it back at "wholesale".

If your utility net meters and does flat rate power, a battery may be unnecessary (other than power backup).

If you have demand-based rates, I assume that the Tesla battery can be programmed to provide power during peak times and recharge (even if using the grid) when charges are minimal. Those variable rate scenarios are the only ones where a battery will provide additional financial incentive... You can, of course, get several of them to produce enough power for an entire house...

 

[mobetta]

There are some pretty big battery options out there limited only by your budget

depending on your energy needs "off grid" doesn't mean sacrificing much anymore.

Lion energy offers up to 40kwh battery backup 8k/16k inverter

https://lionenergy.com/pages/sanctuary