RV GFI Circuit

[seanb02]

Hey folks, I've posted something similar on an RV forum, but haven't made any progress thus far in finding the issue. Being that it is a GFI circuit it is exactly the same as a house is wired so nothing special to the fact that it is in an RV.

Here is the problem: couple weeks ago the GFI in the bathroom started randomly tripping. Resetting would work for a few days, then finally yesterday it tripped and would only reset for a few seconds before tripping again. Disconnecting the feed to the downstream outlets that are fed through the GFI outlet but leaving the incoming connection to it allows it to reset and work as normal without tripping. Reconnecting the downstream line that it feeds trips it.

Disconnecting each downstream outlet one at a time does not make any difference, still trips right away. Replaced GFI outlet thinking perhaps too sensitive after tripping so many times, still has the same problem. So my thought is it must be the wiring somewhere in between the GFI and the first downstream outlet, however I don't know of any way to figure that out for sure.

This isn't an old trailer, only a year and a half old, no signs of moisture anywhere when removing outlets, no signs of corrosion or burned contacts. I'm not sure where to proceed from here. Any suggestions?

 

[checkthisout]

Hey folks, I've posted something similar on an RV forum, but haven't made any progress thus far in finding the issue. Being that it is a GFI circuit it is exactly the same as a house is wired so nothing special to the fact that it is in an RV.

Here is the problem: couple weeks ago the GFI in the bathroom started randomly tripping. Resetting would work for a few days, then finally yesterday it tripped and would only reset for a few seconds before tripping again. Disconnecting the feed to the downstream outlets that are fed through the GFI outlet but leaving the incoming connection to it allows it to reset and work as normal without tripping. Reconnecting the downstream line that it feeds trips it.

Disconnecting each downstream outlet one at a time does not make any difference, still trips right away. Replaced GFI outlet thinking perhaps too sensitive after tripping so many times, still has the same problem. So my thought is it must be the wiring somewhere in between the GFI and the first downstream outlet, however I don't know of any way to figure that out for sure.

This isn't an old trailer, only a year and a half old, no signs of moisture anywhere when removing outlets, no signs of corrosion or burned contacts. I'm not sure where to proceed from here. Any suggestions?

Sounds like you have it isolated to the wiring between the first outlet and the GFCI.

Offhand, usually the bathroom GFCI feeds the outdoor receptacle(s). Make sure you aren't missing that one during your investigation.

If after making sure it isn't one of the outside receptacles, then it's simply a matter of removing paneling and checking for staples that made it into the wiring.

With the first downstream outlet wiring disconnected and hanging into the air,

And, with the wiring to the first downstream outlet disconnected from the GFCI,

I would take a decent volt/ohmeter and verify continuity between the hot and neutral.

If you have continuity that means there is a short. You can go around and push on the wall where you believe the wiring is located and watch if the resistance changes on the volt/ohmeter. That might help in isolating where the damaged wiring is located.

 

[seanb02]

Sounds like you have it isolated to the wiring between the first outlet and the GFCI.

Offhand, usually the bathroom GFCI feeds the outdoor receptacle(s). Make sure you aren't missing that one during your investigation.

If after making sure it isn't one of the outside receptacles, then it's simply a matter of removing paneling and checking for staples that made it into the wiring.

With the first downstream outlet wiring disconnected and hanging into the air,

And, with the wiring to the first downstream outlet disconnected from the GFCI,

I would take a decent volt/ohmeter and verify continuity between the hot and neutral.

If you have continuity that means there is a short. You can go around and push on the wall where you believe the wiring is located and watch if the resistance changes on the volt/ohmeter. That might help in isolating where the damaged wiring is located.

Thanks, the outdoor outlet is indeed on the GFI circuit, and I have taken that one apart as well, no issues seem to present in that area. The difficult part of this is I have no idea how the wires are routed after they leave the GFI in the bathroom. I also don't know how to take RV wall paneling apart in order to follow the wiring without destroying it perhaps never getting it back together properly.

I'm half tempted to put a standard outlet in place of the GFI and see if it trips the breaker, the GFI just may be too sensitive. But the other side of me says no because even if there is a little bit of current going the wrong direction not enough to trip the breaker it could be creating a fire hazard.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks, the outdoor outlet is indeed on the GFI circuit, and I have taken that one apart as well, no issues seem to present in that area. The difficult part of this is I have no idea how the wires are routed after they leave the GFI in the bathroom. I also don't know how to take RV wall paneling apart in order to follow the wiring without destroying it perhaps never getting it back together properly.

I'm half tempted to put a standard outlet in place of the GFI and see if it trips the breaker, the GFI just may be too sensitive. But the other side of me says no because even if there is a little bit of current going the wrong direction not enough to trip the breaker it could be creating a fire hazard.

i would not replace the GFCI with a standard outlet.

Its tripping for a reason.

 

[MBfreak]

Hallo.
If you do not have a sensitive and accurate meter to measure low AC current ( down to a few mA) and/or a 1000V isolation tester ( aka Megger) I suggest you hire a qualified electrician to pinpoint and repair the leakage current situation.
Please do not remove the GFI function. It trips foe a reason, in order to protect your RV from potentially dangerous leakage currents.

Ola

 

[seanb02]

I'm certainly not going to eliminate the GFI, that was just a side note that I shouldn't have posted.

I do have a good Fluke multimeter, and am quite good with it on DC circuits. But I'm a little bit unsure of myself when trying to do the troubleshooting on an AC circuit. I likely will hire an electrician to take a look at it. He should be able to determine what portion the wire is in at least, and then I can take it to the RV dealer and they can do the actual tearing into the walls.

 

[MBfreak]

A pic from an intermittent earth fault that tripped the GFCI.
A friend replaced the original fuse based panel with a modern MCB andGFCI panel in his house.
The GFCI tripped right away. This was 1997 , the house was built in 1973.
The plastic part is installed to install a light switch in and nailed to an interior door frame riser (4"*2"). When installing the door frame it was nailed to the riser and the genius put one nail at the same heght as the switch box, which had a phase ( black) and neutral ( blue) wire running thru.
The nail had broken the insulation on the phase conductor. Leakage current at 220 V was aroud 15 mA when we measured, before even opening up the box.

Another good reason to use GFCI.

Ola

 

[Captain Spaulding]

Vibration and shoddy wiring practices in a factory where speed is emphasized over quality makes RV wiring a mess. Good chance you have a wire rubbed bare or nicked during installation.

 

[kd3pc]

RVs are also a haven for rodents...I would crawl around and under the cabinets, push outs and so on....doing very good visual, before tackling the finished surfaces.

Get familiar with the "crawl space" of your RV along with the AC and DC panels....those need a very tight visual as well.

 

[matt_i]

The thing that tripped me up was when a bare ground wire touched a side-screw for a neutral wire on the outlet, while stuffing outlets into their junction boxes. A cheap and easy preventative is to tape the outlets' sides, its in a loop that goes under the retainer screws and over the connection screws for the actual wiring.

 

[checkthisout]

I'm certainly not going to eliminate the GFI, that was just a side note that I shouldn't have posted.

I do have a good Fluke multimeter, and am quite good with it on DC circuits. But I'm a little bit unsure of myself when trying to do the troubleshooting on an AC circuit. I likely will hire an electrician to take a look at it. He should be able to determine what portion the wire is in at least, and then I can take it to the RV dealer and they can do the actual tearing into the walls.

Same as diagnosing a short in a DC circuit.

Normally...the wires run up the stud cavity into the ceiling and then through the ceiling hollow over to next stud bay where the next device is located.

Have you done any work on the ceiling? Roof? Etc recently?

Again, I would take your fluke meter and verify continuity between the black and white and black and white and ground.

Once you isolate it as being between black and white or black and ground then start pushing on the walls and ceiling in a systematic manner to see if the resistance changes.

Yes, trailers are a ***** to take apart as the interior paneling goes behind stuff and is actually nailed to most interior parts before the sides are put on.

You can overlay the circuit between the two devices if they happen to be adjacent to a counter space that would allow you to fish new wire.

 

[seanb02]

Same as diagnosing a short in a DC circuit.

Normally...the wires run up the stud cavity into the ceiling and then through the ceiling hollow over to next stud bay where the next device is located.

Have you done any work on the ceiling? Roof? Etc recently?

Again, I would take your fluke meter and verify continuity between the black and white and black and white and ground.

Once you isolate it as being between black and white or black and ground then start pushing on the walls and ceiling in a systematic manner to see if the resistance changes.

Yes, trailers are a ***** to take apart as the interior paneling goes behind stuff and is actually nailed to most interior parts before the sides are put on.

You can overlay the circuit between the two devices if they happen to be adjacent to a counter space that would allow you to fish new wire.

Thanks, I've isolated it as a short from the black to ground. The neutral doesn't seem to be affected. I have not had any recent work done to the trailer, I live in it, but it is only a year and a half old. Without knowing where the wires run in the walls pushing on them isn't going to do me much good.

This isn't a typical cheaper model travel trailer that comes out of a plant in Indiana, it is a well reputed 4 seasons unit manufactured in Oregon, the walls don't have the same flex as the other types do, most things are quite well put together. Apparently other than whatever my issue is, probably an errant staple somewhere.

 

[checkthisout]

Thanks, I've isolated it as a short from the black to ground. The neutral doesn't seem to be affected. I have not had any recent work done to the trailer, I live in it, but it is only a year and a half old. Without knowing where the wires run in the walls pushing on them isn't going to do me much good.

This isn't a typical cheaper model travel trailer that comes out of a plant in Indiana, it is a well reputed 4 seasons unit manufactured in Oregon, the walls don't have the same flex as the other types do, most things are quite well put together. Apparently other than whatever my issue is, probably an errant staple somewhere.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sperry-Lan-WireTracker-Tone-and-Probe-Wire-Tracer-ET64220/202520187

You can trace the wire's path with this tool.

 

[Milton Shaw]

RV is only a year old, Call the RV maker and see if they have wiring diagrams and wire locations. They should have detailed drawings available that would show the diagram. I can understand where they would not have wiring diagrams available on something 20 years old but yours they should have. You may even have something in the storage bins and mechanical under the RV that is on the same circuit. Again RV maker should have.

 

[Perrorojo]

It's not on an inverted circuit is it? The newer GFCI's are very sensitive and are causing lots of issues for inverters.

 

[BackMarker]

Same issue I had. I replaced the cheap RV style outlets with good household outlets.

The RV ones I had they just push the wire into a "V" clip. I replaced them with outlets that have a screw to wrap the wire around making better contact.

 

[dcg9381]

RV is only a year old, Call the RV maker and see if they have wiring diagrams and wire locations. They should have detailed drawings available that would show the diagram. I can understand where they would not have wiring diagrams available on something 20 years old but yours they should have. You may even have something in the storage bins and mechanical under the RV that is on the same circuit. Again RV maker should have.

Mr. Shaw, I giggle at this... And not at you - at all - your assertion is PERFECTLY REASONABLE. But modern RVs are slapped together by employees that are largely paid by assembly line volume. And 80% of the market is locked up by "big players" - it's a volume/margin business. Quality is not a concern - at least for the largest brand (my opinion) as factory mistakes are to be fixed by dealers at a price "warranty repair" rate that the manufacturer gives the dealer...

Wiring diagrams are not provided. And two RVs - same year, make, model, assembled at the same plant on two different months may have completely different wiring.

Yes, some RVs have diagrams - but they are usually the high end - what I call "aircraft quality" manufacturers and they're definitely the exception to the rule.

 

[kd3pc]

dcg is dead on, I do a lot of work on high end boats, sail mostly and like the RV industry, there are drawings but few "assemblers" even see those drawings, let alone know how to read them.

I have owned two RVs, both by "high end" manufacturers...one the roof peeled off in the first year, wrong adhesive...dealer solution was to simply apply box store sealer around the edges and hand it back to me. Factory stood behind that mess. The second is just like this posters, wiring...awful...most of the interior lights were 12v powered and the "inverter" (actually an off brand 12vDC power supply) was just thrown under the finished floor, wire ends never terminated, just twisted and kind of stuck under a screw. The wiring even worse. Main shorepower was incorrectly wired inboard from the plug to the panel, but you never knew unless you ran the Air conditioner and a 12vDC device (fan or light)

 

[checkthisout]

Thanks, I've isolated it as a short from the black to ground. The neutral doesn't seem to be affected. I have not had any recent work done to the trailer, I live in it, but it is only a year and a half old. Without knowing where the wires run in the walls pushing on them isn't going to do me much good.

This isn't a typical cheaper model travel trailer that comes out of a plant in Indiana, it is a well reputed 4 seasons unit manufactured in Oregon, the walls don't have the same flex as the other types do, most things are quite well put together. Apparently other than whatever my issue is, probably an errant staple somewhere.

Artic Fox.

Give them a call. They will be able to tell you how they typically run the wiring between the devices or use the device I gave you a link to.

 

[checkthisout]

dcg is dead on, I do a lot of work on high end boats, sail mostly and like the RV industry, there are drawings but few "assemblers" even see those drawings, let alone know how to read them.

I have owned two RVs, both by "high end" manufacturers...one the roof peeled off in the first year, wrong adhesive...dealer solution was to simply apply box store sealer around the edges and hand it back to me. Factory stood behind that mess. The second is just like this posters, wiring...awful...most of the interior lights were 12v powered and the "inverter" (actually an off brand 12vDC power supply) was just thrown under the finished floor, wire ends never terminated, just twisted and kind of stuck under a screw. The wiring even worse. Main shorepower was incorrectly wired inboard from the plug to the panel, but you never knew unless you ran the Air conditioner and a 12vDC device (fan or light)

People can't afford to pay for the quality they know they are entitled to.

 

[seanb02]

RV is only a year old, Call the RV maker and see if they have wiring diagrams and wire locations. They should have detailed drawings available that would show the diagram. I can understand where they would not have wiring diagrams available on something 20 years old but yours they should have. You may even have something in the storage bins and mechanical under the RV that is on the same circuit. Again RV maker should have.

This is actually the direction the dealer pointed me in, was to contact the manufacturer first, however as others have pointed out with RVs the manufacturer doesn't always have a specific way of running the wiring and such, and can be dependent on the guy doing the installation which can create quite a few variances. But I am definitely going to try contacting them anyway since I don't really have a lot of options at this point.

 

[seanb02]

It's not on an inverted circuit is it? The newer GFCI's are very sensitive and are causing lots of issues for inverters.

I don't think it is inverted, the outlets do not work when the unit is not plugged into shore power or a generator. I think the circuits for the outlets runs separately from the inverted power circuits, but I could be wrong.

 

[seanb02]

Same issue I had. I replaced the cheap RV style outlets with good household outlets.

The RV ones I had they just push the wire into a "V" clip. I replaced them with outlets that have a screw to wrap the wire around making better contact.

I'm not willing to go that route unless there are power boxes that will fit in the walls. The outlets themselves do not appear to be my problem anyway, because with all of them disconnected the GFI does not trip.

Artic Fox.

Give them a call. They will be able to tell you how they typically run the wiring between the devices or use the device I gave you a link to.

Not Arctic Fox, but it is Nash, another Northwood product.

People can't afford to pay for the quality they know they are entitled to.

Northwood does seem to be good quality as far as RVs go, I had one for 10 years prior to this one with no major issues, and it sold 7 years ago for a lot higher price than other travel trailer brands of the same age go for. The quality is there with most things, but as with any product there will be issues here and there no matter what.

 

[seanb02]

Well, the problem appears to be solved. After a call to Northwood they do not have any wiring diagrams for this particular circuit. However he was able to send me information on what is in the circuit. There is a junction box located underneath of the trailer mounted to the floor inside of the frame rail near the slide area that I missed during my diagnosis.

I opened that up and reset the wire nuts and it doesn't trip anymore. My best guess is the GFI being so sensitive was detecting a minor amp draw due to slight condensation build up in the connectors from the wet rainy weather we have been experiencing around here.

It is quite a relief knowing that it isn't an issue with the wiring inside of the walls requiring a very expensive tear down to find the problem. I did make a crude diagram for future reference and troubleshooting if there are any more issues.

 

[checkthisout]

Well, the problem appears to be solved. After a call to Northwood they do not have any wiring diagrams for this particular circuit. However he was able to send me information on what is in the circuit. There is a junction box located underneath of the trailer mounted to the floor inside of the frame rail near the slide area that I missed during my diagnosis.

I opened that up and reset the wire nuts and it doesn't trip anymore. My best guess is the GFI being so sensitive was detecting a minor amp draw due to slight condensation build up in the connectors from the wet rainy weather we have been experiencing around here.

It is quite a relief knowing that it isn't an issue with the wiring inside of the walls requiring a very expensive tear down to find the problem. I did make a crude diagram for future reference and troubleshooting if there are any more issues.

Good job and thanks for the update!

 

[justinthurn]

RV refrigerators and electric water heater elements are notorious for tripping gfi. So if the problem returns, look into those.