S&K vs Snap-On other wrench makers

[SpiderGearsMan]

stanley produces mac , proto and blackhawk
I worked on Stanley street in New Britain ,Ct , yet there was NO MAC TRUCK in the company headquarters
there are bad problems with stanley
Danaher makes craftsman ? they make matco , otc , fluke , kent moore , spx . I thought easco made craftsman

 

[chad s]

Also, it suprises the heck out of me that someone (maybe it *has* happened) hasn't taken a set of Snap-On wrenches to Taiwan and had exact duplicates made for cheap. The prices really are stupid for something as simple as that and a country that can build perfectly fine musical instruments can obviously build lumps of steel in the shape of hand tools at a fairly high level.

Your kidding me right? Incouraging other companies to steal American companies product ideas, patents, techniques, etc, and send it to overseas manufacturing? This is the philosophy that is ruining the American manufacturing business, and quite honestly, it pisses me off. I'll pay for American ideas and quality over stolen asian junk any day.

 

[Fast Orange]

As for the Snap-On /OCC connection,there were some disagreements regarding appearances,licenseing and royalties on SO/OCC merchandise that was sold and given away on SO trucks.If you look at any of the promo stuff on the bike,you won't find any mention of OCC.Even the die cast replica of the bike that SO dealers were distributing had no reference to OCC.If you watched the show for a while after the bike came out,just about every tool in the OCC shop was SO.Rumor was that the "Walrus" wanted big $ for any appearances at SO events,more $ for the use of SO tools on the show and royalties for any bike related merchandise.Since SO wouldn't write any more checks,OCC made a deal with NAPA.

George

 

[-lecroix-]

... then buy the best tools , Snap On of course

... and they are "the best tools" why?

I continue to hear how Snap On tools are "the best tools" ... yet no one here has provided empirical data that shows a Snap On wrench is any better than any other wrench.

I stand by my opinion that purchaser's of NEW Snap On tools are inclined to say they are "the best tools" because they must justify to them selves for over paying for a tool that does the SAME job as a tool that costs half as much.

BTW, I do own some Snap On stuff ...

 

[Spookrider]

MarkH,
My Pappy said "buy right and it will treat you right, buy **** and you **** on."
The "list" I follow on quality is 1-Snap-On, 2-Matco & Mac, 3-S&K, and 4-Craftsman and all other is "****" till tested other wise
I own Craftsman, SK, and Snap-On that inherited from Dads past Carree as car tech from mid fifty to 1990.
I have his CP Air Hammer from '62 and have paper work for it to. I'm to this day.

 

[Uncle Buck]

seriously?

Heck no man, I just pulled that outa my keester!

 

[Spookrider]

Aww, come on, wilby!

This one has been remarkably civil.

In fact, there's very little mention of Craftsman in this thread - and I've even somewhat reccomended a tool-truck brand.

Did the earth stop spinning? Did the poles switch?

Something's wrong!

I started in Craftsman and move to SK. Craftsman fix my old car and they work real fine. Also, I can't say to much bad stuff if I had any(which I don't) about Cft.-Man since they are they are my neighbor dept. at work.
My tool box and the four other car tech and my Dads is from the dept. next to me.

 

[ColdDuckTime]

Your kidding me right? Incouraging other companies to steal American companies product ideas, patents, techniques, etc, and send it to overseas manufacturing? This is the philosophy that is ruining the American manufacturing business, and quite honestly, it pisses me off. I'll pay for American ideas and quality over stolen asian junk any day.

I hear what you are saying, but I can't say that a 1/2" wrench has any intellectual property worth protecting.

The trick for saving the US (at least in 1/2" wrench terms) is to invest in high tech enough manufacturing processes that the unit labor cost is low...well, that and doing direct sales via the web rather than some sort of multi level distribution network with multi levels of profit.

It's fodder for a different thread, but I can't say that 'Asian junk' is the problem, it's a malinvestment in bits of paper (the whole mortgage mess and a fascination in something for nothing via stocks or houses), poor US savings habits (no, an SUV is *not* an investment), and just a general lack of entrepreneurial spirit.

 

[ColdDuckTime]

... and they are "the best tools" why?

I continue to hear how Snap On tools are "the best tools" ... yet no one here has provided empirical data that shows a Snap On wrench is any better than any other wrench.

I stand by my opinion that purchaser's of NEW Snap On tools are inclined to say they are "the best tools" because they must justify to them selves for over paying for a tool that does the SAME job as a tool that costs half as much.

BTW, I do own some Snap On stuff ...

Seriously, that sounds like a great research project. It isn't like the tools themselves cost very much, but designing and building tests would be a really interesting project.

How (fer instance) do you systematically measure how likely a wrench is to round a bolt?

For you guys who have actually broken hand tools (aside from ratchets, I guess), what failures have you seen?

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

From Experience , as far as wrenches go - Snap on has the best chrome , are the lightest , get into the tightest spaces and the flank drive will remove most rotted fasteners that the cheapies will round off , also they look like TIFFANY and co made them . The Flare nut stuff is by far the best . The sockets are the last ones that crack , despite having the thinnest walls , after improper impact gun use the chrome sockets still never crack . I had some 20 year old finally stretch out from 7 day a week abuse , never a warranty question . The screwdrivers double well as prybars , while lesser brands snap . The toolboxes , while obscenely expensive are built with the security of san quentin . I would not buy a snap on tool box again , I would buy the tools again . Most big dollar professionals depend on Snap On and regard the dealers as friends , anything breaks , I have it that night , if he has it , and he usually does .

 

[ColdDuckTime]

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/bucketboss/DSC00897.jpg

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200309461_200309461

Preeettty subtle differences here.

I think it's time to actually test this stuff. OK...so what is a set of measurable/repeatable tests you could apply to these things? Failure on a ratchet seems like a no brainer. You could measure the opening size, but I'm not sure what is optimal given that fasteners will also vary. Is there an optimal rigidity to the material or is stiffer better (now, now...you know what I mean).

 

[wilbilt]

Aww, come on, wilby!

This one has been remarkably civil.

In fact, there's very little mention of Craftsman in this thread - and I've even somewhat reccomended a tool-truck brand.

Did the earth stop spinning? Did the poles switch?

Something's wrong!

I dunno. I'm trying to be the "less angry, more tolerant version" of myself. I am going to have a heart attack stressing on the whole "Asian Invasion" thing.

Arguing about which tool is better is no fun any more. It used to be that 20 years of experience using them meant something. Now, the internet generation wants cold, hard data, and I am not equipped to provide it. I could tell them to buy one set of each brand and use them 6 days a week for a year, but that tactic won't fly in these days of instant gratification.

What I have been noticing a lot with younger people recently is that they will argue the merits of "whatever" based on the manufacturer's specs and PC-generated extrapolations. It seems like actual use is irrelevant.

Anyway, most of you know where I stand regarding tool brands and warranty issues. I'm trying to avoid having a stroke over this ****, but reserve the right to dive in at any time....

Munch...munch...munch...

 

[kartracer55]

YES. For alignments I would go one of two routes. Old Industrial brands where the jaws are like 3/8 wide, OR snap On. They definetly spread less, and you will see this when your literally hanging on a wrench to break a tie rod end nut free. For most other things Its Not a big deal. MAtco XL wrenches tend to slip right around the hex of the tie rod itself, almost every time. I have never broken a name brand wrench before, but I have watched many spread. Matco Open ends simply spread more than Snap On.

Jim

 

[ColdDuckTime]

What I have been noticing a lot with younger people recently is that they will argue the merits of "whatever" based on the manufacturer's specs and PC-generated extrapolations. It seems like actual use is irrelevant.


Munch...munch...munch...

Just putting some more popcorn in the kettle....

I'll grant you that everyone is an internet instant expert these days, just view the heartfelt arguments pro and con on current major political issues...all stated by people who have *no* direct experience in Washington or in policy making of any type. Go figure.

On the other hand, as an engineer, you'd be suprised how often I run into highly experienced end users whose views of the products are based on pixie dust and just sheer momentum of opinion...and this is on stuff that's a fair amount more expensive than most tools, let's say roughly equivalent to the most expensive piece of test equipment that you'll see in a stealership.

I think it would be really interesting to actually measure this stuff. You could put together a really great tool oriented website if you actually broke screwdrivers and measured the output of a cordless drill...the thing is, it might be hard to sell advertisements.

 

[Uncle Buck]

YES. For alignments I would go one of two routes. Old Industrial brands where the jaws are like 3/8 wide, OR snap On. They definetly spread less, and you will see this when your literally hanging on a wrench to break a tie rod end nut free. For most other things Its Not a big deal. MAtco XL wrenches tend to slip right around the hex of the tie rod itself, almost every time. I have never broken a name brand wrench before, but I have watched many spread. Matco Open ends simply spread more than Snap On.

Jim

In all my years of wrenching I doubt I have spread an open end wrench. Mind you I know that open end wrenches can be spread, but I am of the opinion that if you are spreading the open end on your wrenches, as in often, you are either abusing them (no need to hang on wrenches, that is when you use the torch to heat your parts, work smarter) or you picked the wrong tool to do the job in the first place! Really, no offense intended Jim but for all the guys on this board that talk about spreading the open ends on wrenches, (regardless of brand) I think they missed a lesson or two in basic mechanic work. It really does not matter to me if every guy talking about spreading open ends is a paid wrench either cause I would not allow about 80% of those butchers within a stones throw of my car or trucks. Just my two cents.

 

[kythri]

Your kidding me right? Incouraging other companies to steal American companies product ideas, patents, techniques, etc, and send it to overseas manufacturing? This is the philosophy that is ruining the American manufacturing business, and quite honestly, it pisses me off. I'll pay for American ideas and quality over stolen asian junk any day.

No, the philosophy that's ruining the American manufacturing business is price-gouging, a'la the tool trucks.

There's more to it than that, of course, but even if all of of the tool-truck stuff is made in the United States (and it isn't), the prices are friggin' ridiculous.

Is it any surprise that when patents run out, EVERYONE jumps on them?

I heard the original "Flank Drive" patent ran out - I'm seriously hoping to start seeing it on other brands soon.

I'm all for rewarding unique ideas, but not when that unique idea is used to bend me over a barrel.

 

[eschoendorff]

I heard the original "Flank Drive" patent ran out - I'm seriously hoping to start seeing it on other brands soon.

It's already happened. Everyone from Harbor Freight to MAtco and MAC uses it.

 

[kythri]

It's already happened. Everyone from Harbor Freight to MAtco and MAC uses it.

OK, let me rephrase.

I hope to start seeing it on Craftsman stuff soon.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

get what you pay for

 

[tweety652]

OK, let me rephrase.

I hope to start seeing it on Craftsman stuff soon.

it already is. the radius corners on the sockets. you may be thinking of the flank-plus deal on the wrenches(open end with grooves to grab nut/bolt better)

 

[kythri]

Yeah, I was thinking more specifically about the open end wrenches.

I'm one of the naysayers that doesn't see it as a major benefit, I just think it would be neat to have it on the wrenches to piss off the Snappy-addicts.

 

[tweety652]

ive always wondered aboud dipping a wrench in valve grinding compound on those tough bolts just to see if it would help.

 

[kartracer55]

In all my years of wrenching I doubt I have spread an open end wrench. Mind you I know that open end wrenches can be spread, but I am of the opinion that if you are spreading the open end on your wrenches, as in often, you are either abusing them (no need to hang on wrenches, that is when you use the torch to heat your parts, work smarter) or you picked the wrong tool to do the job in the first place! Really, no offense intended Jim but for all the guys on this board that talk about spreading the open ends on wrenches, (regardless of brand) I think they missed a lesson or two in basic mechanic work. It really does not matter to me if every guy talking about spreading open ends is a paid wrench either cause I would not allow about 80% of those butchers within a stones throw of my car or trucks. Just my two cents.

I do agree, and Im a big advocate of PBBlaster and the torch, However some parts simply must not be heated due to having rubber components too close to them, especially on new cars which use plastic where there really shouldnt be any plastic.

 

[oldgoat]

I like SK, but mine are about 40 years old also. Have Craftsman and some of the other name brands and some Harbor Freight lately. My opinion has been to get good name brand ones for the ones you will use the most. I think even the Craftsman pro is pretty good. Myself I don't like the Snapon wrenches because they are too thin and are uncomfortable when pulling hard and the ratchets with the rubber handles will break the end off because the handle doesn't go all the way through. One big deciding factor besides cost would be the dealer. No matter which brand you get if the dealer isn't going to make good on a tool then it isn't worth that much.

 

[MAD]

If you use your tools all day every day you will break some regardless of what brand they are. I have Snap-on, SK, Klein, and Craftsman Pro Screwdrivers in my shop right now with worn out and broken tips. They are all good and they all break. Buy the ones you like the best.

I have most of the major brands of combination wrenches (although only a few Snap-on) I would buy S-Ks again in a heart beat. They are strong, durable and comfortable, while still being quite thin for access to confined fasteners. Try to get your hands on a few of the major brand wrenches and see how you like the feel of them. I personally think the newer Mac knuckle saver wrenches are like wrenching with a knife blade in your hand.

I prefer the SK Pro series ratchets over My Snap-on ratchets. I do not own any recent vintage snap-ons (bought mine in the mid 1980s) or any of the newer style SKs so I will not say one brand is better. But my SKs have not broken or slipped like my Snap-ons and I like the action better. I have one SK Wayne era 3/8" ratchet that looks like it was through a war and still has the original guts in it. The Sk standard ratchets in the common sizes that come in the sets are very common in the used market and can often be had for $5-$10 even in like new condition. Again try some if you can, and decide for your self. People like different ratchets for different reasons I like the SK pro series round head ratchets because they are strong, smooth and cheap. But the heads on the 3/8" and 1/2" ones are a little bulky sometimes.

Best of luck in the automotive repair field. Personally I am glad I spent a little time doing that myself but I am also very glad not to be making my living that way now. My hat is off to any of you guys that were able to stay at it for more than a few years.

 

[caspian65]

I'm a weekend "wrencher" and work on old cars as a hobby. Used Craftsman tools for 15 years, suited me just fine. About 3 years ago, my tools were looking pretty beat up, so I bought a krl series triple bank snap-on box and have now maxed it out with pretty much all snap-on tools. For me, the biggest difference is in "feel" quality. The snap-on stuff just feels better in my hands when wrenching compared to the craftsman. As for durability, I'm sure the snap-on stuff probably is not much better than any other brand. As far as appearance, the snap-on stuff definitely is superior in the "looks purty" department.

It pretty much comes down to your own personal preference and whatever works best for you. Even in my limited use, I have broken a few screwdriver tips and had other tool failures. Snap-on guy is very good though and takes care of us.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

You kids want to know about how great working on cars is ? Go to needtechs.com and look over the resumes techs post to escape the horrors they are stuck in , for other horrors in different stores . How the flat rate system destroys a spirit . UTIWYOTECHLINCOLNTECH , all the same , attracting your massive government finanaced student loans is what it is all about . Or that you can work on Nextel Cup Cars , Porssche , ferraris etc for six figure incomes . Nah , when you get out of school , you will be hired on to a job that has no pay , unless you rip off customers with uneeded , chemical flushes that don't really do anything , except vacuum the customers pocketbook and get your boss a nice cash kickback . Even if you make 25 dollars a week , you are required to buy your own tools , as even the most generous fellow employee gets tired of loaning his twenty year old stuff . Do yourself a favor , instead of having daddy pay for a school , have him buy you rental property and use the lot for a hot dog truck . at least you will make money .

 

[-lecroix-]

hey fairlaneman ... why the new screen name?

 

[eschoendorff]

You kids want to know about how great working on cars is ? Go to needtechs.com and look over the resumes techs post to escape the horrors they are stuck in , for other horrors in different stores . How the flat rate system destroys a spirit . UTIWYOTECHLINCOLNTECH , all the same , attracting your massive government finanaced student loans is what it is all about . Or that you can work on Nextel Cup Cars , Porssche , ferraris etc for six figure incomes . Nah , when you get out of school , you will be hired on to a job that has no pay , unless you rip off customers with uneeded , chemical flushes that don't really do anything , except vacuum the customers pocketbook and get your boss a nice cash kickback . Even if you make 25 dollars a week , you are required to buy your own tools , as even the most generous fellow employee gets tired of loaning his twenty year old stuff . Do yourself a favor , instead of having daddy pay for a school , have him buy you rental property and use the lot for a hot dog truck . at least you will make money .

Damn. A heavy dose of truth. Sad, but really true.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

Sorry to weave such a sad tale , change must occur .Judging by the lack of youngsters in the shop , kids these days are getting smart . Must be the computer games .

 

[TNToy]

... and they are "the best tools" why?

I continue to hear how Snap On tools are "the best tools" ... yet no one here has provided empirical data that shows a Snap On wrench is any better than any other wrench.

I stand by my opinion that purchaser's of NEW Snap On tools are inclined to say they are "the best tools" because they must justify to them selves for over paying for a tool that does the SAME job as a tool that costs half as much.

I paid less for the Snap-On's I use for alignments than you can buy a set of Craftsman pro's for brand new.

And if I were going to do it again? I'd buy Snap-On in a heart beat.

I started with raised-panel Craftsman's in this business. Got really tired of bleeding when the jaws spread, or rounding things off.

Tried Matco's with similar results to Karty. Better, but not as good as the Snappys I was borrowing.

I don't really care if you believe me. If you want convinced, come join our ****-*** profession for a month, and you'll be convinced. I like tools that keep me from hurting myself and rounding things off. That's it.

If you don't believe Snap-On is better, that's fine. But you don't have the horrible cussing experiences cheap wrenches generate when you're bleeding or breaking parts on customers cars, and we do. So stop trying so hard to convince people that you're not wrong.

Do most casual wrench-turners need Snap-On? Absolutely not, and I wouldn't have any of it if I didn't do this **** for a living.

But it's still better.

 

[TNToy]

I am of the opinion that if you are spreading the open end on your wrenches, as in often, you are either abusing them (no need to hang on wrenches, that is when you use the torch to heat your parts, work smarter) or you picked the wrong tool to do the job in the first place! Really, no offense intended Jim but for all the guys on this board that talk about spreading the open ends on wrenches, (regardless of brand) I think they missed a lesson or two in basic mechanic work.

Oh, on my own vehicle it wouldn't be an issue. I'd take a while to get the parts on and off very carefully, soak 'em in penetrating oil for a couple of days, etc, etc...

Go read what SpiderGears said about the flat-rate system, because it's true. We don't get to fix cars 'right' and we don't get to take our time. We have to fix cars fast. An alignment can't really take more than 30 minutes at our shop if you want to make a decent paycheck.

...So you have to make it happen. Good wrenches make all the difference when you have to apply 150 ft/lbs to the open end of a 21mm wrench. Are you "supposed" to do that? No. That's what the box end is for. But I'm willing to bet you haven't done any alignments, either. Or at least not very many. Because there's really no other way to do it.

If think you can get the box end of a wrench onto the jam nut, I want to come watch.

 

[eschoendorff]

Oh, on my own vehicle it wouldn't be an issue. I'd take a while to get the parts on and off very carefully, soak 'em in penetrating oil for a couple of days, etc, etc...

Go read what SpiderGears said about the flat-rate system, because it's true. We don't get to fix cars 'right' and we don't get to take our time. We have to fix cars fast. An alignment can't really take more than 30 minutes at our shop if you want to make a decent paycheck.

...So you have to make it happen. Good wrenches make all the difference when you have to apply 150 ft/lbs to the open end of a 21mm wrench. Are you "supposed" to do that? No. That's what the box end is for. But I'm willing to bet you haven't done any alignments, either. Or at least not very many. Because there's really no other way to do it.

If think you can get the box end of a wrench onto the jam nut, I want to come watch.

Aint that the truth. A local collision shop owner did an alignment on my C4 Corvette. It was an after hours job and he spent about 2 hours getting everything just right. It was a labor of passion.... definitely not a money-making venture. But then again I am lucky enough to live near some wrenches who are also enthusiasts...

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

I hoped you tipped the guy more than a cup of coffee

 

[-lecroix-]

I love how those that worship and pay their weekly tithe at the Altar of Snap On get so vocal and irate when someone questions their faith.

There is one area that I give Snap On credit at being better than their competitors ... MARKETING.

 

[TNToy]

...And I love how you insist the only difference IS the marketing.

I mean, you have seriously have to think of us as morons. Morons who love to throw money at guys just because their trucks are full of shiny things.

Guess what? I'm always going to find that condescending attitude highly insulting. It's the reason I really don't like you. Or at least the person you appear to be judging by your posts.

THAT'S the reason the pro-wrenches get so wound up by these threads. We couldn't care less what the weekend warriors think about Snappy, because we know what's working for us, and that's what we'll continue to buy.

Believe me, I would LOVE to be able to FILL my box with $5,000 worth of cheap Craftsman, Stanley, and Husky tools and be done with the tool buying process.

I've got a stroker motor, an AR-15, and an AK-47 I need to be building with my expendable income. ...And my primary weapon for Action-Pistol matches needs a $200 rebuild as well. Oh, and a house that needs it's fair share of the dough.

But when you use tools all day long, you buy the cheapest one that will last for 20 years of daily abuse... Or can be warrantied whenever it breaks no-questions-asked. Anything else is a waste of money.

How do we know? Well, pretty much everyone starts in this business with a car-enthusiasts collection of "garage quality" tools. Mine were pretty much all Husky, Craftsman, and Pittsburgh/Harbor Freight. As they broke ,or failed, or repeatedly failed to remove the most stubborn of fasteners, they got replaced whenever I could afford it.

And for some reason, a box full of Matco, Mac, and Snap-On makes for a much smoother project than a box full of cheap stuff.

(That said, I'm growing fonder and fonder of Craftsman Professional tools for some uses.)

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

one doesn't want to pay labor costs , yet one expects his customer to pay top dollar for his labor , interesting grasshopper

economics 101

 

[kartracer55]

...And I love how you insist the only difference IS the marketing.

I mean, you have seriously have to think of us as morons. Morons who love to throw money at guys just because their trucks are full of shiny things.

Guess what? I'm always going to find that condescending attitude highly insulting. It's the reason I really don't like you. Or at least the person you appear to be judging by your posts.

THAT'S the reason the pro-wrenches get so wound up by these threads. We couldn't care less what the weekend warriors think about Snappy, because we know what's working for us, and that's what we'll continue to buy.

Believe me, I would LOVE to be able to FILL my box with $5,000 worth of cheap Craftsman, Stanley, and Husky tools and be done with the tool buying process.

I've got a stroker motor, an AR-15, and an AK-47 I need to be building with my expendable income. Oh, and a house that needs it's fair share of the dough.

But when you use tools all day long, you buy the cheapest one that will last for 20 years of daily abuse... Or can be warrantied whenever it breaks no-questions-asked. Anything else is a waste of money.

I think he nailed it, and Im just a kid. As he mentioned earlier, tool abuse is sometimes necessary to get a job done quickly and efficiently when your on the clock. At home I NEVER abuse my tools, because I have all the time in the world to take a little extra apart here and there. Not the case at work. Im guilty of straight up abuse at times, and I will admit it. For example I had to replace some powersteering lines on this old dodge. No room to get my hand on a wrench to push up, so I snuck a pry bar in there and pryed the wrench to break it free so I could spin it off with my hand. Conventional? No. Abuse? Yes. BUT It sure beats dropping the rack to change the lines and it got the job done with no ill affects and I beat book time as well as warranty time.

Jim

 

[TNToy]

one doesn't want to pay labor costs , yet one expects his customer to pay top dollar for his labor , interesting grasshopper

economics 101

What?

Did you forget to "quote" someone a few posts up?

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

must have missed it , I just find it funny where some lowball one industry , yet they are getting paid what they deserve , with 4 year degrees from one of the random colleges the countyside is littered wth . What happened when the help desk got outsourced to 45 cent an hour motherf***ers in some good awful place or the temp visas microsoft secures to avoid paying video gamers 75 dollars an hour to engineer software ? Its is the elites vxs the real people , the real people have been on the losing end since the sixties , the elites are starting to get downsized , and not liking it .