Sad Day

[MD11]

I suspect that Apple is having their high end products assembled in the US by contract manufacturers like Solectron, Sanmina and Flextronics. All 3 of these companies are located in the SF bay area and in the past have built xboxes, phones whatever. Maybe Apple is doing this to protect intellectual property or maybe they are doing it to increase capacity and/or quickly meet Christmas demand so that they dont end up with a bunch of product sitting on a cargo ship off of Long Beach... or almost as bad, having to air ship product from Asia to meet contract obligations set by retailers like Walmart.

Did you know, a few years ago there were so many cargo ships coming into long beach that toys were late for delivery to retailers! Whoever made the tickle me elmo doll had to fed ex product to Walmart or face serious non-delivery-means-you-will-pay-big clauses in the contracts. LOL!!! All that money saved by going off shore manufacturing was sucked up in expedite shipping fees to meet Wal mart contracts. Walmart got paid for product whether it was on their shelf or not! Maybe Apple doesnt want to be in the same situation...

My MacPro was assembled in the USA, but sadly my $4300 MacBook Pro laptop is from China.. as is my iPhone.. Apple is one of the most socially responsible of the supercorporations... I know they recently left the US Chamber of Commerce due to the stand they took on slave and child labor laws that are working their way thru congress..

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/27935.html

I think it's hard for a company to go it alone and make a product such as a computer in the USA only or electronics as the consumer is so price sensitive... it's not to excuse Apple, but I think they make a far better attempt to keep more of the value added labor in the US. The other thing to consider is that Apple sells a LOT of iPhones and Mac in China and other countries, so if it manufactures a lot of it's products over seas, that almost makes sense. Snap On sells the majority of it's tools in the US, and some in the EU and Australia and NZ... I am certain that the majority of tools sold in China are sourced in China... it's apples to oranges.

 

[autoace]

We all miss a point though. Here is an example, were our USA products, up to snuff accross the board?

i.e. I'll use Cornwell for an example, are they making the best tools they can right now? The answer is no, the quality varies from tool to tool. This is a direct result of lazy, complacent employees, just going through the motions, at least alot of the employees of the company. Cornwell deserves to lose sales to say Wright(USA) or GearWrench (Taiwan/PRC), because they are serving a steaming turd of a product alot of times. They would be upset to lose their jobs to overseas. But they are not doing the jobs they have well.

American mentality has to change, one should do the best job they can, put in the effort, and stop being lazy IMHO.

Just because it is made in the USA, does not mean it is a good product unfortunately, we should have the pride to make it the best we can.

We are all paying for decades of slouching.

Craftsman tools are basically just going away. The ones made in the USA are becoming junk, sales probably lower, because of the poor quality, I have passed up alot of Cman tools for GearWrench lately, who wants to goto Sears every time they buy a defective tool, to trade for another poor excuse? If quality was up, they would be such a solid brand, there would be no need to go overseas.

I get on the Cornwell truck and the re-labeled tools from Taiwan and PRC have very nice consitent finishes and plating (high end Asian tools), the more expensive USA tools next to them are full of defects!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Could it be American management, employee entitlement, laziness, and alot of American workers living beyond their means helped cause this?????

I don't know, but quality seems to have taken a back seat many years ago here in the USA, maybe that had alot to do with it. What we are losing isn't anything to be proud of anymore, especially with Craftsman tools, maybe in the long run, a lesson will be learned by many.

 

[MD11]

American mentality has to change, one should do the best job they can, put in the effort, and stop being lazy IMHO.

I agree with this, but keep in mind... the quality of a product isn't so much the result of whether the worker puts his best into it's craftsmanship as it is the engineering and the amount of QC done on it. The crappy cars of the 1970's and 80's (and some 90's) made in the US weren't crappy because of the assembly line worker's worth ethic, it was the crappy design, and low budget plastics, and chassis engineering that made them the turds they were and that sent the American car makers behind even the (at that time) lagging Japanese.

I own some of the finest example of American craftsmanship from my Fender Custom Shop Jazz basses, to a Martin D45V guitar all 100% made in the USA (with some woods from Brazil).. I own a BMW X5 that was assembled in North Carolina but the engineering, and materials came from Germany and the choice of those materials was top notch for the price range of the vehicle.. so those are all proof (in my eyes) that it's not the skill level of the American worker that is the problem, but rather the resolve of American managers to make the best product they can.

In Japan, and the EU, most CEO's are promoted from with in their company and take tremendous pride in their companies. They think LONG term, out to 10 and 20 year horizons... in the US, the CEO thinks quarter to quarter, and 1st about his bonus check, and 2nd about the long term reputation of his company.. THERE lies the difference.. not the American worker.

 

[Merkava_4]

I'll use Cornwell for an example, are they making the best tools they can right now? The answer is no, the quality varies from tool to tool. This is a direct result of lazy, complacent employees, just going through the motions, at least alot of the employees of the company.

If I was their employee, I'd spend all day on one wrench. I would pour my heart into making that wrench with loving precision and when it came time to send it down the line, I'd be terribly sad to let it go.

 

[Art From De Leon]

When I worked in Japan, the first thing I noticed was all the people still working in their offices at 8 PM, and the next thing was the daily calithenstics that the employees did, and I concluded right there and then that the Japanese would come out the winner in the competition.

Now, name me ONE American worker that would willingly do this without having a **** hemmorage, I know I wouldn't then, or now.

 

[gatewaysysop]

If Sears decides, like their Canadian stores to go all China, all the time with Craftsman, I'm done with them.

Meh, why wait? At the very least, I am not going to buy anything that I have even the slightest chance of having to replace in the near future under warranty. I'm not paying for US made so I can get a PRC replacement this time next year.

I already have most of the wrenches I need/want from Craftsman and I typically don't break those, so I'm not worried there. Good thing since I saw a thread about them being thinner now or something (what ever came of that?).

Things like pliers or screwdrivers, or even hex and torx bits, I'm going to go elsewhere if I need anything new.

 

[NAYLOR]

If I was their employee, I'd spend all day on one wrench. I would pour my heart into making that wrench with loving precision and when it came time to send it down the line, I'd be terribly sad to let it go.

8 hours x ~&70 shop overhead + material cost + profit margin = $1200 combo wrench! Put me down for two!

 

[MD11]

When I worked in Japan, the first thing I noticed was all the people still working in their offices at 8 PM, and the next thing was the daily calithenstics that the employees did, and I concluded right there and then that the Japanese would come out the winner in the competition.

Now, name me ONE American worker that would willingly do this without having a **** hemmorage, I know I wouldn't then, or now.

Ok then, riddle me this.. How is it that France, Germany, Switzerland, Holland and Denmark all of which have laws against working longer than 40 hours a week (in france, it's 35).. and all of whom take 30 days vacation a year, etc etc... manage to make top notch products, and sustain vibrant and strong economies ??... and add to this, massive social programs from medical to retirement... And please don't repeat that broken mantra about them being broke, it's false; they're anything but. We've got FAR more debt per capita than any citizen of the EU.

How?

 

[MD11]

Things like pliers or screwdrivers, or even hex and torx bits, I'm going to go elsewhere if I need anything new.

Actually Sears carries Knipex pliers, which are German made and about as good a plier as you're going to find.. and I recently posted about PB Swiss' bits and screw drivers... they're competitively priced, top notch, and Swiss made. Like I said before, for wrenches, ratchets and sockets, you're hard pressed to get better stuff than Snapon, but who knows, maybe they too are cooking up a plan to send production to PRC.

 

[fordbroncodave]

Until somebody says, "melt all the effing Asian tools."

i say melt all the effing asian tools lol

 

[speed bump]

If I was their employee, I'd spend all day on one wrench. I would pour my heart into making that wrench with loving precision and when it came time to send it down the line, I'd be terribly sad to let it go.

Thats why union labor is so unpopular guys that spend one day doing one 10 seconds job. Lets see if you made one $200 wrench I might pay you $5 for the time into it (maybe we can pay that, we have to decide on power costs, bribing the EPA and the motherfucking lawyers, taxes, wages, raw materials from china (because we don't have the power to do the refining here), and of course the horrible thing called profit). The trick with any manufacturing process is feeding every barking pitbull and still get a piece of meat for yourself. so you have an order of hiearchy:
1.) Shareholders: these guys bankroll your operation and without them it doesn't matter if you product is the best in the world chances are you won't have the capital to get it out
2.) The goverment and the lawyers: as soon as you have any money or want to do anything these fuckers are there for as much of a slice as they can get
3.) Your suppliers: piss these guys off for long and it doesn't matter how good your product is you can't make it.
4.) The consumer: He looks at it for marketing and value and if the product is of passable quality (generally this is important if you want repeat customers)
5.) Your development people becuase if your product doesn't stay fresh then people move onto what is fresh
6.)Your workers: I hate to tell you guys this but for most of the skill required in making tools the workers are very replacable and you can probably get as many as you want at $12-15 an hour with no benefits through the local job service. The most important guys are the people that do the development, marketing, managing, and maybe maintance depending on your operation.

The goal is fast efficient operation, without a large amount of overhead. Retooling a foundry in the US requires an act of congress, 47 stupid lawyers, and 14 enviornmental statements before you begin. Retooling a foundry in China requires: Designing the plant for what you want and purchasing the equipment.

 

[tj90]

All this talk about chinese c-man prompted me to stop by Sears on the way home tonight. We all know that Sears pushes the gimmicky tools at Christmas and this year is no exception. The dogbone wrench, open end with the ding-dong appendage, black spline wrench and elbow ratcheting wrench is the line-up. Every single one of these wrenches has a place on the end-cap right in front of the tool department. All made in china. Honestly, I wasnt impressed with the finish of any of the items. The elbow chrome dipping did not look as good as the C-man pro or GW. The price range is all over the place from 19 for the splines that all you went crazy for to $60 for the ding-dong open end ratchets.

As I was leaving the end-cap - with nothing to buy - a woman and daughter swept in behind me to look at the tools which Im assuming was for a gift (poor mechanic!)

Im starting to think about all this talk about c-man moving to PRC and abandoning US manufacturing may be overblown. Its unfortunate that their new gimmicky tools are not made in the US, but all these tools will be one-hit wonders anyway.

I wanted to tell the lady and daughter that the recipient of the tool gift would appreciate it if you walk past the colorful cardboard background of the end cap and buy the US made c-man wrenches a little further down the aisle....

Speaking of gimmicks, does anyone own these? I have a set received as a gift years ago (someone falling prey to the c-man tool gimmick again) and never could find an application to use them on. They are made in the US, but who cares?! Bob Villa may have pushed these at the time, Bob could shove 'em up his ...

 

[american lockpicker]

I have some craftsman pliers that look like that... A few years back I had some craftsman needle nose pliers that were broke so I took them back for an exchange. New ones were $15 dollars and they said that was too high so I had to pick something cheaper so I went with a pair of riveted metal pliers they were USA made but I don't use them.

 

[tj90]

I have some craftsman pliers that look like that... A few years back I had some craftsman needle nose pliers that were broke so I took them back for an exchange. New ones were $15 dollars and they said that was too high so I had to pick something cheaper so I went with a pair of riveted metal pliers they were USA made but I don't use them.

You must be talking about the robogrip pliers. I have those too, but I actually like them alot! BTW, they are US made too!

 

[american lockpicker]

No although I got my dad a set of those when they first came out I like them but they are no longer made in USA... I'll get a picture of what I'm talking about.

 

[american lockpicker]

These broke.

I got these(3rd one) in exchange.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00945744000P

 

[wrenchr]

If I was their employee, I'd spend all day on one wrench. I would pour my heart into making that wrench with loving precision and when it came time to send it down the line, I'd be terribly sad to let it go.

On your 2nd day they'd ship off manufacturing to china!!!

 

[back2class]

Yeah, I got a brand new SNAP-On needle nose plier a few weeks back. What a piece of **** compaired to my older snap-on unit! Rough grinds, slightly uneaven surfaces, just plain unrefined. Looked like a real turd next to an older one from the 70's. It was a real reminder of how things have changed even in the usa made stuff.

I am starting to think better stuff is comming from Chiwan a good number of times. Labor costs are too high, so tool quality is cut on those USA made tools in many instances just to stay at a pricepoint but keep the USA stamp.

 

[Here2Learn]

Excellent point, back2class. Manufacturers are giving up something to compete in a market.

I think it was Mickey_O who posted some 50 years old or so ads for tools. I doubt that many people would be able to post a GearWrench ad or similar from back then. These are the times we live on.

When your grandfather or father bought a tool from Sears "back then", there was no GearWrench or similar. It was all butter soft junk. That was then. This is now. I have to say there is no need to post yet another thread about "the good old days".

 

[t100]

the BEST tool America has ever made is called "free market". it will all right out itself, just add time.

suggestion for Chadster1:

if you have other skills which can support you and the family, put all your money down on some hard line U.S. made SO tools, sell all the rest. shut your tool business down, lock your tools up in a bunker. then start a new career, 30 years later, all your mother load of brand new old stock tools would be worth more than gold.

just a little thought.

 

[harrycaul]

Went to Sears yesterday. The tool dept. now occupies half the floor real estate it did before (replaced by washers/fridges). Saw the PRC Craftsman tools, as well as Craftsman items with no discernible country of origin on the box. 2 years from now it'll be all Chinese **** if there's a tool dept. at all.

 

[theamcaddict]

I've got a couple sets of the C man standard (non flexible) reversible ratchet wrenches,USA made,had them about 12 years and worked the hell out of them,day in day out with not one problem. If this applies to them as well,I won't bother taking them back when I do get a failure. I'll just replace it with a S O or Armstrong and call it done. That is, if they haven't outsourced by then.

I totally agree!

I was actually thinking about this the other day when I had to warranty a breaker bar (what if the new ones are made overseas?). My replacement turned out to be american made, but it still crossed my mind. I've been buying SK lately anyway and I'm gonna be on the Snap on bandwagon soon so hopefully they are going to still make their stuff here.

Low quality foreign tools

 

[fordcragar]

One way to look at this, the old tools will be appreciating in value.

Then people will say, why buy the old stuff, when the new stuff is so much cheaper.

 

[benjamming]

We all miss a point though. Here is an example, were our USA products, up to snuff accross the board?

i.e. I'll use Cornwell for an example, are they making the best tools they can right now? The answer is no, the quality varies from tool to tool. This is a direct result of lazy, complacent employees, just going through the motions, at least alot of the employees of the company. Cornwell deserves to lose sales to say Wright(USA) or GearWrench (Taiwan/PRC), because they are serving a steaming turd of a product alot of times. They would be upset to lose their jobs to overseas. But they are not doing the jobs they have well.

In addition to what MD11 said, the chrome plating may be bad b/c management won't let engineering/operations clean the plating tank when it needed causing defects. They then tell QA to let it pass, etc. etc.

I agree with you that just b/c something is made in USA doesn't guarantee anything really.

 

[benjamming]

Off topic but....

The rest of the christmas gifts - random toys (except for legos) and blanket are all made in China. ***** that many times there is no option...

Maybe the best way to combat this love affair that the US consumer has with China is to stop buying all this ****! Quality vs quantity....

I snipped up your post but I don't think that I changed the meaning any.

There are always options. Many made in USA items are only available online so maybe you meant that made in USA isn't an option for walk-in stores. Here are a couple examples. I have dozens more just in my browser favorites folder.

http://www.toysmadeinamerica.com/
http://www.toysofusa.com/

 

[SocketDeviler]

Went to Sears today for the first time in months. Right away I saw the Chinese made wrenches. They were displayed at the head of the isle. A sad sight. I kept looking at the package for the familiar Made In USA logo but it was not there, flipped a wrench over to see "China" stamped on it.
The place was dead. Not much in the way of tool sales. I wound up getting a USA made Craftsman gasket scraper. Nice quality. Figured I should get it while I can.

 

[arkangel06]

Are you in Canada? If so, this is not new.

It would be new because they dont have ''made in china'' stamped on the back they have no COO mark

 

[Old Donn]

Speaking of gimmicks, does anyone own these? I have a set received as a gift years ago (someone falling prey to the c-man tool gimmick again) and never could find an application to use them on. They are made in the US, but who cares?! Bob Villa may have pushed these at the time, Bob could shove 'em up his ...

Yeah, I do. Yet another ghost of Christmas past. Got them whenever Sears was pushing them. Thanked my daughter profusely, took them out of the package, put them in the tool chest and haven't touched them since. Like TJ, never found a use for them. Rarely ever use a knuckle buster and when I do, it's a standard issue type.