Sagging roof, help

[polexican23]

I wish I snapped a pic to add to this, but I forgot.

Stopped at my grandparents house, they complained that their door on their 2 car garage wouldnt open. It is a 16x7 foot door. As soon as I pulled up I saw the problem. The header over the door was sagging about 6 inches at the least. They had the roof replaced about a year ago to fix a leak. The entire garage is at least 30 years old.

The beam is one full piece. Can I/Should I jack up a portion of that roof to support the weight while I replace that beam?

 

[woodrail]

Way too little information here!

Was a layer of shingles added to the existing roof?

Is this truss or stick frame construction?

Something has failed in the structure. Leave the door down and peak around. I bet you find termites or a broken/seperated beam.

First and foremost -USE YOUR HEAD. Something is wrong. Don't go pulling on, hanging, or jacking up anything till you find out. I wouldn't hesitate using some 4x4's as an emergency blocking till you find out, but don't starting moving things around or you could end up with a pile of wood instead of a garage!

 

[ratdoggy]

I jacked up second floor joists to add a header in my old house. It's tricky to do but not that hard. Pictures would definitely help

 

[Gary S]

That is how I would do it. Jack it up so it is straight before you attempt to remove the existing header. If in doubt, replace it with a steel I beam that can't sag. Either the original header isn't big enough, or there isn't good roof support above it. If the roof is engineered trussed, that shouldn't happen. If it is home-brew rafters, this is common after time.

 

[polexican23]

stick built. No trusses, and it is a whole new roof. New plywood and one layer of shingles. I didnt find out until after they replaced the roof that they had problems. They spent 5k on the roof alone. I think they got hosed personally. Had I caught it in time I would have advised them to rebuild the whole garage, BIGGER too. From the looks of it the beam isnt more than a 18 foot 2x6.

 

[woodrail]

Yea, that's undersized by about a factor of 4.

I'm assuming no columns in the garage?

If you have the ability to add a taller beam, I'd go with a pair of 2x12's.

If not, Your going to need to sister up a serious combination to get the strength. Perhaps something like a pair or 3 2x6's with a steel flitch plate bolted between.

I've never had to do this, but Im guessing your going to need to be able to basically raise the roof and endwall, and provide temporary structure to hold it, while clearing out the sag.

Good luck and be careful.

 

[polexican23]

hmmmm is that a pile of gasoline soaked rags near grandpas ashtray??

 

[May Pop]

Menards has some nice GLUELAMS that will span the opening.
Or double 2x12 with a 1/2" spacer between the 2.

 

[polexican23]

is it standard in a new build to use a single beam across the door, without trusses??

 

[Zeke]

is it standard in a new build to use a single beam across the door, without trusses??

Without or with, it has to carry the roof load over the entire opening. Studs 16"O.C. are 3 per every 4'. You are missing 12 studs plus one to fill in the opening. So, the header does the work of 13 studs. It's dynamic as the weight factor in the center of the beam is greater. But the overall idea is there that the beam must carry the load over the opening in lieu of the studs.

Generally a rule of thumb is 1 inch in beam height for each foot of span. However, on a single story garage, a 12" high 3.5 inch thick beam will usually do the job in 16 feet overall. Some people use 14 inches. Some people will use a fatter beam.

 

[CNGsaves]

You know you've got to provide LOTS of pics . . . they will tell a thousand words.

Likely an 8 yr old's clubhouse up in tree is better built, compared to grandma's garage, if "builder" used a single 2x6 as an attempted header for 16 ft garage door. My guess there are many other flaws that a big snow storm might drop the whole garage like a pancake.

 

[Big Gus]

I'd say the roof bill of 5k is probably not out of line of they had a crew come in and tear off, haul away debris, replace sheeting, and install shingles.

 

[stafford]

Is the garage door in the end of the building, under the gable? Or is it on the side where the rafters are all resting on the header. Makes a difference.

Stafford

 

[zchrisz]

i agree with stafford, if it's a gable roof where the peak of the roof is above the garage door there is not much load on that "header"

 

[CNGsaves]

i agree with stafford, if it's a gable roof where the peak of the roof is above the garage door there is not much load on that "header"

Did you READ the thread ?? It's SAGGING 6 inches !!!

 

[Falcon67]

As above - I used a double 2x12 with a 1/2 ply core, construction adhesive and nails. The opening is for a 16x7 door. I would build a brace about 2' back from the opening under all the appropriate joists, then raise them back to level. Build a false wall in place to support the roof and then replace that beam over the door.

A 2x12 on an 8' ceiling will just tuck up over a 7' door. View inside:

 

[polexican23]

Thank you all for your knowledge. I will try to get pics up soon. Probably Saturday by the earliest, unless the honey-do list takes me in that direction earlier.

 

[LB-1911]

Did you READ the thread ?? It's SAGGING 6 inches !!!

For all we know it could be a hip roof.

 

[polexican23]

Got pics...looks like somone tried to add a quick fix since my last visit.

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[May Pop]

Looks like plenty of room to replace the 2x6 mess with a proper header of double 2x12 with a plywood space or a couple of glulams.
A solid days work for 2 or 3 guys.
What suburb is it in?

 

[theoldwizard1]

As above - I used a double 2x12 with a 1/2 ply core, construction adhesive and nails. The opening is for a 16x7 door.

I have never seen a short piece of 2x4 nailed to a jack stud to take the place of a second jack stud !

Typical garage door header is supported by 2 jack studs.

 

[CNGsaves]

Got pics...looks like somone tried to add a quick fix since my last visit.

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Wow, that it is bad !! Never seen a garage so bowed that aluminum trim started to buckle up. I sure would NOT be putting cars in there during winter snows until you get that fixed !!

Be sure to also jack up the middle of entire garage also as it is sagging due the wall failing. May need to add a few trusses in center of garge once the proper header is installed over the garage door. Thus, you'll need LOTS of supports and jacks to make that right.

Is this homemade garage by someone back when . . . . or did a "builder" put that lovely together??

 

[polexican23]

This house is in Carol Stream, IL and not sure who built it. But from the looks of the porch add on to the house, it could have been done by my Grandpa waaaaaaay back in the day.

 

[CNGsaves]

Well could have been a "grandpa build" shortcut . . . !! LOL . .

It IS FIXABLE but it will take some strategic steps to do it properly.

Plenty of jacks and support 4x4's, 2x4 braces, etc. Good luck.

 

[polexican23]

i think the the rags soaked in gas just got a little bigger.

 

[NUTTSGT]

When they put on the new plywood, did they remove the old roof sheathing ?

 

[IHI]

Just stumbled onto this, I was thinking it was going to be like the old 1 day garage builders back int he early 80's when they'd put the OHD on the gable end, and install a 2x6 FLAT across the 16x6'6" OHD opening and then would have a 16"-24" overhang with suspended gable unit over that end...we've fixed a number of them as they all varied in sag when we got the call, 2"-6" sag is normal...with that being load bearing, I have no idea how/why it ever passed a building code (even though many on here say building codes are a waste and the way gramps did things was best)

This is also what you get with fly by night roofing contractors and cheap pricing...though $5K wasn't cheap, if they ripped up and replaced the sheeting, obviously more work that R&R shingles took place. The roofing contractor should've seen that sag and addressed it since it's going to affect his roof..which would've added cost, and maybe he did want to address it but the grandparents didn't wanna fund the additional cost, so the contractor figured he'd get any cash any way he could...who knows.

Fixable-yes. Temp supports and a lot of tedious remove and replace work when repair is done.

Bigger problem, IF they installed new sheeting over this sag, and then reroofed..your going to find when you jack the roof up there will be a lot of popping going on, and the roof is going to be jacked up since it was installed with the sagging, the shingles will buckle as with the plywood obviously. This is one job where the header should've been replaced and sag fixed prior to anything else since now your going to have a new roof that is all jacked up and ugly, not function properly due to it being installed out of order...once you get into it, you will see what I mean...we've been there done that with people's projects and end up having to tear off and redo what they already paid to have redone...isn't fun for their pocket book, and isn't fun for us either.

 

[polexican23]

I had assumed a cheap fix at the time, knowing my family, but no they completely removed all plywood. So from what you guys are saying I will be ok with the 5k. Now to figure out what to do with the sag. Fix or let it collapse on its own? Pretty sure their fixed income will dictate more of a wait and see approach.

 

[theoldwizard1]

My favorite "stupid garage building trick" was at my Dad's old house.

The original 1 car was converted into a 2 car, on the cheap. Looking at the garage from the gable end, the ran longer rafters up from the left side top plate through the existing right side roof decking and shingle to a new ridge beam. From that new ridge beam, they dropped rafters down to the new right hand wall. The original shingles on the left side decking and laid new shingles over the entire new roof.

THEY NEVER REMOVED THE SHINGLES AND DECKING FROM THE ORIGINAL RIGHT SIDE ROOF AND THE WALL WAS NOW IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NEW GARAGE ! They did remove the siding and every other stud on that wall. The joist connected from the left and right sides on top of the old wall.

The fix was, remove the old shingles and roof decking (more than 50 years old) that were inside the garage. Working from the front to the back, remove each 2 piece joist, individually, and replace it with new 2 piece 2x8 joists that overlapped in the middle by about 1/3 of the width. These were glued and bolted together. Slow progress for 1 man, almost 60 at the time.

 

[IHI]

I had assumed a cheap fix at the time, knowing my family, but no they completely removed all plywood. So from what you guys are saying I will be ok with the 5k. Now to figure out what to do with the sag. Fix or let it collapse on its own? Pretty sure their fixed income will dictate more of a wait and see approach.

Well I understand the fixed income thing. Redneck as it is you can buy a lolly post and use it as the band aid of bandaids to jack up the center and possible allow them use of the garage and ohd again...***** though since with the adjustible steel post in the center of the opening you will have to make one side or the other wide enough to get a car in and out...while also making the other side of the opening too narrow for a vehicle

 

[bczygan]

Well I understand the fixed income thing. Redneck as it is you can buy a lolly post and use it as the band aid of bandaids to jack up the center and possible allow them use of the garage and ohd again...***** though since with the adjustible steel post in the center of the opening you will have to make one side or the other wide enough to get a car in and out...while also making the other side of the opening too narrow for a vehicle

This cheap temporary solution may work for a while to keep it from collapsing altogether. Do it. But don't jack it up too much. Just enough so the door works.

That header is very inadequate. I still recommend LVL's for that. Dimensional 2x's will NOT do. This is a bearing wall with a lot of contributing roof area and a long span.

And as the post 3 posts up said, it will require a lot of removing and replacing as you bring things level, plumb and square.

I also believe there is another major contributing factor. We need more photos of the inside framing of the roof to be sure. What I suspect is a lack of ceiling joists to connect the front and back walls and keep them from blowing out. I don't see ANY on your 3rd photo. How many are there?

 

[Homerr]

I'm a draftsman and do gravity loading on a daily basis.

Assuming a 20' overall span, with half loading on the garage door header nowadays I would spec a 3 1/2" x 13 1/2" 24F-V4 glulam beam. Under the Chicago area's 25#/sf snow loading this results in a maximum deflection of 0.5" (upping to a 15" deep one has 0.365" deflection).

An alternative would be (2) 1 3/4" x 14" 2.0E Microllam LVL's with max deflection of 0.427".

For the work we do we generally call out a 1 3/4" x 9 1/2" 1.55E Timberstrand LSL as a minimum garage door header, even an 8' door in an unloaded gable. It provides a solid and straight backing for the wall above the door to avoid any sags. Also, people do stuff over time that can add load on to headers.

 

[Falcon67]

I have never seen a short piece of 2x4 nailed to a jack stud to take the place of a second jack stud !

Typical garage door header is supported by 2 jack studs.

That was a temporary piece placed as a holder during construction. Final trim used two studs and a 3/4 trim board as you'd expect.

THEY NEVER REMOVED THE SHINGLES AND DECKING FROM THE ORIGINAL RIGHT SIDE ROOF AND THE WALL WAS NOW IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NEW GARAGE !

LOL - our recently ex-house had an addition on the back, probably done in the mid 70s. Not only did they not level the house first, they offset the room creating a small "step" gable on the right side (looking at the house from the street). In the attic, the remains of the 1926 main house roof complete with cedar shakes and layers of shingles remain. That back room was the master bedroom, and behind the drywall between it and the kitchen was the back wall of the original house, siding, window and door openings and all. 5 1/2" total thickness.

 

[bczygan]

I'm a draftsman and do gravity loading on a daily basis.

Assuming a 20' overall span, with half loading on the garage door header nowadays I would spec a 3 1/2" x 13 1/2" 24F-V4 glulam beam. Under the Chicago area's 25#/sf snow loading this results in a maximum deflection of 0.5" (upping to a 15" deep one has 0.365" deflection).

An alternative would be (2) 1 3/4" x 14" 2.0E Microllam LVL's with max deflection of 0.427".

For the work we do we generally call out a 1 3/4" x 9 1/2" 1.55E Timberstrand LSL as a minimum garage door header, even an 8' door in an unloaded gable. It provides a solid and straight backing for the wall above the door to avoid any sags. Also, people do stuff over time that can add load on to headers.

You still use glulams for these applications? We went to LVL's as soon as they became available.
And you must mean two of the 1 3/4 x 9 1/2", right?

 

[bczygan]

Another contributing factor is the shingles. They are dimensional. Heavier than three tab.

This roof probably has a ridge board, and thus no support. A ridge beam would cut the span of the rafters and contribute to supporting the roof better. It would also reduce the load on the garage door header. It would have to be an LVL for the span.

 

[bczygan]

I guess grandpa's "good old" ways of doing things have been handed down to successive generations. I've seen shoddy methods from all eras.

A few years ago I spied a guy who was closing in a front porch to make it 3 season. The porch had a sway similar to this garage. He had built wall panels and put them in place, with openings for windows. This left a smile shaped gap along the bottom. He was carefully cutting small pieces of wood and fitting them into that gap!

As far as old garages, I've seen a million. One I rehabbed was about 24x27 with a bonus room above. The roof had a big dormer on it. Roof framing was 2x4 rafters. Needless to say, the dormer was sagging. In fact, the whole roof was sagging, and transferring the load to stub walls in the attic and into the attic floor system. That system was 2x6 joists spanning the entire width of the garage. These also had deflected a LOT!

Solution was to support the floor system from below with temporary walls after jacking things up. And then cutting the line of joists and inserting LVL's with joist hangers to cut the joist span. Only then could the roof be addressed.

 

[IHI]

This cheap temporary solution may work for a while to keep it from collapsing altogether. Do it. But don't jack it up too much. Just enough so the door works.

That header is very inadequate. I still recommend LVL's for that. Dimensional 2x's will NOT do. This is a bearing wall with a lot of contributing roof area and a long span.

And as the post 3 posts up said, it will require a lot of removing and replacing as you bring things level, plumb and square.

I also believe there is another major contributing factor. We need more photos of the inside framing of the roof to be sure. What I suspect is a lack of ceiling joists to connect the front and back walls and keep them from blowing out. I don't see ANY on your 3rd photo. How many are there?

Maybe Bad4bizznes can chime in with some hillbilly solution he thinks is great, or possibly stop by to see what halfazzing a build can lead to LOL.

 

[IHI]

You still use glulams for these applications? We went to LVL's as soon as they became available.
And you must mean two of the 1 3/4 x 9 1/2", right?

Same here, wasn't often we used dimensional lumber for headers/beams once LVL's hit the scene. For our area they always speced 2- 1 3/4x 11 1/4 LVL's with 4 nails top to bottom 16" o.c. both sides. So much nicer using them since they were/are a lot straighter than standard lumber so we didn't have to cut odd size cripples to keep the top plate level.

 

[dlenkewich]

Even though it was under built, I suspect the new activity on the roof is what made it a big problem.

You can see they added new rafter boards so the fascia must be new... Leads me to think is sagged very badly, very suddenly. Or did they just put a hole new roof on a sagged out building?

I suspect by the look of the fascia and the door suddenly not working that all the new work led to a sudden deterioration. It's a shame they didn't see this and address it while the roof was off.

It doesn't make much of a difference, I guess. Under built is underbuilt.

 

[dlenkewich]

They also appear to have forgotten to install drip edge before doing those shingles.