Saw Stop Table Saw

[gdocktor3]

Sorry if this is old news, but this is amazing. Walked in to work this morning and the contractors were working outside my shop. Jokingly I asked what that pos was, saw stop? Some cheap table saw from a big box store? Then I got the facts and it blew my mind.

 

[UncleJoe]

Some folks bad mouth them but 3 of, in my opinion, the best woodworkers that have videos on Youtube have gotten them in the last year and have used them on the job in the real world, building things and they swear by them. They claim they are well built and very robust. It will be the next major purchase for my shop. I can't afford the lost time that one mistake would take.

 

[TK-421]

Hasn't that idea been around since the 90s? I remember it for as long as I can remember. Granted, that's not very long, but I'm sure it's relatively old by now, at least 2001 or so?

I remember Grandpa saying it adds something like $1,000 to the cost of a table saw and would make it impossible to get a cheap table saw if it became federally mandated safety equipment, but that was a while ago and I wouldn't be surprised if the cost has come down since then.

 

[Brian_WK]

Great tech and a real shame there is still litigation going on between this and another company about similar tech. It just keeps the price of this technology high and the lawyers paid.
I have been telling my BIL a for awhile now that he needs something like this (hes a GC with a bunch of idiot employees) but instead bout a POS off of Craigs List to use because his workers keep breaking tools. On of these times one is going to cut his hand off.

Brian

 

[Roberts210]

What they don't tell you is when the saw stops that violently it screws up the internals of the saw, bending the shaft, etc.

 

[TheGrooveking]

What they don't tell you is when the saw stops that violently it screws up the internals of the saw, bending the shaft, etc.

Incorrect, they do not. They basically take out the blade and the aluminum block used to stop the blade. In some instances you can wiggle the blade out of the block and have the few missing teeth replaced.

TheGrooveking

 

[LX-Markham]

Even if it wrecked the table saw in the process ....who cares? I would give the price of a saw for my finger.

My only concern would be the device going off falsely and wrecking a saw.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Sorry if this is old news, but this is amazing.

Yup, it's old news. I did a quick search; it looks like it was first discussed here in 2006, with subsequent discussion threads appearing a couple times each year since then.

You'll see that half of the people think it's a great idea, while the other half think it's an overpriced tool and people shouldn't be sticking their fingers in the blade anyway.

 

[gdocktor3]

What they don't tell you is when the saw stops that violently it screws up the internals of the saw, bending the shaft, etc.

Rather that than a few missing fingers.... or worse...

 

[Stuart in MN]

I should say I think it is a good idea, even though I still use my ancient Craftsman table saw that bit my finger once...if I were in the market for a new saw I'd definitely consider the Sawstop; I've looked at them in woodworking stores and they seem like a quality tool.

 

[rlitman]

Incorrect, they do not. They basically take out the blade and the aluminum block used to stop the blade. In some instances you can wiggle the blade out of the block and have the few missing teeth replaced.

TheGrooveking

Perhaps, but that's debatable. Then again, I wonder if 10 years from now, we'll see a recall on the Bosch version this because it's using Takata airbag modules...

I agree with the other sentiments though that a saved appendage is easily worth the price of a blade plus "cartridge", even with the potential cost of an arbor plus bearings on top of that.

 

[txvwnut]

I purchased my Jet table saw from a guy that had bought a Saw Stop saw. I remember seeing them at some expo somewhere way back when they were in their infancy and the mechanism used to destroy the whole drive setup. I also remember they were quite pricey for the time and being sold on the premise of peace of mind. When I watched the demonstration they had the blade all the way up. I told the guy that was trying to convince me to buy that if you ran the blade where it just cleared the material being cut it would lessen the chance of an accidental blade finger meeting.

I still think its a great idea and there is at least one other saw with the same idea but it rapidly drops the blade instead of stopping it.

 

[PBCampbell]

There's a recent review and test between Sawstop and Bosch here
https://www.protoolreviews.com/tools/power/corded/saws/bosch-reaxx-1041a-vs-sawstop-jss-mca/14982/

Sawstop has a lawsuit against Bosch currently.
The biggest gripe against Sawstop is how the patent owner attempted to force his system on other manufacturers through government regulations which failed. I've never read anything suggesting the saws weren't well made and I think it has a place in industry and trade school situations where inexperienced operators might be using. If I had a construction crew or cabinet shop I'd certainly invest in one. As for a hobbyist or owner/operator it's up to the individual. I know to keep my hands away from the blade, but others aren't so certain. Kickback is more of a problem from my perspective.

 

[rlitman]

... Kickback is more of a problem from my perspective.

It may be, but that Bosch has a riving knife, which pretty much eliminates that issue.

 

[pcmeiners]

"What they don't tell you is when the saw stops that violently it screws up the internals of the saw, bending the shaft, etc. "
Guess you do not own one and listen to hearsay.

"It may be, but that Bosch has a riving knife, which pretty much eliminates that issue. "
My Sawstop came with a riving knife, reviewed as one of the best.

 

[G-ManBart]

We just bought one at work...very nice! I saw a brand new 10" model (literally unused) at an estate sale yesterday, and was surprised it was still there. If I was setting up a woodworking shop (one of these days) I wouldn't hesitate to get one.

I like my fingers!

 

[mikegt4]

There's a recent review and test between Sawstop and Bosch here
https://www.protoolreviews.com/tools/power/corded/saws/bosch-reaxx-1041a-vs-sawstop-jss-mca/14982/

Sawstop has a lawsuit against Bosch currently.
The biggest gripe against Sawstop is how the patent owner attempted to force his system on other manufacturers through government regulations which failed. I've never read anything suggesting the saws weren't well made and I think it has a place in industry and trade school situations where inexperienced operators might be using. If I had a construction crew or cabinet shop I'd certainly invest in one. As for a hobbyist or owner/operator it's up to the individual. I know to keep my hands away from the blade, but others aren't so certain. Kickback is more of a problem from my perspective.

IIRC, the inventor of Stopsaw was (is) a lawyer and he first ******* the technology with patents and then tried to get legislation passed requiring all table saws to be made using his patented technology and, conveniently enough, pay him generous royalties. That didn't work so now he is on "Plan B", selling the saw on it's own merits.

 

[FMC1959]

IIRC, the inventor of Stopsaw was (is) a lawyer and he first ******* the technology with patents and then tried to get legislation passed requiring all table saws to be made using his patented technology and, conveniently enough, pay him generous royalties. That didn't work so now he is on "Plan B", selling the saw on it's own merits.

A saw with technology invented by a lawyer.....doesn't sound right.

It might be a great technology but when I hear stories like above, where he tries to get government to have everyone buy the technology from him, I kinda hope Bosch or anyone else succeed over him.

**** You know the old lawyer joke......sitting on a park bench are a cheap lawyer, an expensive lawyer, and Santa Claus. Someone walking by drops a $10 bill; who gets up to grab the $10?

The expensive lawyer, the other 2 are figments of your imagination

 

[R.Anderson]

IIRC, the inventor of Stopsaw was (is) a lawyer and he first ******* the technology with patents and then tried to get legislation passed requiring all table saws to be made using his patented technology and, conveniently enough, pay him generous royalties. That didn't work so now he is on "Plan B", selling the saw on it's own merits.

If this is true this is enough for me not to buy one. The guy is a crook the way I see this.

This technology is in the same boat as the technology in cars and trucks that park and perform emergency stops on there own, soon to add drive on thir own. Neat, and made with good intention but it will make people take those safety features for granted, become lazy, and less aware of things aka stupid. Idiocracy anyone? Darwinism works we would not be here without it.

I have a used circular saws and table saws since I was 12yrs old and I can still count to ten. Proper training and common sense simple as that.

 

[dnschmidt]

Sawstop will not win it's suit against Bosch. The two technologies are vastly different and in my opinion the Bosch version is superior since it doesn't ruin the blade. This is David vs. Goliath and David only wins that war in the Bible not in real life.

 

[rharman]

I strongly disagree with the tactics SawStop has used in an attempt to force their technology. That, in no way, detracts from the fact that it is a very good quality saw and the safety feature is such a great benefit.

If I had the room and needed a new saw, SawStop would be #1 on my list - even though I wouldn't like supporting the guy.

 

[Roberts210]

Rather that than a few missing fingers.... or worse...

I've used table saws all my life--I mean since age 15--and I'm approaching 70. There is no excuse for anyone EVER to get their fingers near the spinning blade. When the blade is moving I keep 6" of space between my flesh and the spinning blade. I place an imaginary half-sphere all around the sawblade--right, left, front, back and above, and never put a finger, palm, etc. inside that imaginary sphere. I use push sticks. Never had a problem.

 

[Roberts210]

"What they don't tell you is when the saw stops that violently it screws up the internals of the saw, bending the shaft, etc. "
Guess you do not own one and listen to hearsay.

No, I simply read the reviews in Fine Homebuilding when they first came out. Maybe the Sawstop has been improved, but then again, maybe they have not. Either way I won't get one.

 

[IndyGarage]

Looks like the Sawstop on Amazon costs between $1899 for a standard table saw and $3000 for a top line cabinet saw, with several variations in between.

The stop cartridge sells for $69.

The Bosch flesh detecting saw is $1499 for a "Jobsite" style table saw.

So about $1000 premium for the stop technology.

If they work - which by all accounts I've seen they do - Then any trip to the emergency room costs at least $1000 - whether you lose any fingers or not. It's probably a no brainer if you use your saw very often.

The challenge is for someone like me, who uses my table saw a couple days a year. My old Craftsman works fine and I choose to be very careful when using it - still it is a dangerous tool, and if I had an accident, I'm sure I would wish in hindsight I'd paid for a Sawstop.

I don't know how much margin is in that $1000 premium, and I don't know how much R&D investment he has to cover.

If there's a lot of margin in it then the guy could easily make the same money by lowering the cost and selling more units, and saving more folks in the process. Hard to say for sure whether it's just expensive technology or the guy is trying to gouge his customers.

 

[Doug Arthurs]

Some folks bad mouth them but 3 of, in my opinion, the best woodworkers that have videos on Youtube have gotten them in the last year and have used them on the job in the real world, building things and they swear by them. They claim they are well built and very robust. It will be the next major purchase for my shop. I can't afford the lost time that one mistake would take.

Just curious if these woodworkers bought them or were given them. It is usually easy to tell. If the do a review then they probably got it for doing a reveiw.

 

[6PTsocket]

Perhaps, but that's debatable. Then again, I wonder if 10 years from now, we'll see a recall on the Bosch version this because it's using Takata airbag modules...

I agree with the other sentiments though that a saved appendage is easily worth the price of a blade plus "cartridge", even with the potential cost of an arbor plus bearings on top of that.

LastI heard the Bosch never actually made it to the US market, regardless of the ads. They are still in court. I am rooting for Bosch because I believe in a competitive market but Gass, the founder of SawStop is a lawyer and wrote his patents to cover almost anything a competitor could come up with. The saw stop is spring driven. The spring is held back by a fusable link. A charged capacitor is discharged and blows the link when the sensor detects the finger. The Bosch uses the exploding air bag cartridge but I believe the suit is over the detection technology that is similar. Gass tried to pressure the US government to mandate the feature on all table saws and failed. I believe he has one licensee, an Italian company, for his design. He cares about safety but only if he supplies it. There were no takers when he developed and wanted to just license the idea. So he mde it himself. In wood shop cabinit saws, he sells more than all his competitors, combined. Everybody says the quality is tops, aside from the safety feature. The popular Professional model is similar in price to the Powermatic PM 2000, a very good saw without the feature.



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[6PTsocket]

Sawstop will not win it's suit against Bosch. The two technologies are vastly different and in my opinion the Bosch version is superior since it doesn't ruin the blade. This is David vs. Goliath and David only wins that war in the Bible not in real life.

The actuation technology is very different, exploding cartridge vs a spring held back by a fusable link but the detection circuitry that senses the finger is very similar and Gass has that patented to the hilt. Bosch has lost the first round in court over what evidence will be admitted. Years ago, I read that Bosch said the had design of their own but knew they would be ******* in court if they tried to sell it. I guess they decided to go for it
To the guy that thought a lawyer couldn't be a designer. Many patent lawyers have an engineering degree in the area that the specialize in or they would be unable to understand the techicalities of the cases. I worked with an electrical engineer that was getting ready to go to law school to become a patent lawyer.

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[tymbo]

judge makes preliminary ruling in favor of sawstop:

http://www.woodshopnews.com/news/news-desk/505742-bosch-stands-its-ground-after-sawstop-ruling

 

[reader2580]

Some insurance companies are requiring their customers to replace existing table saws with Sawstop saws to reduce payouts for injuries. Schools that still have shops are also putting in Sawstop for liability reasons.

 

[UncleJoe]

Just curious if these woodworkers bought them or were given them. It is usually easy to tell. If the do a review then they probably got it for doing a reveiw.

The guys I was referring to are Gary Katz, Ron Paulk, and Stumpy Nubs. All three have done reviews of stuff they got for free and they did not like. They all use the Saw Stop in their daily work and could use any saw in the market for free. I have followed these guys for a while and I feel they would tell it the way it is whether they got the tool free or not. Just my opinion.

 

[LarryFahn]

Not all accidents are preventable in the real world. My junior year in high school a blade guide on the bandsaw broke off where it was welded on. It hit the blade, the blade broke and the guide hit my finger (we assume this is how it happened)
The bandsaw didn't make any funny sounds like there was a problem and nothing seemed out of place. I turned it on, had my safety glasses on and went to cut a 3/8 x 3/4" notch. Not all accidents are preventable.

The Corian shop I worked at 8+ years ago bought a Saw Stop and it came to use twice. It saved a lot of money on the companies end.

 

[trainer]

here's some good reading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop

According to Wikipedia, one of the main reasons no one would licence the technology is because sawstop would not assume liability if their device failed.

I understand that patents expire after 20 years, so Sawstop should have about 2-3 years left. It'll be interesting to see if they can compete once their technology becomes public domain.

 

[the gypsy]

I apologize if this has been mentioned before. I admit that I did not read all the posts. But from what I have seen it will destroy your blade and the aluminium block. Now on the market is a saw made by Bosch called the Reaxx that will also stop when in close contact with fingers but will not damage the saw. Different technology and probably less expensive to repair and to get back up and running. here is a link.

 

[the gypsy]

OOOPS I forgot to mention the saw here in Canada goes for about $2000.00. It is expensive for a portable! But then again, how much is a finger worth?

 

[LB-1911]

I apologize if this has been mentioned before. I admit that I did not read all the posts. But from what I have seen it will destroy your blade and the aluminium block. Now on the market is a saw made by Bosch called the Reaxx that will also stop when in close contact with fingers but will not damage the saw. Different technology and probably less expensive to repair and to get back up and running. here is a link.

To include a lawsuit

There's a recent review and test between Sawstop and Bosch here
https://www.protoolreviews.com/tools/power/corded/saws/bosch-reaxx-1041a-vs-sawstop-jss-mca/14982/

Sawstop has a lawsuit against Bosch currently.
The biggest gripe against Sawstop is how the patent owner attempted to force his system on other manufacturers through government regulations which failed. I've never read anything suggesting the saws weren't well made and I think it has a place in industry and trade school situations where inexperienced operators might be using. If I had a construction crew or cabinet shop I'd certainly invest in one. As for a hobbyist or owner/operator it's up to the individual. I know to keep my hands away from the blade, but others aren't so certain. Kickback is more of a problem from my perspective.

judge makes preliminary ruling in favor of sawstop:

http://www.woodshopnews.com/news/news-desk/505742-bosch-stands-its-ground-after-sawstop-ruling

 

[Zeke]

I know a fellow that bought one and as it happened, it saved his finger within a couple months of ownership. He is not a novice. I have given it some serious thought. I use a TS almost daily.

 

[pcmeiners]

"No, I simply read the reviews in Fine Homebuilding when they first came out."
I have the top end model, super heavy duty internals..with the cast iron table removed it still weights a few hundred pounds. Have no idea as to the lower end model's robustness.

Personally I did not purchase my Sawstop for my safety, but for younger members of the family using it. If it was just for my use, I would have purchased a used Delta, I have little fear of table saw blades, just enough to keep my fingers.

 

[brianh]

I saw it work back in 2000 at the IWF Atlanta trade show they did a demo with a hot dog it worked just the slightest nick on the dog.

For anyone really into woodworking if you can get out to the IWF show in Atlanta its worth it the next is in 2018 they have it every two years plan on two days to see it.

I don't have the saw stop I am ok with my 1959 unisaw some wood I rip has a high moisture content from my research that can cause triggering of the sawstop.

 

[6PTsocket]

I apologize if this has been mentioned before. I admit that I did not read all the posts. But from what I have seen it will destroy your blade and the aluminium block. Now on the market is a saw made by Bosch called the Reaxx that will also stop when in close contact with fingers but will not damage the saw. Different technology and probably less expensive to repair and to get back up and running. here is a link.

That saw never actually made it to the US market in spite of the ads. Try to buy one.That saw is what Bosch and SawStop are in court over. Everybody keeps saying that the actuation is very different and it is. SawStop has many things covered in their patent and what they are suing over is the part of the device that does the detecting and that is not so different. I hope Bosch wins but SawStop has a case. SawStop already won a preliminary ruling.

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[gdocktor3]

I've used table saws all my life--I mean since age 15--and I'm approaching 70. There is no excuse for anyone EVER to get their fingers near the spinning blade. When the blade is moving I keep 6" of space between my flesh and the spinning blade. I place an imaginary half-sphere all around the sawblade--right, left, front, back and above, and never put a finger, palm, etc. inside that imaginary sphere. I use push sticks. Never had a problem.

Correct, but you aren't buying the saw with the intentions of getting cut either. That's there "just in case." You don't buy a car and plan on crashing it just because it has airbags...

I work at an ever expanding hospital. The outside carpenters, union or not, know what they're doing, but when you have 15 different guys running around on a job, under tight schedules, safety is of utmost concern. With such silly and easily attainable lawsuits this day in age, something simple like this could save a bunch of time, money and headaches for all parties involved.