Saw Stop Table Saw
- Thread starter gdocktor3
- Start date
indeed.
i'm guessing after the patent expires, every tablesaw manufacturer will have some saw-stop-like mechanism incorporated into their design within a few years, for just a little more than what they're priced at now.
rlitman
Well-known member
I'm guessing that if that happens, they'll be priced like inkjet printers with ONE cartridge supplied with a portable saw, and the replacement cartridge being 90% of the price of a replacement saw.
Not likely, Sawstop, with a complete monopoly has held the price of the cartridge at $69 dollars for years. How many times do you plan to stick your fingers in there? One trigger event is probably enough to scare the average guy into being REAL careful.
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rlitman
Well-known member
They're notorious for triggering on green wood (or still wet pressure treated wood), as well as other things.
In any case, that monopoly will expire with their patents in 2021 or so.
With no two brands having a cartridge compatible with another's, the brands will be free to charge as much as they want.
FMC1959
Well-known member
I do not know all of the details but suspect he wanted too much. I am sure he offered his technology to Delta, Milwaukee, Dewalt, Bosch, Powermatic, General, Makita, Ridgid, Hitachi, and probably many more, but no one bit?
Wouldn't be the first time someone thought they had the holy grail and wanted too much. Again, only from stories I read but Robertson and his family, once he passed away, wanted too much. Most screwdriver sets have the almost identical square drive.
Here in Canada the Sawstop folding stand table saw is about $1400-$1500, compared to a regular Ridgid, Bosch, Makita for around $500.
When airbags first came out and were only available on top end models, they were over a $1500 each. They were a hot item on the grey market, cars would be broken into for them, and now they are cheap. Once the patent runs out and all the MFR's start making them, the saw will cost maybe a $100 more than a regular saw.
I don't have all of the facts but this guy that invented it could have made a fortune on the volume if he had sold it cheap enough to all the saw MFR's
Wouldn't be the first time someone thought they had the holy grail and wanted too much. Again, only from stories I read but Robertson and his family, once he passed away, wanted too much. Most screwdriver sets have the almost identical square drive.
Here in Canada the Sawstop folding stand table saw is about $1400-$1500, compared to a regular Ridgid, Bosch, Makita for around $500.
When airbags first came out and were only available on top end models, they were over a $1500 each. They were a hot item on the grey market, cars would be broken into for them, and now they are cheap. Once the patent runs out and all the MFR's start making them, the saw will cost maybe a $100 more than a regular saw.
I don't have all of the facts but this guy that invented it could have made a fortune on the volume if he had sold it cheap enough to all the saw MFR's
The Bosch is $100 but is good for 2 shots. In spite of your concerns about false triggers, the SawStop out sells all other table saws,combined. The safety feature can be bypassed and material can be pre tested. to see if it will false trigger. People that have bought the saw say it is so well made that they would buy it again because it is a great saw aside from the safety feature. That does not mean I condone Gass's bully tactics
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I do have the facts and the Bosch Reaxx that is now in court with Sawstop is actually more expensive. These are the bottom of the Sawstop line and adding the feature to a light weight saw os expensive. The SawStop Professional is about the same price as the Delt Unisaw and the Powermatic 2000. They are popular home shop or small business saw at around $ 3000.
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crane operator
Well-known member
I guess I find that part a little hard to believe. Delta, grizzly, dewalt, powermatic, ryobi, ridgid, and everyone else? Not available in any home depot, lowe's, etc?
Saw stop didn't even have that figure/statement on their website. They say they're #1, but I don't think that's a sales figure. Does everyone post their sales figures?
I'm not saying its a bad saw, just that at its price point I don't see it capturing all that market.
they do sell it in the US. I've seen it in person at a local shop.
neophyte
Well-known member
The Sawstop "inventor" did more than just try to force his technology on other manufacturers thry goverment regulation, although he did do that as well.
After "inventing" the technology, he tried to license it to various tool manufacturers. One of the manufacturers found a problem with the technology. If you tried to use the saw to cut certain materials, like pressure treated wood, the Sawstop system would falsely trigger. Gass, the "inventor", hired an engineer to solve the problem, but the engineer couldn't find a solution, so Gass sued the engineer.
Gass was in talks with various tool manufacturers to license the technology. I'm not sure of all the tool manufacturers, but I remember Emerson, Ryobi and Black & Decker being mentioned. I believe the contract with Ryobi specified a 3% initial licensing fee as a first adopter, with the fee rising to 8%, if the technology were adopted industry wide. I'm not sure what % he eoukd have wanted from other manufacturers who adopted the technology after that, but I've read the fees were way to high for manufacturers to absorb given typicsl margins. According to one if the lawsuits Gass and Sawstop initiated, Black & Decker offered 1% which Gass considered disingenuous.
After negotiations to license his technology failed, Gass tried to get "safety" legislation passed in at least one state that would have required tablesaws to have all the features covered by the sawstop patents, although the legislation did not specify Sawstop specifically. There was an outcry about the legislation, and it was allowed to die without a vote.
Gass, the Sawstop "inventor", also decided to sue the Power Tool Institute, which represents major power tool manufacturers, for conspiring to prevent Sawstop technology from becoming industry standard, by adopting new safety standards, and having its members cease negotiations with Sawstop. I believe a few members of the Institute may have settled with Sawstop, but a judge later threw out the lawsuit claiming evidence that Gass's claims were false. There's a summary here.
https://www.consumerproductmatters....-halting-sawstops-antitrust-lawsuit-released/
Gass also started testifying in lawsuits brought against power tool manufacturers involving instances where people were injured using tablesaws. A number of the lawsuits were brought by insurance companies trying to recoup payouts from workers comp insurance claims involving injuries from tablesaws. Gass was brought in to testify that if his Sawstop technology was part of the saw, the injuries would not have happened. At least one of the lawsuits involved a large verdict, but in another a manufacturer was found not at fault.
The sequence of the above events may not be exact.
Using capacitance to detect the presence of flesh near a sawblade is not "new" technology. There were at least one or more patents prior to the Gass patents related to the Sawstop system that mention capacitance to detect unsafe conditions on industrial cutting equipment. One of the patrnts even mentioned its use on circular saws, and the patents were issued close to ten or more years prior to the Gass patents.
If Gass had simply tried to sell his technology to manufacturers, failed, and them started selling his own saws, the reaction would probably have been much more accepting. Instead, his actions have basically made a large number of woodworkers to never want to purchase a saw or ither item from Sawstop, even if they may be interested in a similar technology.
FMC1959
Well-known member
I like to cheer for the underdog and root for the little guy, but this guy isn't one of them. I don't know all the facts but where there is smoke there is usually fire. Too many stories pointing to Gass trying to cash in anyway he can.
FMC1959
Well-known member
If I read correctly, he started around 2001. If he had taken 0.5% from all the manufacter's back then and consider how many saws all these manufacturers have sold in the last 15 years, he would be rich, happy and not in court.
neophyte
Well-known member
I also forgot to mention in the above, that Gass refused to indemnify the manufacturers he was trying to license his technology to from legal responsibility in case the Sawstop technology failed in use, and someone got injured using a Sawstop technology equipped saw.
R.Anderson
Well-known member
"Saw stop out sells all other table saws, combined"
I am calling BS on this bit. What ya have to back this up?
MikeF2316
Well-known member
If I was a business owner, I would worry that my employees would stick a finger deliberately in the blade while making a youtube video.
Yet it happens time and time again...often to people who say "I never had a problem before" just like you.
Exactly why I will have nothing to do with his junk. I use my 1933 Walker Turner cabinet saw and am fine with it. Zero clearance insert with riving knife, and once my extensions are up. I can not physically reach the blade. Toss in a vacuum system and I love it.
IndyGarage
Well-known member
I wouldn't blame the guy on this one. Liability is what stops a great percentage of business deals from getting done. Every business is trying to pass liability off to others. Even if his techology was perfect, he would still get lawsuits from people who modified the machine, or turned it off or whatever. Even at 8% it wouldn't be enough.
The earlier stuff mentioned, although it sounds pretty nasty, is pretty much par for the course too. Sounds like the guy is an attorney and aggressively defends his rights. Maybe too aggressively, but we've all seen what happens to the little guy when they don't do this - remember the movie about the guy who invented intermittent wipers and Ford stole it from him?
I think in this case It appears to me the market has sorted out properly. You can buy the guy's technology if you want, or you don't have to if you don't want. In any case, the technology does seem to work, so there is value in it.
rk_tek
Well-known member
I went to college for architecture and our shop replaced both of our table saws with SawStops after a professor(a long time wood worker) lost the end of his finger. With around 200 people, many of whom are not experienced with whirling blades of destruction, the saws were worth it. We had a few false triggers with people hitting nails, cutting green/PT wood, or aluminum backed insulation. The saws have a keyed override to disable the detection equipment. You can also test a material with the saw powered on, but the blade not running and touch the material to the blade. Indicator lights tell you if it's good to go. I maintained (not supervised) the shop in our 5th year program and one student sliced the end of one finger off with an 8" jointer bc he didn't use push blocks, and another ran a piece of wood into the router between the bit and the fence going the wrong way(fail on many levels) and she lost the entire end of her finger. She then passed out. As the guy who had to clean the ground meat off the tools, I would be happy if more tools implemented this tech. I'd be happier if people learned how to properly operate machines, but we have to protect the stupid in this society.
I've known many people who bear the scars from table saws and almost everyone of them could have reduced the severity of injury to something a band-aid would have fixed.
I've known many people who bear the scars from table saws and almost everyone of them could have reduced the severity of injury to something a band-aid would have fixed.
I've read that some Italian industrial outfit is his only licensee. Before he started building his own saws, his original intent was to license the technology. There were no takers. It is ironic that one of their objections was liability if it failed to work Later, some hack lawyer sued on behalf of some guy who had removed every safery guard off a saw, contrary to his boss's instructions, and cut off a finger. The lawyer argued that since the technology existed, his boss should have provided him with a saw that was equiped with it. That was when Gass tried to get the Goverment to mandate it, but failed. Agressive doesn't begin to describe it. If he had won it would be. "You must have it, must buy it from me or I will sue you for designing your own. His patents make any attempt at an alternate system almost impossible, even one that is different in many ways, like the Bosch.
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the gypsy
Well-known member
The technology should not be able to be disengaged. And should have some kind of system disabling the machine completely if the safety equipment is modified or disengaged. Thus rendering the liability part of the argument almost nil.
rlitman
Well-known member
Except that the technology is admittedly not foolproof, and will trigger in many conditions outside of contact with human flesh. The bypass is required for these purposes.
the gypsy
Well-known member
From what I read on this thread, I believe it is when used to cut PT wood or green wood . I do not feel the need to cut PT or green wood on a table saw in this price range.. Because I believe a table saw is more suitable for more precise cuts and I don't believe fine furniture is made with PT or green wood. I personally believe any project using these types of wood can be handled by a cheaper saw without this feature. We can argue about the need to use the same saw for both uses thus requiring the need to be able to disable the safety feature, but I trust many of the forum guys would most probably agree with me buy a cheap table saw. LOL
rlitman
Well-known member
Price does not equate quality. Saw-stop makes a portable saw. Just the sort of tool you'd expect to be able to cut PT wood. They also make a cabinet saw. Neither is inexpensive.
Green wood is often used in fine furniture. I suppose you've never watched Roy Underhill (who's even used a tablesaw on his show, though it was pedal powered). Though I agree that tablesaws are not generally used to cut green wood, simply from the kickback risk. However, if you've got a Saw Stop saw... nope, it doesn't do anything for you there.
http://www.finewoodworking.com/2010/10/19/this-is-what-happens-when-roy-underhill-meets-a-sawstop
Green wood is often used in fine furniture. I suppose you've never watched Roy Underhill (who's even used a tablesaw on his show, though it was pedal powered). Though I agree that tablesaws are not generally used to cut green wood, simply from the kickback risk. However, if you've got a Saw Stop saw... nope, it doesn't do anything for you there.
http://www.finewoodworking.com/2010/10/19/this-is-what-happens-when-roy-underhill-meets-a-sawstop
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neophyte
Well-known member
One of the manufacturers Gass tried to license the sawstop technology to tested it and found that they couldn't cut pressure treated wood without the Sawstop mechansim accidentslly tripping. This was before the override was added to disable the mechanism.
Most of the manufacturers that have been mentioned in relation to Gass' original attempts to sell his technology, like Black and Decker, Ryobi, and Emerson, manufacture saws that are used by contractors, and those saws are likely routinely used to cut pressure treated woods.
Gass not knowing his saw could not cut pressure treated wood tends to indicate he did not properly or completely test his mechanism before trying to sell it to different manufacturers. Pressure treated wood is sold in practicslly every Home Deopt and Lowes, so it's not some obscure material that is only available to specialty contractors.
As amanufacturer would you want to indemnify an inventor, who was trying to license you a technology, at a fairly high percentage, who did not bother to properly test the technology, or realize there might be an issue, with a material that could have easily been purchased and run thru the saw.
I think it is a real exageration to say that fine furniture makers often use green wood.I have subscribed to FWW and other wood working magazines for many years and it is sometimes used by wood turners for roughing out bowls that are then put aside to dry. The cast majority of the artickes are about using dry stable wood. Roy Underhill is a traditional wood worker who couldn't be farther from power tools. The article was sort of a novelty like asking a vegetarian to pick the best steak house. You would be hard pressed to make your case. As obnoxious as I find Gass, I am not so blind as to deny the fact that his saws are exceptionally well made. Kickback is an entirely a different issue than sticking your fingers in the blade. In forums devoted to wood working tou will get debates about Gass but not about the quality of his saws, finger detection aside.
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neophyte
Well-known member
Fine woodworkers and cabinet shops due use wet wood, and green eood, and pressure treated wood, on occasion.
Cabinet shops get hited to due mill work for contractors who don't have enough room or the right type if equipment to due all their own work. Cabinet shopse also get hired to make outdoor furniture, or to make doors or windows for historic restoration, and pressure treated wood is routinrly used as s budget material when other more rot and insect resistant materials are too expensive. Pressure treated wood us skdo used for municipal projects like benches and plsyground equipment because it's sctually fairly abuse resistant and affordable.
Wet or green wood might also be used for a variety of reasons.
Wood and wood products have to be transported to a shop, and loaded in. Sometimes it rains, and the materials get carried off the truck in the rain, and are wet. If a job still needs to be done, you're going to cut the material down whether it's wet or not.
There's also the trend toward shabby chic, and "restored" or "salvaged" materials used in furniture, that can result in old, wet, and reclaimed wood and materials being used for furniture.
There are also a number of exotic woods that take forever to dry, like ocobola. In some instances these woods msu still have a high moisture content a decade after purchase.
Cabinet shops also hsve to work with othermaterials that might trip the Sawstop mechanism, like foil backed veneer, and specialty products.
If the Sawsyop mechanism could not be disabled, the shops eould have to have non-Sawstop saws as a backup for other materials.
That is why you can disable it and pre test to see if wood is too wet to cut with the detector on. There are other facets that are more annoying like having to swap cartridges for dado blades or having to readjust the gap between the blade and the sensor if one of your blades is off size. I saw a complaint that some Freud 10" industrial blades are actually metric and not exactly 10" You cannot use a 6" dado or 71/4" blade with the safety feature.
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IndyGarage
Well-known member
Yes, as a manufacturer, I would try to indemnify everything to the supplier of the technology - regardless of their level of testing or knowledge of what they are selling.
And as a supplier, I would try to take as little liability as I can.
Usually you end up somewhere in between, but on items that cause accidental injury the negotiations are pretty tricky. I cannot fault either side for walking away from the negotiation if they felt like they weren't getting a fair deal in that situation.
The Bosch example is interesting. As soon as they introduced their own technology, they are taking 100% of the liability for it -so why didn't they just license the already proven SawStop technology at 8% and forget about passing the liability off to SawStop - seems like a dumb business decision to me... - Until you conclude that Bosch didn't really care about the liability or the 8%, or their customers safety - they wanted to keep the entire $1000 premium that the saw brings.
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neophyte
Well-known member
There's more than one reason Bosch might not have licensed the Sawstop technology.
The Sawstop technology involves the cartridge the sawblade drives itself into to quickly stop the blade rotation. From what I've read, this aspect of the Sawstop design actually violates safety standards for machinery in Europe, or some European countries, so Bosch would not have been able to sell a Sawstop equipped tablesaw in dome of their main markets. They may have also considered the Sawstop design inherently unsafe because of this, and had no interest in using the design for for the US market, even if they could have legally done so. The Bosch Reaxx saw does not drive the blade into a similar cartridge, so it does not violate those same safety regulations. It also has no chance of damaging a blade since there is no cartridge blade contact.
I have no idea how much of the price difference Bosch keeps, between the cost of their Reaxx tablesaw, and their 4100 tablesaw which lacks the Reaxx blade stopping feature. One thing I have heard though, is that the Reaxx saw has a fixed price, snd dealers are not allowed to discount the saw, unlike most other Bosch power tools. This sounds like it might be a legal maneuver, in case Bosch loses the patent lawsuit filed by Sawstop. The Bosch Reaxx saw has it's price fixed higher than that of the Sawstop Jobsite saw. Sawstop cannot claim Bosch, a giant corporation, undercut their prices, or lowered the cost their saw might be able to sell for. Bosch can easily claim that any Reaxx saws that were sold, were sold because buyers prefered the Bosch Reaxx system to sawstops, or because buyers who wanted a saw with this type of system had no interest, or even an extreme distaste, to buying a saw produced by Sawstop.
Bosch has also claimed in a statement in regard to the Sawsyop Reax lawsuit, that they believe some of Sawstops patents should not have been granted in the first place, and that others violate patents belonging to Bosch or the Power Tool Institute, which represents power tool manufacturers including Bosch.
“After learning about the PTI/JV technology that is based on rapidly moving the spinning saw blade below the table top, SawStop amended one of their then-pending patent applications to purportedly cover any table saw that retracts the blade rapidly within 14 milliseconds — using any retraction technique after detecting contact. This patent application, which was subsequently allowed by the U.S. Patent Office, is arguably not limited to SawStop’s blade brake technology for retracting the blade, but rather is designed to cover any retraction technique, hindering the development of alternative blade retraction technologies and blocking competing inventors from using their own inventions. There are numerous other examples of SawStop’s manipulating its patent applications after the PTI-JV technology became known.”
IndyGarage
Well-known member
That makes sense. Thanks
Coach James
Well-known member
Yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of rooting for Mr. Gass to be honest. Too many instances of big companies jumping an inventor's claim. Seems like Gass stood up and protected his property aggressively and in an ugly way where necessary. Attempting to get it mandated also just seems like real smart business to me. And then he went on to build a company around it and put out a very high quality product. If he weren't a lawyer he might be our hero.
ALinCarolina
Well-known member
As a long-time woodworker this subject comes up regularly in our discussions. All of my woodworking friends like the safety factor but most of us dislike the way Gass went about, Enough that most of them swear they will never own a Sawstop because of it. From what I heard from one rep, the saw manufacturers would have gladly considered the technology but the royalties demanded by Gass was outright obscene.
I've been using my Unisaw for decades so far with all my fingers present but when I planned on adding another saw I really considered the Sawstop because my son is now interested in learning.
I purchased a European slider saw so now my hands are even further away from the blade.
I've been using my Unisaw for decades so far with all my fingers present but when I planned on adding another saw I really considered the Sawstop because my son is now interested in learning.
I purchased a European slider saw so now my hands are even further away from the blade.
R.Anderson
Well-known member
$500 dollars according to my insurance at my last job. No joke that is all they would give ya per finger if they where chopped, cut, or smashed off. It was a joke that is all they gave ya, I no longer work there.
R.Anderson
Well-known member
This and other reasons are why I really dislike the patent system, makes it way to easy to patent something that has never been fully designed, and or never a prototype being built all to just to fuk others to get rich. Thus creating patent trolls which are fuking evil doing the world no good.
There is more to table saw safety that just a device to lower the blade if you come in contact with it
First of all you should never have your fingers that close to the blade to begin with - that is why they have push sticks, GRR-RIPPERs, etc. But you also need to deal with kick backs.
I remember seeing a picture floating around one of the forums where a Saw Stop owner was cutting a piece of wood and it kicked back - striking him in the forehead and just laying it open...
Europeans seem to be a lot more safety conscious - for example, they are not allowed to run a dado blade on a table saw, the saws have a blade brake to stop the blade when the power is turned off, etc
Another feature that you do not see to often in the U.S. is the ability to adjust the fence front to back. You can slide the fence forward towards the operator that the end of the fence is next to the blade. (there is no fence support after the blade) That way the wood cannot be pinched between the blade and the fence which causes kickbacks
Personally, I think Steve Gass got greedy and tried to ram his saw stop down everyone's throat and he got we he deserves (I am rooting for Bosch)
First of all you should never have your fingers that close to the blade to begin with - that is why they have push sticks, GRR-RIPPERs, etc. But you also need to deal with kick backs.
I remember seeing a picture floating around one of the forums where a Saw Stop owner was cutting a piece of wood and it kicked back - striking him in the forehead and just laying it open...
Europeans seem to be a lot more safety conscious - for example, they are not allowed to run a dado blade on a table saw, the saws have a blade brake to stop the blade when the power is turned off, etc
Another feature that you do not see to often in the U.S. is the ability to adjust the fence front to back. You can slide the fence forward towards the operator that the end of the fence is next to the blade. (there is no fence support after the blade) That way the wood cannot be pinched between the blade and the fence which causes kickbacks
Personally, I think Steve Gass got greedy and tried to ram his saw stop down everyone's throat and he got we he deserves (I am rooting for Bosch)
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pcmeiners
Well-known member
"$500 dollars according to my insurance at my last job. No joke that is all they would give ya per finger if they where chopped, cut, or smashed off. "
Can't your wife sue for lack of service?
Can't your wife sue for lack of service?