Saylor-Beall Rebuild

[TwoInch]

I got the official Saylor Beall paint put in some spray cans for me at a local automotive paint store. It seems to work great and they even put a nice label on it with the Kish paint number. The tank I will have someone come and paint that but I will do everything else with some rattle cans.

As you can see from the pictures I am having some trouble with some fibers in my paint. I think it is coming from my filter. So it looks like I will cover those up and see if it helps.

Now this is the problem. After every primer coat I will sand it down because it is very rough but every time after I sand there will be some primer that comes off. Do I have to keep going over and over again until this does not happen or can I paint with it like this? Will the paint stick to the surrounding areas and help it bond? The cast metal has too many ridges and valleys and it makes sanding very difficult. It seems like paint will always come off unless I get it very thick but at $16 a can I would really like to use less of this primer. I have been through four cans already.

what are the filters for exactly?

sounds like your process is a little messed up. you shouldnt be pulling the primer back off, and really, it should need much sanding at all anyway. you arent looking for a smooth surface with the primer. some people try to make a 'finish" with the primer, but thats not needed, and not what its for.

did you completely clean and degrease the parts before priming? it should adhere really well to clean surface. you also must find the right balance of how thick to apply it, to thin wont work, and to thick will look terrible.

 

[jonathan75]

Jon, it's been 25 years so the new products I am unfamiliar with. I always have some sort of primer over bare metal. Anything metal should be totally free of any oil or contaminants. I usually use a lacquer thinner or acrylic enamel reducer applied to a lint free rag(cotton) to wipe down bare metal prior to and after sanding bare metal then apply self etching primer. On my air tank I might wet sand with a gallon of water in a bucket mixed with a little Dawn dishsoap then garden hose off then a quick dry off with compressed air to get all the nooks and crannies dry. prime immediately.The primer can be scuffed with 400 grit sandpaper to prevent cutting through to bare metal.

Once it's sanded wipe off with a tack rag and apply a sealer that works well with the primer and paint brands you decide on. I then usually give it a coat of paint and wet sand any bad spots with 400 grit. Then apply 2 coats or whatever it takes.

I'm polishing my brass or I would be contacting a shop to see what self etching primer is being used now on brass. Back then we had Vari-prime- used to work really well.

There are some good body and paint forums on the net. Maybe spend a few hours there for current advice.

Thanks for the tips. I did prep the surface and made sure it was clean. After I went over the brass again with 280 grit it worked much better. I will try the white vinegar method suggested on the bits that came off.

Does it say you need to sand it after priming? I would assume you would only do that on a smooth surface to prevent the orange peel look... If you need to scuff up the primer, maybe go over gently with a green scotch-brite pad?

You wouldn't think I would need to sand on such a rough surface already but it was way too rough after the primer. I was using 400 grit but it took too much off so I changed out to 2000 grit. The can says to sand between coats but I think they recommend 320. 2000 grit sounds way too smooth but I think the paint should still stick to it. There are so many hills and valleys in the metal that even at 2000 it did not feel very smooth to me.

Just don't do what I did. A neighbor used my "community air tank" one day and left the air chuck on top of a outside barrel still hooked up. it fell onto the cement, kicked the air chuck out and the fitting stayed wide open the hose whooshed back and forth for awhile.. I came back from fishing the next day and found out my 5 hp craftsman was running for over a day non-stop. I unplug my compressor when not in the shop now.

I should make it coin operated.

 

[jonathan75]

what are the filters for exactly?

sounds like your process is a little messed up. you shouldnt be pulling the primer back off, and really, it should need much sanding at all anyway. you arent looking for a smooth surface with the primer. some people try to make a 'finish" with the primer, but thats not needed, and not what its for.

did you completely clean and degrease the parts before priming? it should adhere really well to clean surface. you also must find the right balance of how thick to apply it, to thin wont work, and to thick will look terrible.

I did the filters so I could still get air flow but cover everything up. But I think the type of filter I am using is not right. It may be making a mess.

For the primer I know it should be rough and I am not trying to finish it but it came out very rough and the can says to sand between coats but a rough sand. I am fine with that but every time I sand it takes off way too much primer no matter how light I was being. So I tried 2000 grit and it helped the taking too much off problem. I think the paint should still stick to it because it feels so rough still. But I may need to put it on thicker. In general I really need more practice because I am very new at painting.

I cleaned the surface with mineral spirits and tack cloth. Or I should say tack cloth then mineral spirits. The tack cloth leaves behind a little of itself so I followed up after it with a lint free cloth.

 

[arkansawer]

Jon, once the primer is on the pump, scuff with the green scratch pad someone suggested then tack off and get some paint on it. You will be able to sand smooth anything not to your liking. When the paint guy comes to do the tank he will show you a lot as far as prep etc. If you think this paint job is fun try painting a black car for shows. You have to be able to compromise with paint jobs. rarely perfect there are always things the painter can see few others can. If you can feel it under the rag you will be able to see it. You might be too much of a perfectionist to do paint work. no offense I appreciate your attention to detail and it shows in your work.

 

[TwoInch]

im betting that it actually is not "too rough" after priming.

primer goes on in a rough, very flat(ex-not gloss) way. it may be a touch less "rough" if you lay it on thicker, as it sounds like you are going super light coats. dont be afraid to lay that primer on thick, this will give you an idea of how to spray the paint later. i would prime it, then paint it with out sanding really at all.

you are going to have to lay the color on thick, you cant do a bunch of lite strokes trying to avoid runs. get some scrap and figure out exactly how far you need to keep the nozzle of the work piece, and how fast you need to be moving side to side. you want it to lay out "wet", just not wet enough to start sagging or running. when you lay it on thick, it levels itself out as it drys and gives a nice finish. if you use lite strokes, laying little paint each stroke, you will waste more paint, and it wont be as durable.

start at around 8"-10" from the work and adjust your distance and speed from there, be sure to start and stop the spray while you are moving. dont press the button and start sweeping. start the sweep, then push. also, start and stop the paint flow on every stroke. pshhh(right) pssshhh(left) psshhhhh(right) psshhhh(left) psshhhhhh(right) etc....

since you are not painting the tank, any screw ups wont really be visible. takes lots of practice to get great finish spraying.

 

[jonathan75]

Jon, once the primer is on the pump, scuff with the green scratch pad someone suggested then tack off and get some paint on it. You will be able to sand smooth anything not to your liking. When the paint guy comes to do the tank he will show you a lot as far as prep etc. If you think this paint job is fun try painting a black car for shows. You have to be able to compromise with paint jobs. rarely perfect there are always things the painter can see few others can. If you can feel it under the rag you will be able to see it. You might be too much of a perfectionist to do paint work. no offense I appreciate your attention to detail and it shows in your work.

I may need to find and alternative to the green scratch pad. I have some but hate them. They shed and make such a mess. Maybe for light rubbing they won't shed so I may give it a shot.

The paint guy is only going to shoot it. I will do all the prep work to save money.

What you say makes sense. I don't think I could do paint work. It would take me years to get anything done because I would never be happy. Sometimes I don't know when to leave well enough alone and only make it worse.

 

[jonathan75]

im betting that it actually is not "too rough" after priming.

primer goes on in a rough, very flat(ex-not gloss) way. it may be a touch less "rough" if you lay it on thicker, as it sounds like you are going super light coats. dont be afraid to lay that primer on thick, this will give you an idea of how to spray the paint later. i would prime it, then paint it with out sanding really at all.

you are going to have to lay the color on thick, you cant do a bunch of lite strokes trying to avoid runs. get some scrap and figure out exactly how far you need to keep the nozzle of the work piece, and how fast you need to be moving side to side. you want it to lay out "wet", just not wet enough to start sagging or running. when you lay it on thick, it levels itself out as it drys and gives a nice finish. if you use lite strokes, laying little paint each stroke, you will waste more paint, and it wont be as durable.

start at around 8"-10" from the work and adjust your distance and speed from there, be sure to start and stop the spray while you are moving. dont press the button and start sweeping. start the sweep, then push. also, start and stop the paint flow on every stroke. pshhh(right) pssshhh(left) psshhhhh(right) psshhhh(left) psshhhhhh(right) etc....

since you are not painting the tank, any screw ups wont really be visible. takes lots of practice to get great finish spraying.

Thanks for the tips, I will give the primer on the main pump another shot and lay it on thick.

I practiced painting the rear seal cover. It is the ugliest most unfinished piece of metal on the machine that nobody will ever see. Today I can rough it up with 400 grit and have another go and will use your method.

How many heavy coats should I do? Should the first coat be heavy also? How much dry time between heavy coats?

 

[arkansawer]

Jon, lots of pic's and posts. Could you post a pic of the tank being painted? The spots that bother you especially.

 

[jonathan75]

Jon, lots of pic's and posts. Could you post a pic of the tank being painted? The spots that bother you especially.

Sure, here you go.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3146792&postcount=185

 

[arkansawer]

OK, it is what I remembered. Sand the bad spots with 180 or 220 paper feathering into the good paint. prime those spots. I try not to lay the primer too thick. 1/8 th inch is fine. Once primed take the tank outside and get a garden hose to have a small stream of water running. Sand the tank with 400 w'dry on a 4-9 inch rubber block or pad for the flat areas. use your hand with the paper folded 3 in. by 5 in. on the rounded ends. while the water is running where you sand you will see a truer reflection of what will be seen when paint is applied. I like to keep a wet rag to feel the surface as I go. If you sand through spots that will be seen more aggressive sanding with lower grit paper will be required, maybe some hammering, bondo etc.? By the looks of the tank you should be alright. old enamel paint makes a great base for painting (as long as you don't try to paint lacquer over it). When you are done sanding blow off all water. Primer can retain water to an extent so get it real dry. At this point I like to use a sealer to preserve everything until the paint guy gets there. He will take it from there.

 

[jonathan75]

OK, it is what I remembered. Sand the bad spots with 180 or 220 paper feathering into the good paint. prime those spots. I try not to lay the primer too thick. 1/8 th inch is fine. Once primed take the tank outside and get a garden hose to have a small stream of water running. Sand the tank with 400 w'dry on a 4-9 inch rubber block or pad for the flat areas. use your hand with the paper folded 3 in. by 5 in. on the rounded ends. while the water is running where you sand you will see a truer reflection of what will be seen when paint is applied. I like to keep a wet rag to feel the surface as I go. If you sand through spots that will be seen more aggressive sanding with lower grit paper will be required, maybe some hammering, bondo etc.? By the looks of the tank you should be alright. old enamel paint makes a great base for painting (as long as you don't try to paint lacquer over it). When you are done sanding blow off all water. Primer can retain water to an extent so get it real dry. At this point I like to use a sealer to preserve everything until the paint guy gets there. He will take it from there.

Thank you for the details and great tips. I purchased Bondo to fill in the deep scratches. Do I put the Bondo on the bare metal or on top of the primer as needed?

I didn't even know about the sealer. So I just seal the small areas that I fixed? How long can something sit not being sealed? Because I have been working on the pump for over a week now.

 

[jdcompman]

Someone got on it with the puller and cracked the pulley... Oh well, like you said good thing you aren't using it.

I would keep searching, there is a guy here on our local CL (Houston) that is selling some brand new motors, I haven't compared prices to retail but they seem decent:

Smith- 5 HP - $320.00
Lesson- 5 HP - $290.00
Baldor- 5 HP - $449.00

Oh yeah, FYI if you want some good anti-vibration feet for the compressor, McMaster Carr... Search item # 60855K54 as a good starting place.

Great restoration. I love the attention to detail.

As far as feet I would recommend the following ones over the ones listed above. They are meant for this type of an application and do an amazing job and vibration isolation. There are many different weight versions. Just pick the ones that best suit your compressor.

I really like these mounts. Worlds better than the basic hockey puck. When my compressor was on the pallet I used be able to visually watch the entire thing bounce up and down at the rate the pistons were going. With these mounts, it doesn't move at all. I just bolted these to the compressor and let them sit on the floor. There are provisions to secure the base of the mount to the floor but I my compressor hasn't moved at all without having them secured to the floor.

Search for PN 6423k511 on McMaster-Carr.

 

[jonathan75]

Great restoration. I love the attention to detail.

As far as feet I would recommend the following ones over the ones listed above. They are meant for this type of an application and do an amazing job and vibration isolation. There are many different weight versions. Just pick the ones that best suit your compressor.

I really like these mounts. Worlds better than the basic hockey puck. When my compressor was on the pallet I used be able to visually watch the entire thing bounce up and down at the rate the pistons were going. With these mounts, it doesn't move at all. I just bolted these to the compressor and let them sit on the floor. There are provisions to secure the base of the mount to the floor but I my compressor hasn't moved at all without having them secured to the floor.

Search for PN 6423k511 on McMaster-Carr.

Thanks for the tip. They look very tough. I need to find out if it will fit in my opening under the foot. My foot is deep like a cup.

 

[jonathan75]

I got the new pulley in today for the motor. I didn't expect it to come directly from Leeson but I think that is the way most places are going these days. You order from one company and it gets drop shipped from another. Leeson purchased a pulley company from what I was told by the seller but I don't know who they bought out? The quality looks great and the pulley and hub is very heavy.

And this is where I purchased my pulley from. I got the 2B70-SK Pulley and SKX1-3/8 Bushing. Great prices and cheap shipping if you consider the weight of it. For me the shipping was $15.

http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/pulley/two_groove_a_b_pulley_bushed_QTL.htm

Use this link to calculate your pulley size if your not so great at math.

http://www.blocklayer.com/pulley-belteng.aspx

 

[jonathan75]

Here you can see my old pulley vs new. A little size difference really changes a lot with the RPM's. But the old pulley was damaged anyway so I didn't have a choice even if I wanted to run it faster then recommended.

Thank you Ken at Air-Flo for giving me a new Important Tag I just got today also. The new tag will look great when the rebuild is complete. It will be the cherry on top of the breather.

 

[Zrexxer]

Maybe it's just the photo but it looks like your original is for a wider belt section than the one you bought.

 

[jonathan75]

Maybe it's just the photo but it looks like your original is for a wider belt section than the one you bought.

I did a belt test fitting and it was good. But it could be because it is designed for A and B style belts it is more narrow in the base of the channel. I will measure later.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Try these pads under your feet http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-PACK-ANTI...672?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6acfe998

 

[Mr onetwo]

Maybe it's just the photo but it looks like your original is for a wider belt section than the one you bought.

The original is known as an "A-B" sheave.It has 2 rated diameters depending on which belt you choose.It looks to me as though your A diameter is about the same as the new sheave.It looks as though things are coming together nicelyHave you put any thought into what orchestral music you will use to score the "unveiling" YouTube video...it must be something grand!

 

[jonathan75]

Try these pads under your feet http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-PACK-ANTI...672?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6acfe998

Thank you for the link. It looks delicious, I want to eat it.

I would not need to worry about my funky feet with that one if it is large enough to cover the whole base of the foot. I need to measure it to be sure.

 

[jonathan75]

The original is known as an "A-B" sheave.It has 2 rated diameters depending on which belt you choose.It looks to me as though your A diameter is about the same as the new sheave.It looks as though things are coming together nicelyHave you put any thought into what orchestral music you will use to score the "unveiling" YouTube video...it must be something grand!

Good point with the music. I do need to give it some thought. There needs to be a party with lots of beer, car show models and everyone in a 100 mile radius from Garage Journal.

 

[jonathan75]

Maybe it's just the photo but it looks like your original is for a wider belt section than the one you bought.

Here are some pictures and measurements. After translation it appears to be 1mm under the official belts spec but it fits good. I wonder if my belts just worn down over time due to friction.

Pics are old pulley vs. new.

 

[jonathan75]

you are going to have to lay the color on thick, you cant do a bunch of lite strokes trying to avoid runs. get some scrap and figure out exactly how far you need to keep the nozzle of the work piece, and how fast you need to be moving side to side. you want it to lay out "wet", just not wet enough to start sagging or running. when you lay it on thick, it levels itself out as it drys and gives a nice finish. if you use lite strokes, laying little paint each stroke, you will waste more paint, and it wont be as durable.

Thanks for the tip. I put it on thick and it looked wetter and more glossy. I like how it looks but I am just not sure if it will come across in pictures or not. Here is a picture using the light method and one with the heavy method and one of the before shot.

Edit: I let it tack up and just did one more heavy coat. It looked very deep and nice. After it drys I will take a picture of it tomorrow. This will be my guide for the rest of the pump painting. Too bad nobody will ever see this lovely rear cover unless you are changing the belts.

 

[arkansawer]

Thank you for the details and great tips. I purchased Bondo to fill in the deep scratches. Do I put the Bondo on the bare metal or on top of the primer as needed?

I didn't even know about the sealer. So I just seal the small areas that I fixed? How long can something sit not being sealed? Because I have been working on the pump for over a week now.

jdcompman, I like that blue color can you specify brand and color code? thanks

jon, on the tank- I usually apply the bondo to the bare metal after sanding with 80 grit for good adhesion. Leave the bondo a little high and get it flush(even) with 180 or 220 grit to get rid of the sand scratches. then prime. Since you aren't using a spray gun a sealer isn't an option. just try to keep the tank away from to many contaminants prior to paint. The sealer helps the paint from sinking down too much into the bondo-thick primed areas and goes over the whole tank.

 

[Mr onetwo]

I would not need to worry about my funky feet with that one if it is large enough to cover the whole base of the foot. I need to measure it to be sure.

They also have 6X6 ones too.

 

[Zrexxer]

Here are some pictures and measurements. After translation it appears to be 1mm under the official belts spec but it fits good.

Yeah, after seeing the new pics I think it was just an illusion in the previous photos.

But a Taiwanese belt on a Saylor Beall??? Say it ain't so!

 

[CNGsaves]

Yeah, after seeing the new pics I think it was just an illusion in the previous photos.

But a Taiwanese belt on a Saylor Beall??? Say it ain't so!

No doubt . . . and Jonathan that cover sure looks like there are some pits in there. WTF is up with that?? Why no bondo & bunch of sanding to make that perfect??

Someone may never see it, but YOU will know it's there!!

. . . . . just kidding, your perfection/OCD on everything is primo excellent!!

Good luck finishing up the old girl.

 

[rodm1]

Yeah, after seeing the new pics I think it was just an illusion in the previous photos.

But a Taiwanese belt on a Saylor Beall??? Say it ain't so!

I think my SB came new with Taiwanese belts. It definitely came with china fittings!

 

[jonathan75]

jon, on the tank- I usually apply the bondo to the bare metal after sanding with 80 grit for good adhesion. Leave the bondo a little high and get it flush(even) with 180 or 220 grit to get rid of the sand scratches. then prime. Since you aren't using a spray gun a sealer isn't an option. just try to keep the tank away from to many contaminants prior to paint. The sealer helps the paint from sinking down too much into the bondo-thick primed areas and goes over the whole tank.

Thank you for all the tips. The auto paint store did not have 80 grit so I just ordered some online.

They also have 6X6 ones too.

Oh, very good to know. I am leaning toward these now.

Yeah, after seeing the new pics I think it was just an illusion in the previous photos.

But a Taiwanese belt on a Saylor Beall??? Say it ain't so!

I found something else that said Taiwan on it today also. The rear main seal! But I will keep the belts if I can and just clean them a little. They seem fine with no cracks.

No doubt . . . and Jonathan that cover sure looks like there are some pits in there. WTF is up with that?? Why no bondo & bunch of sanding to make that perfect??

Someone may never see it, but YOU will know it's there!!

. . . . . just kidding, your perfection/OCD on everything is primo excellent!!

Good luck finishing up the old girl.

If I went full head on OCD on this thing it would take me months longer. The pump is very rough but I accept it as part of its personality. Not only that but nobody would believe it is a real Saylor Beall if it looked too perfect. I already get accused of having a fake Saylor Beall all to often. Five times already from my latest count.

I think my SB came new with Taiwanese belts. It definitely came with china fittings!

So far the only thing I found was Taiwanese belts and Taiwanese rear main seal. The plumbing fittings on mine were from an American company.

 

[jonathan75]

I talked to the manager at the Auto Paint Store today. He said the reason I was having issues with the primer is my garage is too hot. I guess I should of done my Garage A/C project first. He said my primer is drying way too fast, that is why I have all those fibers and a very rough finish. He told me the only way to compensate without cooling off the garage is to lay the primer down thick as was already suggested on here. So I did just that tonight and it worked great! Very smooth with no sanding needed! I sanded a little one last time before I put two coats of primer on with no sanding at all.

 

[jonathan75]

After the primer went down I let it dry for 30 minutes as the can suggested before putting on a top coat. I figured if I am not going to sand that I should probably put the paint on while it was fresh so it may stick better. My first coat was light and the second and third coat was heavy. I had 15 minutes dry time between coats but the last coat I waited 30 minutes because dinner was ready. In the end I think it came out good.

The bolts I put the paint heavier on the top then the sides so it will look good but not interfere with the socket.

 

[jonathan75]

Here is the rear cover that led the way. It was painted last night and this is how it looks dry next to the still wet inspection port covers.

I have a new rear seal which I do not want to paint. So I will take the old seal out after the paint is very dry and put the new one in. Saylor Beall painted the old seal but I am not sure that is a good idea. I worry it may affect the properties of the rubber and cause it to dry out premature.

 

[trbomax]

Please dont take this wrong,but I cant for the life of me understand why you wouldnt just put it together and then paint it.Your going to end up repainting it anyway because all those pretty bolts will chip when you tighten them down.In my former life I built some winning show rods and a few drag boats,and I never painted anything untill it was together unless I was useing stainless fasteners that had been polished.If you are serious about painting and refinishing you need to ditch the rattle cans and get a decent hvlp setup.

 

[jonathan75]

Please dont take this wrong,but I cant for the life of me understand why you wouldnt just put it together and then paint it.Your going to end up repainting it anyway because all those pretty bolts will chip when you tighten them down.In my former life I built some winning show rods and a few drag boats,and I never painted anything untill it was together unless I was useing stainless fasteners that had been polished.If you are serious about painting and refinishing you need to ditch the rattle cans and get a decent hvlp setup.

Some parts of the pump is blocked when it is fully assembled. I plan to do some touch up as needed. Also I am new at painting so it helps me to practice taking small bites at a time and not screwing the whole thing up at once.

Good point about getting a HVLP setup. I think I will rebuild a Saylor Beall air compressor so I can do that.

 

[Burgerkong]

Just wondering if you blasted the pistons, but then went back a few pages and you ended up getting new ones heh. None of the paint was removed via media blasting, only sanding correct?

 

[jonathan75]

Just wondering if you blasted the pistons, but then went back a few pages and you ended up getting new ones heh. None of the paint was removed via media blasting, only sanding correct?

I think the machine shop just put the pistons in the parts washer and maybe a little hand scrubbing. I only had to replace one piston and two piston rods. As for everything else they were just put in a parts washer. The parts washer put me in a much better place and saved a lot of time because I didn't have to scrub stuck gaskets off. Well worth the $40! A very good deal considering the time I saved.

But media blasting is one of my dreams that I can't wait to be able to do but did not spend money to have someone do it for me. It would save me a lot of sanding time.

 

[jonathan75]

When I got home from work today I found that Automation Direct sent me a nice little goodie bag full of stuff. I ordered last week from them a new contactor for the motor and this week they sent me this. My Son loves the stickers, pen, notepad and luggage tag. And I got a nice tweaking tool that has a small flat-blade screwdriver and a phillips. This tool will come in handy at work when I have to adjust small pots on some boards. Also included is a DVD with their complete catalog and support information. If you need a contactor they have very good prices.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/SC-E2S-220VAC

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tactors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/TK-E2-4200

 

[Burgerkong]

I think the machine shop just put the pistons in the parts washer and maybe a little hand scrubbing. I only had to replace one piston and two piston rods. As for everything else they were just put in a parts washer. The parts washer put me in a much better place and saved a lot of time because I didn't have to scrub stuck gaskets off. Well worth the $40! A very good deal considering the time I saved.

But media blasting is one of my dreams that I can't wait to be able to do but did not spend money to have someone do it for me. It would save me a lot of sanding time.

I need a parts cleaner . Think I'll have to do with carb cleaner and soaking in mineral spirits. Alot of burnt oil on my Champion pistons.

 

[jonathan75]

I need a parts cleaner . Think I'll have to do with carb cleaner and soaking in mineral spirits. Alot of burnt oil on my Champion pistons.

I like the Berryman 1 gallon cleaner with dipping tray. It works great.

 

[Burgerkong]

I like the Berryman 1 gallon cleaner with dipping tray. It works great.

Can't find the carb dip here in Canadeh