Saylor-Beall Rebuild

[jonathan75]

There is something about the matte primmer finish that I like. I only did one heavy coat of the primmer and let it dry for over 30 mins and then started on painting. The garage is still very hot so I need to do heavy coats to prevent the flash drying causing a rough coating.

 

[jonathan75]

And here are some pictures after the last coat. I only did three coats because I really need to try and conserve some paint for the tank. But I paid closer attention to the left and front part of the jug since that is what will be seen the most after assembly. Now it is getting the enamel baked finish with a 60 watt light bulb.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Looking really good!You must be champing at the bit to bolt everything back together.

 

[jonathan75]

Looking really good!You must be champing at the bit to bolt everything back together.

Not really that anxious to get it back together, the crankshaft journals are still bugging me. I am trying to figure out the emery cloth grit to get and where to buy it from. Also I need to use emery cloth on the new valve plates to make sure it seats smooth. From my research I think I need 400 grit and 800 grit to try to take down the journals the .0005 I need. But I read one person say it would take 1000 hours of sanding to get it down even a little bit. If that is true it is really going to be bad.

As for the method I read to cut, wrap and tape the emery cloth around the journal and use a shoelace to move it in circles.

 

[metal4130]

You will never take out half a thou with 800 grit emery cloth or even 400 for that matter. And if you did start to sand on the journals who is to say that you are not going to turn them oblong? Personally I would not worry about this 0.0005" because it WILL loosen up over time. I would rather have it a little tight than too loose.

But if you are dead set I don't see why a good machine shop couldn't lightly "spark off" the crank with the grinder to get your 0.0005". I have never ran a crank grinder but have used many surface grinders and 0.0005" would be no problem on them. Call Saylor Beall and see how they set up their pumps.

I actually have the opposite problem on my compressor. I got it running and my rods are a little too loose. I don't really think it is a big deal but I am pricing replacements.

 

[jonathan75]

You will never take out half a thou with 800 grit emery cloth or even 400 for that matter. And if you did start to sand on the journals who is to say that you are not going to turn them oblong? Personally I would not worry about this 0.0005" because it WILL loosen up over time. I would rather have it a little tight than too loose.

But if you are dead set I don't see why a good machine shop couldn't lightly "spark off" the crank with the grinder to get your 0.0005". I have never ran a crank grinder but have used many surface grinders and 0.0005" would be no problem on them. Call Saylor Beall and see how they set up their pumps.

I actually have the opposite problem on my compressor. I got it running and my rods are a little too loose. I don't really think it is a big deal but I am pricing replacements.

I already took it back to the machine shop once. They did get it better but I was not impressed with the method or lack of measurement after "correction". I just felt like they rushed it I didn't really care about fixing it. So I don't want to take it back to them again or pay to have someone else fix it. Saylor Beall says I need .0015 to .0025 and I only have .0015 on one rod, the rest are around .0010.

But I keep hearing different things from people on if it is a big deal or not. Some say it will wear uneven or have problems because lack of oil flow. And then some say it is no big deal and run with it.

I was wondering what happened with yours. You can get oversized bearings (20 over) from Air-Flo like I did and get your crankshaft turned by the machine shop. If I remember correctly a new crankshaft is $416.

 

[Zrexxer]

You will never take out half a thou with 800 grit emery cloth or even 400 for that matter. And if you did start to sand on the journals who is to say that you are not going to turn them oblong?

So which is it? Either he can't take off enough material to make a difference, or he's going to grind them all oblong.

You can't have your sky falling both ways.

 

[mark52621]

To me it sounds like you need a better machine shop. Any good shop wouldn't have ground the crank without the bearings, and with the bearings it should be perfect.

The best way I've found to locate a good shop in my area is to ask a tractor mechanic. Many times the mechanic's reputation depends on work done by a machine shop. And when the rebuild costs 15000 and up it better be right.

One time my dad and a friend reground a crank himself. The tractor spun a bearing and he didn't have time to send it off to get fixed. He took off the pan looped a long piece of emery cloth over the journal and kept constant pressure on it. Then he had someone else turn the engine. They kept checking the fit with the new bearing until it was right. After the end of planting he took it to a machine shop. They said they couldn't have done better themselves.

If it was mine it would go to a different shop. No way would I put it together with the bearings to tight. I would be to afraid of a lack of oil for the bearings. You've already got oversized bearings, if that crank seizes again your screwed.

Just my opinion.

 

[t.ruckus.rex]

This guy rebuilds a quincy 325 start to finish. I think a lot would be similar to yours minus the valves. Those are a quincy invention.

1/2 a thousandth is really a difference between one surface finish and another and in reality should be speced with a temperature attached. I wouldn't worry about it.

I have some stuff called crankshaft polishing paper, its basically rolls of really fine sand paper ( I got them out of some dumpster during a clean out and they looked old when I got it). But it works great for polishing all kinds of shafting, well almost

Quick google search didn't find where to buy more though.


On the motor starter, I used a soft starter on my lathe. It had a delta-wye connection with all sorts of **** on it originally. I ripped it out and bought a one on ebay for $100. Works great.

Something like this
http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Electrical/ProductsandServices/AutomationandControl/ContactorsStarters/SoftStartersControllers/index.htm

Its basically a VFD without the variable speed. Its meant to start a motor with a lot less current and a lot less acceleration. If you have something like a conveyor or similar machinery its a big deal.

I think you can wire them as you would a VFD for 220V operation though I haven't tried. I know it will cut out if one leg of the three phase is lost.

 

[jonathan75]

To me it sounds like you need a better machine shop. Any good shop wouldn't have ground the crank without the bearings, and with the bearings it should be perfect.

The best way I've found to locate a good shop in my area is to ask a tractor mechanic. Many times the mechanic's reputation depends on work done by a machine shop. And when the rebuild costs 15000 and up it better be right.

One time my dad and a friend reground a crank himself. The tractor spun a bearing and he didn't have time to send it off to get fixed. He took off the pan looped a long piece of emery cloth over the journal and kept constant pressure on it. Then he had someone else turn the engine. They kept checking the fit with the new bearing until it was right. After the end of planting he took it to a machine shop. They said they couldn't have done better themselves.

If it was mine it would go to a different shop. No way would I put it together with the bearings to tight. I would be to afraid of a lack of oil for the bearings. You've already got oversized bearings, if that crank seizes again your screwed.

Just my opinion.

My neighbor who worked for International went to them for years. They always did a good job. Everything I got back from them was perfect and too spec that I gave them but I did not have the bearings in yet at the time. I really should of waited until I got the bearings in but in my mind I was thinking if it is to spec it should be fine. This is my first rebuild of anything of this nature so I am still learning as I go. But I was not impressed with their quick hand polishing fix with no plastigage verification.

I do have .0015 clearance on the sides but not the bottom where the rod attaches which is where you should be checking. I am not sure if having the clearance on one part of it will allow the oil to make it in or not?

 

[jonathan75]

This guy rebuilds a quincy 325 start to finish. I think a lot would be similar to yours minus the valves. Those are a quincy invention.

1/2 a thousandth is really a difference between one surface finish and another and in reality should be speced with a temperature attached. I wouldn't worry about it.

I have some stuff called crankshaft polishing paper, its basically rolls of really fine sand paper ( I got them out of some dumpster during a clean out and they looked old when I got it). But it works great for polishing all kinds of shafting, well almost

Quick google search didn't find where to buy more though.


On the motor starter, I used a soft starter on my lathe. It had a delta-wye connection with all sorts of **** on it originally. I ripped it out and bought a one on ebay for $100. Works great.

Something like this
http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Electrical/ProductsandServices/AutomationandControl/ContactorsStarters/SoftStartersControllers/index.htm

Its basically a VFD without the variable speed. Its meant to start a motor with a lot less current and a lot less acceleration. If you have something like a conveyor or similar machinery its a big deal.

I think you can wire them as you would a VFD for 220V operation though I haven't tried. I know it will cut out if one leg of the three phase is lost.

Thanks for the video link, I watched some of it but I don't think it will help me much at the point I am at now.

For a temperature spec I doubt I will be able to get that. Saylor Beall won't talk to anybody that is not a dealer so trying to get too many details second hand is difficult to do. I like Saylor Beall machines but I am not crazy about their lack of customer service and no customer relations. You would think they would be supportive of the fact that someone is taking the time to rebuild and draw attention to a product they still currently sell but I think they can really care less.

I am taking an opinion poll. So you are saying run with it at .0010?

Please see the attached video and tell me what you think. Actually anybody that knows about crankshafts please watch this. It is only three mins but it shows the rod movement and my plastigage measurements on the first two journals. The last two were the same as the first one but not show in the video. I start talking nonsense when I describe the plastigage scale but basically what I was trying to say is that it is smaller then .0010 on the scale but larger then .0015. So about in between those two scale readings on the chart.

For the motor starter I got a new one and purchased a single phase motor. The only thing I have to do is wire it all up.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/E8XImPSQbX8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Todd.Brock]

I too have experienced this with Champion. A nice young girl couldn't for the life of her find my model number in the catalog. Therefore, I was callin the wrong company, or was confused about what brand of compressor. After finding a different phone number , I was able to talk to one tech guy for about 5 minutes and then it was "off with his head" or off to the distributor rather !!!!
I was impressed by Clausing customer support on my drill press, maybe b/c they sell repair parts directly? It seems like Saylor Beall would be able to provide some specs, Hopefully your buddy Ken has been able to get all your information.

 

[Burgerkong]

I too have experienced this with Champion. A nice young girl couldn't for the life of her find my model number in the catalog. Therefore, I was callin the wrong company, or was confused about what brand of compressor. After finding a different phone number , I was able to talk to one tech guy for about 5 minutes and then it was "off with his head" or off to the distributor rather !!!!
I was impressed by Clausing customer support on my drill press, maybe b/c they sell repair parts directly? It seems like Saylor Beall would be able to provide some specs, Hopefully your buddy Ken has been able to get all your information.

You don't say. Champion wouldn't reply to any of my emails, nor would Grainger's or Gardner Denver. I tried calling, but they were helpfully useless.

 

[jonathan75]

I too have experienced this with Champion. A nice young girl couldn't for the life of her find my model number in the catalog. Therefore, I was callin the wrong company, or was confused about what brand of compressor. After finding a different phone number , I was able to talk to one tech guy for about 5 minutes and then it was "off with his head" or off to the distributor rather !!!!
I was impressed by Clausing customer support on my drill press, maybe b/c they sell repair parts directly? It seems like Saylor Beall would be able to provide some specs, Hopefully your buddy Ken has been able to get all your information.

I hate to bug Ken for every question that comes up. And I really like first hand information when I can get it.

But I got the feeling that I care more about the compressor then the rest of society thinks I should. I keep hearing the same **** wherever I go or whoever I talk to. "It is just a compressor." blah blah blah "Who cares." and "No bid deal it is just a compressor." I mean if someone wants to rebuild a toaster I would say go for it. Garage Journal is the only place I can find any encouragement.

This is a learning experience more then anything for me. Something to build my confidence before I rebuild my wife's car engine. A compressor teaches you a little about many trades and skill sets if you think about it. This is not just a rebuild it is education that also provides a guide for others that would like to do the same in the future.

 

[EOC_Jason]

I would try maybe a higher grit paper and just "polish" it to see if it allows better movement.

Did you try using a little oil when you test fit to see how they moved then?

 

[jonathan75]

I would try maybe a higher grit paper and just "polish" it to see if it allows better movement.

Did you try using a little oil when you test fit to see how they moved then?

Yeah I used oil before I cleaned it off before the Plastigage test. The video a few posts up shows the movement. Only 3 mins long.

The Plastigage appears to be accurate. Because the only rod with very free movement was the one that the Plastigage said was .0015 on the dot. That is the second journal in that moves free.

 

[Speed-Racer]

I have enjoyed reading your project. The plastigage are not 100% accurate and some people consider them unreliable. Need to measure the rods with the bearings(without the crank installed). After torquing, accurately measure with a dial-bore gauge the dimension of the holes with the bearings in place, at twelve and six o'clock. The 12 - 6 location is where all rod and main bearing clearances are measured. Label and write these dimensions down. Your new rods bore could be slightly tight or your bearing could be out of spec. May be able to hone the rods to obtain the proper spec. Need a better way to measure the specs and plastigages are not going to work.

http://www.wttool.com/ is a source for discounted measuring tools. Find another machine shop if you like. Wait and get everything into the proper specs before trying it out.

 

[jonathan75]

The plastigage are not 100% accurate and some people consider them unreliable. You need to measure the rods with the bearings(without the crank installed). After torquing, accurately measure with a dial-bore gauge the dimension of the holes with the bearings in place, at twelve and six o'clock. The 12 - 6 location is where all rod and main bearing clearances are measured. Label and write these dimensions down. Your new rods bore could be slightly tight or your bearing could be out of spec. You may be able to hone the rods to obtain the proper spec. You need a better way to measure the specs and plastigages are not going to work.

http://www.wttool.com/ is a source for discounted measuring tools. Find another machine shop if you like. Wait and get everything into the proper specs before trying it out.

I did read that some people don't trust Plastigage. But since it told me that one of my journals was .0015 and it was the only one moving freely it does give it some credibility in my book.

What do you think about this set for around $20? http://amzn.com/B00CWKT9NU I have a caliper I can use with it.

Or this set for $14 at HF local to me. http://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-telescoping-gauge-set-5649.html

 

[mark52621]

I hate to bug Ken for every question that comes up. And I really like first hand information when I can get it.

But I got the feeling that I care more about the compressor then the rest of society thinks I should. I keep hearing the same **** wherever I go or whoever I talk to. "It is just a compressor." blah blah blah "Who cares." and "No bid deal it is just a compressor." I mean if someone wants to rebuild a toaster I would say go for it. Garage Journal is the only place I can find any encouragement.

This is a learning experience more then anything for me. Something to build my confidence before I rebuild my wife's car engine. A compressor teaches you a little about many trades and skill sets if you think about it. This is not just a rebuild it is education that also provides a guide for others that would like to do the same in the future.

I fell your pain with the, "It is just a compressor" comments. You get these comments for two main reasons: people take compressors for granted, and its not a high performance engine.

While i only have a bs degree in mechanical engineering, I can tell you minimum clearances are minimums for a reason. I will call my uncle today and ask him, he is a millwright that rebuilds engines for a hobby.

 

[jonathan75]

I will call my uncle today and ask him, he is a millwright that rebuilds engines for a hobby.

Thanks for asking him about this.

 

[Speed-Racer]

I guess the set for $14 at HF, http://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece...-set-5649.html would be ok. Do not own them myself, but the reviews seem fine. It is a little odd that one one rod is tight and the other seems ok on the same crank journal, most machine shops are good at grinding cranks. Need to measure everything to see where the adjustments are needed.
__________________

 

[jonathan75]

I guess the set for $14 at HF, http://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece...-set-5649.html would be ok. Do not own them myself, but the reviews seem fine. It is a little odd that one one rod is tight and the other seems ok on the same crank journal, most machine shops are good at grinding cranks. Need to measure everything to see where the adjustments are needed.
__________________

I will pick it up tomorrow. The machine shop did a good job turning the crank the first time but the fix was just some quick hand polishing holding it in the air by hand. That could explain the inconsistency.

 

[Diggers4life]

If you're worried about .0005" (not saying you shouldn't be), measuring telescoping gages with a pair of calipers isn't gonna get you close enough. Even the best calipers are only good for +/-.001" or so. You're at least going to have to use a micrometer to check your telescoping gages. Even then, you can have some inconsistancy with telescoping gages. Different people often get different measurements with them. You'd be better off finding someone with a bore gage you can borrow to measure the bore, and a mic to measure the journal. The bore gages we have at work are good for +/-.00005". I don't remember the last time I used a telescoping gage, and I'm a tool maker. That being said, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Afterall, it's just an air compressor.

 

[Speed-Racer]

http://www.aircompressorpartsonline.com/0027-crankshft-p-12037.html

Did a search for a new crank, does this work? Have never worked with this co before, not sure if this is a genuine part or not. The part is half price!

 

[jonathan75]

http://www.aircompressorpartsonline.com/0027-crankshft-p-12037.html

Did a search for a new crank, does this work? Have never worked with this co before, not sure if this is a genuine part or not. The part is half price!

I was told that it won't work on real Saylor Beall pumps. That is made for the clone version with metric specs. Supposedly the measurements are not the same.

But I already had my crankshaft turned and got over sized bearings. I only need to take it down .0005 more on three journals. I don't think it is beyond repair at this point.

 

[jonathan75]

If you're worried about .0005" (not saying you shouldn't be), measuring telescoping gages with a pair of calipers isn't gonna get you close enough. Even the best calipers are only good for +/-.001" or so. You're at least going to have to use a micrometer to check your telescoping gages. Even then, you can have some inconsistancy with telescoping gages. Different people often get different measurements with them. You'd be better off finding someone with a bore gage you can borrow to measure the bore, and a mic to measure the journal. The bore gages we have at work are good for +/-.00005". I don't remember the last time I used a telescoping gage, and I'm a tool maker. That being said, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Afterall, it's just an air compressor.

Your probably right. When I was using my caliper I could get very different readings just by a little movement one direction or the other. I think my best bet will be Plastigage and just good old fashioned hand polishing until it starts to move free. I really think the Plastigage will be more acurate since it is real world being crushed in the actual journal under normal operating circumstances. The Plastigage said that my second journal in was .0015 and it was the ONLY one that moved free. The others were coming in around .001 and they did not move free. In my mind that points to some accuracy and justification for its use. Since I know what .0015 feels like on my one good journal I may just polish until the others feel the same followed by Plastigage verification. I am sure what ever I do will be better then the machine shops it is just a air compressor attitude and out the door.

 

[Speed-Racer]

The price for the crank seemed too good to be true, cheaper than a tank of gas. I would keep working on getting the parts within the correct spec. If set up properly, it should outlast you.

 

[jonathan75]

Here are the pictures from when I got it back from the machine shop the second time. You can see the funny wavy marks in the journal after they hand polished it. Also in the first journal picture you can see that is less then the markings for .001 but more then .0015. The harder it is pressed the more the Plastigage will spread out. The second picture is the second journal in and it was the only one at .0015. The other two not shown are just like the first picture. In between .001 and .0015.

 

[jonathan75]

The price for the crank seemed too good to be true, cheaper than a tank of gas. I would keep working on getting the parts within the correct spec. If set up properly, it should outlast you.

Yes, I came close to buying it but then I was told it wouldn't work. Getting one from Saylor Beall is $416. Getting the Crankshaft turned came in cheaper at $100 and I don't think the over sized bearings cost me any more then regular bearings.

 

[Diggers4life]

Your probably right. When I was using my caliper I could get very different readings just by a little movement one direction or the other. I think my best bet will be Plastigage and just good old fashioned hand polishing until it starts to move free. I really think the Plastigage will be more acurate since it is real world being crushed in the actual journal under normal operating circumstances. The Plastigage said that my second journal in was .0015 and it was the ONLY one that moved free. The others were coming in around .001 and they did not move free. In my mind that points to some accuracy and justification for its use. Since I know what .0015 feels like on my one good journal I may just polish until the others feel the same followed by Plastigage verification. I am sure what ever I do will be better then the machine shops it is just a air compressor attitude and out the door.

That's what I would do. Especially if you can't get your hands on accurate measuring equipment. I've used Plasti-gage in the past and had pretty consistasnt results. Should be good enough for an air compressor, right?

 

[jonathan75]

That's what I would do. Especially if you can't get your hands on accurate measuring equipment. I've used Plasti-gage in the past and had pretty consistasnt results. Should be good enough for an air compressor, right?

Now my problem is finding emery cloth that fine. I think I can find Bigfoot first. I might try some regular wet/dry paper I have in the garage that is 1000 grit to practice with. I was thinking about using WD40 as the lubrication for sanding. I also heard about using automatic transmission fluid.

 

[trbomax]

You can get it in 1" -2" wide rolls from machine shop supply houses , McMaster-Carr,or Enco. I polished my cranks all the time with it,but I had them between centers in the lathe.Just spin them slow and work the emery on the journal.If the crank isnt turning on centers there is no way you will remove any material and keep it round.

 

[jonathan75]

You can get it in 1" -2" wide rolls from machine shop supply houses , McMaster-Carr,or Enco. I polished my cranks all the time with it,but I had them between centers in the lathe.Just spin them slow and work the emery on the journal.If the crank isnt turning on centers there is no way you will remove any material and keep it round.

Still coming up empty. I am going to search for Bigfoot today, I know I can find him first.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#emery-cloth/=njn992

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INLMK3?PMK0NO=1427313

As for the method I am going to do the cut, tape around the journal and lather shoe lace trick.

 

[trbomax]

Crocus cloth is 1000 - 1200 grit.I would start with the 500 grit from enco to remove material. When you have the dia you need,put a final polish on it with crocus.Crocus will not remove any measuerable material. Wash the crank in hot ,soapy water to remove all traces of grit,and recheck your clearences. Ive done it that way goin on 50 years now.

 

[mark52621]

I heard back from my uncle today. He said that if it is torqued to spec, and it doesn't rotate freely on the crank it will cause problems. He also said it's a pretty common and simple to fix.

Go to an auto parts store and buy .001 thick "shim stock". It is a small sheet of steel .001 thick. Put a hole through it big enough for your bolt, and then trim it to fit between your cap and rod. So basically you're using it for a spacer to make the hole for the journal bigger. Do it on one side, and check with plasti gauge. If it's not enough, cut another one for the other side.

One time to get the perfect fit he used the cellophane off of a pack of smokes.

For what it's worth, he is a perfectionist and I trust completely. He has saved my **** many times when other 'professionals' have hosed me.

 

[jonathan75]

I heard back from my uncle today. He said that if it is torqued to spec, and it doesn't rotate freely on the crank it will cause problems. He also said it's a pretty common and simple to fix.

Go to an auto parts store and buy .001 thick "shim stock". It is a small sheet of steel .001 thick. Put a hole through it big enough for your bolt, and then trim it to fit between your cap and rod. So basically you're using it for a spacer to make the hole for the journal bigger. Do it on one side, and check with plasti gauge. If it's not enough, cut another one for the other side.

One time to get the perfect fit he used the cellophane off of a pack of smokes.

For what it's worth, he is a perfectionist and I trust completely. He has saved my **** many times when other 'professionals' have hosed me.

Thank you for getting back to me and asking your Uncle. It makes sense and seems logical to me but Saylor Beall says not use shims in the assembly instructions. Could you ask your Uncle why he thinks they may say not to do this? Please see attached picture.

 

[trbomax]

You could do that but its only going to give the proper clearence along the long axis of the rod. You will still be tight at both sides AND now your bearing is out of round.The sides of the bearing (at the rod part line) will run hot,as will the whole crank journal.

 

[trbomax]

Thank you for getting back to me and asking your Uncle. It makes sense and seems logical to me but Saylor Beall says not use shims in the assembly instructions. Could you ask your Uncle why he thinks they may say not to do this? Please see attached picture.

We were typeing at the same time . They are saying the same thing I just did.Dont do it.

 

[jonathan75]

You could do that but its only going to give the proper clearence along the long axis of the rod. You will still be tight at both sides AND now your bearing is out of round.The sides of the bearing (at the rod part line) will run hot,as will the whole crank journal.

But I am tight on the bottom and okay on the sides. The sides I have .0015 and .001 on the bottom. The machine shop told me it is normal to be tighter on the bottom. So if I am not tight on the sides it sounds like the shim stock could work right? If your theory is correct it could actually help balance things out.

I also wonder if Saylor Beall was against using a shim on the bearing and didn't mean the rod cap. Because I won't be using a shim on the bearing but just between the two halves on the rod.

 

[jonathan75]

You know something just clicked in my head about the instructions from Saylor Beall. They said to tap the rod cap and I always thought that meant to tap and seat it before you put it together. But I just read this online from a guy named Joe back in 2001 that got me think I was doing it wrong.

"Something else you might wish to do is when you have the conrod cap on and the bolts tight and you find the rod still stiff on the crank, give the corner of the rod cap a solid tap with a hammer. More often than not the cap becomes better aligned and the rod runs freely on the crank. If your tap is too solid....don't call Joe"