Saylor-Beall Rebuild

[jonathan75]

I finally had a chance today to look over the crankshaft after picking it up from the machine shop on Friday. The good news is that the rods now spin free on the crankshaft. But they warned me that there will be some small holes in the crankshaft now. Mike said that it is part of the process from when they welded it up. But the thing I don't understand is how some of the holes are deeper then the original surface that was started with? Does the welding process melt the metal underneath when it attaches and creates these holes. Mike said it was nothing to worry about and that it will just hold oil in the pockets and help with lubrication. What does everyone think about this? Is it normal and will it cause any issues?

But at least it was ground down right and I have proper clearance now. It looks like I may be able to move on and start working on paint again.

 

[jonathan75]

Here are some pictures of the other journal also. You can see more small holes from the welding and machining process. Does anyone know if this is normal and if it will cause any issues?

I picked up some chain at HF Tools and some swivel hooks. I need the chain and swivel hooks when I lift the pump on top of the tank and when I lift the tank to paint on the bottom.

The finish table is starting to fill up. I need to put my new low pressure piston on the table also.

 

[EOC_Jason]

I'm going to guess because cranks are cast and you are welding onto that which causes the holes. But I'm sure someone with real knowledge will know.

Are those chains and swivels designed for lifting? Just kidding, I'm pretty sure something rated over 1000 lbs won't break when that pump can't weigh more than a couple hundred.

 

[jonathan75]

Are those chains and swivels designed for lifting? Just kidding, I'm pretty sure something rated over 1000 lbs won't break when that pump can't weigh more than a couple hundred.

Good point, I thought I got the right one because it was the only chain that didn't say it was not for lifting. The other one they had said it was for towing only and not to use for lifting. But I guess not telling you not to do something is not the same as saying you can do it. Hopefully someone on GJ knows if I can use it safely or not. I do plan to lift the whole 120 gallon tank with it to paint under it. The tank weighs 500 pounds and I will be using lifting eyes. And do the same with the pump to put it on the tank when completed. I will put jack stands under the feet for backup under the tank and put a little weight on the stands also.

 

[4BT]

Can't say that I would accept that crank as "fixed". Is this the same shop that freehand polished the journals? Expect a score mark on the bearing surface everywhere there is a divot.

 

[jonathan75]

Can't say that I would accept that crank as "fixed". Is this the same shop that freehand polished the journals? Expect a score mark on the bearing surface everywhere there is a divot.

Yes it is the same shop. I had to take it back to them so it would not come out of my pocket for a new crankshaft or paying someone else to fix it. Do you know why those divots formed? What can be done to avoid it? Can I run it well like this or is my crankshaft a never-ending nightmare?

 

[jonathan75]

Here is the video from the crankshaft test today.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/46xwyUK-M7U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[4BT]

Yes it is the same shop. I had to take it back to them so it would not come out of my pocket for a new crankshaft or paying someone else to fix it. Do you know why those divots formed? What can be done to avoid it? Can I run it well like this or is my crankshaft a never-ending nightmare?

Those appear to be air pockets in the weld that were revealed after machining.

 

[jonathan75]

Those appear to be air pockets in the weld that were revealed after machining.

Why are they deeper then the original material that was built up from? Did the heat release air pockets that bubbled up that was hidden just below the surface?

 

[purplezr2]

Appears like porosity to me.

 

[jonathan75]

Appears like porosity to me.

Thanks, I found this talking about it.

http://www.twi.co.uk/technical-knowledge/job-knowledge/defects-imperfections-in-welds-porosity-042/

But still I don't understand why it is deeper then it should be. The material was brought up a little bit and taken back down but the depth of the porosity is bellow what the starting surface level was and I didn't see those before.

 

[TwoInch]

im surprised they allowed that crank back out of their door like that, especially considering it was a come back already...

in reality, the crank probably would be fine with the voids. they are not nicks, or burrs, and the surface is machined. it wouldnt cause a bearing problem if there is no protrusion. it would be no different than an oil passage hole in a crank. if this was on a race crank, or any engine crank, i wouldnt trust the weld, or the surface. in a compressor, that is not making power, probably wouldnt be an issue.

now that ive said that, i would not have walked out of the machine shop with that crank having defects on bearing surfaces like that. even with it not being a high HP race motor, or any motor. that just not cool, and its unprofessional. i suggest you never trust that shop with your property again. after seeing this ****, whos to say what they used as filler material,what process(spray?) or if they preheated, or post heated? they obviously either are not experienced in crank welding, or they just dont give a **** about you as a customer.

where you go from here, i cant help you with. its not a nightmare crank, its a nightmare machine shop.

 

[TwoInch]

another thing to mention, when measuring with a micrometer, you should back off the mic, and take a measurement at every spot you wish to measure. you should not set the micrometer to the spec'd measurement and try to fit it over the crank journal.

you need to avoid scratching the bearing surface at all costs.

set the mic a couple turns larger than the spec;d measurement, slip it over the crank journal, and turn the dial down until you get contact. then lightly rotate the mic just slightly(less than a degree) to find the "center" or fattest part, and stop. then tighten the dial a little bit more, so that there is pressure on the journal. now look at the dial and see what it reads. you dont want to clamp onto the workpiece, the micrometer has little threads on its leadscrew, and they dont take well to over forcing or clamping onto things.

unscrew, slip over the workpiece, then screw the dial in until contact, find the "center", apply slight pressure, take reading.

 

[TwoInch]

But still I don't understand why it is deeper then it should be. The material was brought up a little bit and taken back down but the depth of the porosity is bellow what the starting surface level was and I didn't see those before.

when you weld a material, you not only adding material, you are melting the original material to the new material also. how deep the original material is disrupted(penetration) will vary depending on welding method, the welders set up of the machine, and his technique.

generally cranks are welded to increase the journal diameter, so that the new journal will be in fresh weld material. when you weld a crank, then take the new material off, down to the original size, you bearing surface is now in the transition point of old and new material.

i still dont believe there should be voids in the weld, or the bearing surface. i a certainly dont like their explanation that it will just help keep oil in the bearing. that is not good business..

 

[jonathan75]

Thank you for all your feedback TwoInch. When I picked up the crankshaft it already had the rods attached to show me free movement. I didn't have time to take it apart but he did tell me the holes were there. If I can run it like this I won't take it back again. If I give the crankshaft to them one more time they may plasma cut it in half and hand it back to me. I think they just may have the same attitude most people I encounter have. I call it "It is just a compressor." syndrome. Nobody cares about a air compressor or doing a job right the first time when it is just a compressor.

Thank you for the micrometer tips. I think I did do it correctly the first time when I measured the crankshaft before giving it to the shop. The other machine shop taught me the correct way but since it was turned and not polished I thought after I figure out what it is you can just do a quick check like that. I don't want to damage my micrometer or the journal so I will be more careful next time. But I noticed even if I use the correct method it still leaves some scratches when I check. I wish they had some cheap laser measuring devices so you can do a 3D scan and never touch the surface.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Maybe call up the other shop you took it to and get their opinion...

 

[mayday0017]

I have been told in the past on a crank that came new in box from the factory with spots that didn't clean up during machinig that it doesn't hurt anything. They told me if it sticks out it will ruin the bearings, but if it sticks in, it only holds oil and if anything is a "good thing" but there are no problems with it.

I would prefer it look flawless, but if the manufacture told me it is good to go as is then who am I to argue?

 

[Zrexxer]

It would be nice if it was perfect, but honestly, I think it's time to fish or cut bait. That's probably going to work fine.

I won't say "it's just an air compressor," but it is a low-horsepower, low-rpm application.

I just don't think I'd use Edwards for any future projects...

 

[TwoInch]

If I can run it like this I won't take it back again.
But I noticed even if I use the correct method it still leaves some scratches when I check. I wish they had some cheap laser measuring devices so you can do a 3D scan and never touch the surface.

one of the differences in a higher end micrometer and a lower end model will be that the anvil and spindle will have more precise contact surfaces on them, that wont scratch critical workpiece surfaces. i have seen rounded and polished, and actual rollers on the anvil and spindles.

here is an example of a ball attachment, so you dont marr up the surfaces.
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/p...Tools/Micrometers/Micrometer-Accessories/247D

as for the crank, i would run it as it. the crank will not see huge shock loads, or high RPM, no horse power. its a low RPM pump.

im almost certain, from what i can tell, the crank will be fine. the voids will cause no bearing issues. my .02

 

[FOWLER]

While not perfect I've used welded cranks with small porosity pockets in diesel app's on more than one occasion with no issues, at your rpm level it'll be fine. The pockets,as long as they are smooth and cleaned to remove grit from the grinding will have no affect on the bearing. Before dedicated racing cranks were available the oil holes were chamfered with a hand grinder and some looked worse than what your dealing with but it did the job just fine.lol

 

[crawler07]

Not to worry you as you have waited long enough to put this back together but I have to say I think the porosity isn't correct. I am building a 1970 triumph 650 motor and the cams were all scared up. I called crane cams and they said send in the cams and the would regrind them same as what you had done to your crank weld them up and grind them down. When I got them back they were perfect no pits at all and they even did a high temp coating on them. The other thing is I get the idea that the pockets will hold oil, but they may also chip away if their no chamfered. Not saying to chamfer them just saying that I have oil holes in my connecting rods at the pin area and their chamfered to avoid chipping I believe. sorry I don't know what to tell you as to how to fix it aside from finding someone that does high horsepower motors to regrind the crank guys in that industry seem to take more pride in their craftsmanship. good luck and awesome build!!!

 

[mark52621]

I agree with TwoInch on all of his posts. It is definitely time for a different shop.

I wouldn't spend anymore money or time on that crank. You've done the best you can it's time to try it, it should work. If it doesn't you need a new crank, and a new crank will need new bearings.

 

[jonathan75]

Thanks for all the feedback. I have decided to run the crankshaft like it is since it is moving freely.

My work has been busy and I have been working out of state every week. Since I have been gone so much I spent time with the family this weekend and didn't work on the compressor at all. Hopefully I will be working more local this week and I can get some things done at night.

 

[ford33]

Your family is more important than a compressor rebuild. I do enjoy reading about your rebuild. Please keep us informed when you can update the progress.

 

[Zrexxer]

My work has been busy and I have been working out of state every week.

What kind of work do you do?

 

[jonathan75]

What kind of work do you do?

I work on Japanese automation and robots. I am requested when things get really bad. If the local guys are having trouble finding the problem or the customer is upset I go out there and fix the issue and train the local guys at the same time.

In other news Automation Direct sent me more free stuff! This time a really cool T-Shirt! They sure send a lot of free goodies for just one order. Picture of shirt is attached. Just fill out the survey online after you get your order and you get a free gift.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/SC-E2S-220VAC

 

[Todd.Brock]

Take some time to spend with the family!! I am learning these projects I get myself into sometimes should be a 5 or 10k rather than a sprint. The project will still be there in a few weeks, as much as I love reading these updates!!

 

[jonathan75]

I made it back in town on Friday and got some things done in the garage this weekend. But the only thing I got done was indirectly related to the Saylor Beall rebuild. You see at the time I found the air compressor I was on vacation and knee deep in a garage cleanup/remodel. All of that got put on hold and the garage is still a huge mess. I have no room for the air compressors final location or room to paint the tank. So this weekend I started to clean up and move things around to make room for the air compressor. I found some VERY disgusting stuff that took some time to clean up. When I moved the shelf I found loads and loads of poop from these huge roaches that are living in the garage. I spayed the ones I found with some lithium grease and they died quickly. They died so fast that I think I should use caution when using the stuff for my own safety in the future.

So anyway I am packing my bags again and my son is begging to come with me but I can't take him. The bad thing about traveling is that you can't come home at night to get things done. The only thing you can do is stare at four walls in your hotel room and wish you were home.

 

[EOC_Jason]

If I lived closer I would be sneaking in your garage to finish the darn thing! The suspense is killing me and I want to see it run.

It's either going to purr like a kitten or go out in a blaze of glory, that's for sure.

 

[jonathan75]

If I lived closer I would be sneaking in your garage to finish the darn thing! The suspense is killing me and I want to see it run.

If you did sneak in please clean it up for me while you are at it. But I would need to let you in because my garage is too secure. Well that and my attack roaches that are trained to look ugly.

 

[TwoInch]

It's either going to purr like a kitten or go out in a blaze of glory, that's for sure.

i see nothing that would make be worried about it not turning out just fine.

i too an anxious to see the end result, and a video of the running compressor blowing air and chugging away!

 

[jonathan75]

i too an anxious to see the end result, and a video of the running compressor blowing air and chugging away!

I am considering creating a YouTube live event. Everyone can see it turn on the first time live in real time.

Since I was out of town all last week, this past Saturday was the only day I could do anything and I spent Sunday with the family. When I got back I found that the boric acid did the job and there were many dead roaches waiting for me when I got back home. After admiring my killing I removed everything from the large Costco shelf and moved it down to create room for the air compressor. Next I need to clean up everything you see in the last picture to make space for it along the wall. I can hardly move in the garage now because of everything being moved around. After the partial cleanup is compete I can continue real compressor work. Hopefully I will work local this week so I can work in the garage at night and not sit in a boring hotel room.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Are you still going to paint the tank?

 

[jonathan75]

Are you still going to paint the tank?

Yes, that is next after I finish painting all the pump parts.

 

[TwoInch]

borax kills them things? good to know. they are palmeto bugs right? not actual roaches. we dont have that stuff up here, but i have dealt with plenty in SC at families places.

 

[jonathan75]

borax kills them things? good to know. they are palmeto bugs right? not actual roaches. we dont have that stuff up here, but i have dealt with plenty in SC at families places.

They are called that too but really they are just a big roach. Here is something from Orkin talking about it.

"The term “palmetto bug” is a general name commonly used to refer to several species of cockroaches in the southern U.S. and even some beetles. Other cockroach names are “waterbug” or “Croton bug.” Unfortunately, these names can lead to confusion and misidentification, since any moderate- to large-sized cockroaches and even beetles are often called these by the public. Since habits and control measures often are species-specific, it is best to consult a pest control professional who can properly identify the species and then select control measures.

A cockroach species commonly called a “palmetto bug” is the American cockroach (Periplaneta americana). Adult American cockroaches are large and winged. Their coloration is dark brown with a cream-colored prothorax that has dark markings that resemble sunglasses. American cockroaches prefer damp conditions and often are found in sewers, woodpiles and mulch. They will fly to lights. This particular behavior is disconcerting for homeowners who encounter a large roach that flies near their face when entering doors with lights nearby in the evening. Another large species that may be called a “palmetto bug” is the smokybrown cockroach. The adults are a dark mahogany color and winged as well. They lack the sunglasses markings on the prothorax and are slightly smaller."

http://www.orkin.com/cockroaches/difference-between-a-cockroach-and-a-palmetto-bug/

 

[ford33]

Yikes! I didn't know cockroaches fly. Just seeing the bugs crawling is enough for me.

 

[TwoInch]

have you tried diatomaceous earth for bug control? like borax, its a natural mineral from the ground. can be used instead of boric acid or borax, less contamination/toxic risk.

the stuff is good for so many things, worming animals, killing fleas, spiders and pest bugs(roaches, bed bugs, etc..), and its nontoxic. people can ingest it to rid themselves of internal worms and other parasites. instead of acting as a poison like boric acid/borax, the D.E. kills by dehydrating by contact with the exoskeleton.

also used for filtering water, abrasive in toothpastes,

it is also a super desiccant, can use small packs for tool box.

i keep a bag or two around for general uses. can usually get feed grade stuff at farm type animal feed stores.

 

[jonathan75]

Yikes! I didn't know cockroaches fly. Just seeing the bugs crawling is enough for me.

The type I have don't fly but I have seen that before in Texas. Roaches are gross enough but flying roaches are stuff nightmares are made of. In Texas I had some hit me in the face when I was sitting down. They are so big that they knock on your door and ask to come in your house!

have you tried diatomaceous earth for bug control? like borax, its a natural mineral from the ground. can be used instead of boric acid or borax, less contamination/toxic risk.

the stuff is good for so many things, worming animals, killing fleas, spiders and pest bugs(roaches, bed bugs, etc..), and its nontoxic. people can ingest it to rid themselves of internal worms and other parasites. instead of acting as a poison like boric acid/borax, the D.E. kills by dehydrating by contact with the exoskeleton.

also used for filtering water, abrasive in toothpastes,

it is also a super desiccant, can use small packs for tool box.

i keep a bag or two around for general uses. can usually get feed grade stuff at farm type animal feed stores.

I have heard of diatomaceous earth and looked for it before but at the time couldn't find it. But boric acid also works by dehydrating. In the big picture boric acid is not very toxic to humans. You would have to ingest a lot to cause a problem. When I clean it up I will wear a mask to limit exposure though. I will keep my eye out for diatomaceous earth again.

 

[Todd.Brock]

Ya know. I have ...heard... That compressed air is an effective pest control.