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School me on some basic AC tools for a car

oleblue

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I buy and sell trucks cars every now and again and I have a fair knowledge of the ac system, changing out components and finding obvious leaks and what not. It would be nice if I could get the tools and do some of the things myself instead of paying someone to do it.

Right now,I have a set of brand new robinair gauges and adapters for R-12 that a friend gave me. What else would I need for occasional ac work such as charging, vacuuming down and finding leaks? I'm not looking to spend a fortune as I would only do it every now and again. I saw a vacuum pump that used an air compressor to create a vacuum for $35. I'm not too well versed on the pumps or any of these ac tools as a matter of fact.

I know you have to have a license to deal with R-12 so I may or may not have to take it to someone then but otherwise I would rather do the work myself.
 
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38Chevy454

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Get a real vacuum pump, not one of those venturi vacuum devices. A real pump will give you higher level of vacuum and is much quieter. A compressor running at full speed to keep up with the air leak (what the venturi pump is effectively) is noisy and not the best for your compressor. Getting the license to buy R-12 is easy, online test. A leak checker needs to be good for R-12 and R-134a, the older R-12 type sense chlorine, which will not work for R-134a. You can use simple soap solution to help find leaks if they are big enough to make bubbles. Get a big O-ring kit, to have the common fix sizes at hand. Always lube the O-rings before installation so they do not pinch and go into position correctly.
 

diesel research

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Kind of a must.

Recovery machines are often these "all in one" devices that gauge, weigh, recover, and vacuum.

Vacuum pumps ONLY pull air/moisture out of an empty system, and help look for leaks under vacuum. They DO NOT remove freon. I mean they do, but not in a legal sense of the word.

A recovery machine will pull freon out of a car and stuff it back into a cylinder. A vacuum pump usually just vents out of the oil fill cap into the atmosphere.

If you can afford the fines, do what you do...
 

pipsters

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If the cars you are buying/fixing have leaks you don't need a recovery machine because it has already leaked out...

I haven't ever sucked down my car (8 years of just adding 134a every summer) so I can't imagine the vacuum the cheap air powered pump won't do a decent job. It is $15 at Harbor Freight.
 
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dclassical

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I have never dealt with R12 so I do not remember if you need to be certified, but a few years ago I took and passed the 609 test (just for the fun of it... it is fairly cheap). Study the materials for a couple of hours, understand the principles and you do not need to memorize that much, then take the test and that is it.
 

diesel research

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The test is open book and can even be "open friend" .

Pipsters, that is very far from the truth. If the system is empty, how exactly do you plan on finding the leak in the first place? can't bubble a empty or vacuumed system. Can't depend on uv. Can't use an ultrasonic ear.

About the only thing you can do is look for dirt clods near connections/seals.

So, conventional diyer method is to add more r134 and try to find the leak. If it's a "gross" leak, you won't have to recover because it will leak out quickly. Let's say it is a little slower. Maybe a week or 2. Now what? You identified a leak at the firewall, and the system is partially charged. Just crack open the lines and release, so you can fix the o-ring? Ya, sure if you want to face a $10,000/instance fine. Or you pay someone to **** it out. Or you wait a few weeks or a month til it leaks out naturally. No, thanks.


Vacuuming an empty system is because one the freon leaves, the water/air enters. The moisture is the concern (so is non condensible air, but moisture is what needs the deep vacuum)

By drawing a deep vacuum, you lower the boiling point of the water. Combined with a heatsoaked engine bay, you can remove nearly all of the water. It wreaks havoc on the system. Could freeze, causes corrosion/acid, and may cause lube problems with the compressor.

There is a difference between constantly topping of a partially charged system with a death-can, and properly repairing a leak on a completely empty system.
 

dclassical

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Very good points from diesel_research and I would invest in some nitrogen, really not that expensive (even for myself as a DIY and not business).
 

diesel research

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Yes, nitrogen is a good bit cheaper. I elaborated in the link in post 3 about mixing nitrogen and residential type r22 for this purpose. (sniffers can't smell straight nitrogen)
 

scott37300

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I bought a snap on act5555 sniffer a few years back. I don't do much ac work but it was used and cheap so I picked it up figuring that some day it might come in handy for finding ac leaks. From what I have read is this tester only for r12 and pretty much obsolete today with most cars being r134?

I also have a uview ultra violet leak kit that does oil and ac. Are these black light leak detector kits any good or is a r134 sniffer tester the best way to find leaks?

Like I said I don't do much ac work but sometimes having a leak finder around can come in handy. I don't think I would go buy a new sniffer but if they are what is needed I might keep an eye open for a used one.
 

diesel research

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A r12 type may not be useless. Read above link to find details. If the sniffer detects chlorinated refrigerants, and your system is r134, well...guess that means you put a lil chlorinated refrigerant in the system and get to sniffin'.

Sometimes one works, sometimes the other works.

Let's say you have an evap leak deep within the bowels of your dash. UV dye will work if you have a borescope and are aiming in the right place. On the other hand, maybe the sniffer in the vent will pick up the "scent".

Other times due to fumes, brake cleaner, and other solvents, you end up with false alarms and maybe dye is easier. Maybe someone passed gas and set it off? Ok, I don't think that is true, but one guy did seem to have the ability to set it off when he was near.

Sometimes you might prefer to just use a micro bubbling liquid like bigblu (not the same as soapy water)

Some of the residential guys use something like the robinaire ultrasonic "listener" and can hear leaks.

Other leaks may require specific pressures/temperatures to show their head.
___________________

Don't forget a basic thermometer to measure actual performance. Some cars just don't cool so great from the factory and may be performing at factory specs.

__________________

Sometimes you just have to go oldschool and use your bare hands along the lines. You risk some painful burns in some places, but othertimes it is fastest way to find a blocked line acting as a restrictor. Maybe backyard_billy used leakstop on a system that had moisture in it.

____________________

While it is not exactly a tool, you may want to consider keeping a few of these in stock.

13128Lg.jpg


It uses a compression type fitting and has ferrules for 5/16-3/8-1/2" lines and ferrules can even be mixed and matched to create adapters/reducers. You are also protecting your work, because it is a filter and may help prevent comebacks. Depending on where the leak is (pin hole in hard line or strait section of condenser) it may also serve as a valid way of repairing the line as opposed to replacing. They are about $30 and install on an evac'ed system with a tubing cutter and wrench. Some have reusable elements and could serve as a flushing mechanism.
 
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oleblue

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Diesel research, man you really know your stuff when it comes to AC. So a vacuum pump is used to remove moisture and water from the lines, its not used to find leaks right? Do they make a can of freon with dye in it that I can charge my system with and check for leaks?

That being said would the links I posted above be good for a vacuum pump and leak tester? I have a neighbor who has a evac machine.

Sorry for all the questions, just tryin to learn.
 

Toolhorder

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I've working on automotive A/C systems for years. It's best to have more than one method to check for leaks IMO.

I have a yokogawa A/C sniffer. It's one of the best units I've used. No false readings whatsoever. Much better than the Tif/Snap-on/Robin-air sniffers.
2j26q1g.jpg


I also use soapy water and a Mastercool master dye kit.

That usually allows me to fix 99% of them out there.

I have used compressed air once in an A/C class with a problematic Buick and it worked well w/soapy water on the outside. (that would solve your problem adding refrigerent to the system to check for leaks and it's free)
 

Garage5.9

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pcld33t.jpg


never used it personally but seen it in use. I heard the burning r12 creates some nasty phosgene gas
 
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oleblue

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I've working on automotive A/C systems for years. It's best to have more than one method to check for leaks IMO.

I have a yokogawa A/C sniffer. It's one of the best units I've used. No false readings whatsoever. Much better than the Tif/Snap-on/Robin-air sniffers.
2j26q1g.jpg


I also use soapy water and a Mastercool master dye kit.

That usually allows me to fix 99% of them out there.

I have used compressed air once in an A/C class with a problematic Buick and it worked well w/soapy water on the outside. (that would solve your problem adding refrigerent to the system to check for leaks and it's free)


How would you go about adding air to the system? Certain fitting you need?
 

diesel research

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Diesel research, man you really know your stuff when it comes to AC. So a vacuum pump is used to remove moisture and water from the lines, its not used to find leaks right? Do they make a can of freon with dye in it that I can charge my system with and check for leaks?

That being said would the links I posted above be good for a vacuum pump and leak tester? I have a neighbor who has a evac machine.

Sorry for all the questions, just tryin to learn.

A vacuum pump could quickly tell you that you do have a leak. It cannot tell you where very easily, since it is sucking inwards. Dye won't likely come out, and soapy water would likely get sucked in. Sniffer wouldn't work because there is nothing to sniffer.

An ultrasonic ear may hear a whistling noise.

One more thing. Since you will be working with "dirty nasty" older used vehicles, you come into a whole new set of problems. You get a guy with a slow leak like pipster. He gets tired of adding cans every year. He goes down to autozone and finds this stuff called "leak stop". Sounds like the answer to all of his problems. It seals pinholes on contact with moisture.

Only 1 problem! At some point in time his system went completely empty. Moisture got INSIDE his system. That stuff sets up like concrete when contacting moisture. Maybe it sealed off a leaking service port, and now you can't get any readings. Maybe it sealed off his txv/evaporator/FOT or various other small clearances. Or maybe it goes inside of your equipment and gunks up all of your test equipment.

That is where a stop leak detector kit comes into play. Along with filters and solvent flushes to remove it if it hasn't hardened up. If it has, you might end up replacing everything. I lost a gauge due to this. Tore it down and found red high side was plugged solid. Imagine JB weld in the system.




Next problem is god only knows what kind of "refrigerant" is inside the system. Maybe there is air? Air could form an explosive mixture in the right proportions. 40/60 if I'm not mistaken? It will also make your pressure readings look funny. It may also have butane, propane, r12, r22, and a whole slew of other residential or industrial refrigerants. Identifiers are electronic analyzers that tell you what is in there. They are expensive. If you cannot swing that kind of cash, it is best not to put any old refrigerant back into the system.


Yes they sell small cans with dye in them. I don't recommend the small cans due to a few hassles and added expense. Buy a bulk cylinder, properly measure by weight, and use an oil/dye injector. Which leads to the final part of the equation.

They tell you to catch any oil you recover, and measure. Then dump any oil out of old parts you are replacing like a condenser or leaking compressor, and simply add the same amount of fresh new oil back into the system. See any problem? What if it did not have the correct amount of oil in it to begin with? If the entire system was flushed or replaced, you could simply add the fact spec quantity of oil. If it leaked out over time or backyard_billy has randomly added more, I am not sure how to know how much to add. I know a select few actually have a way of checking, but this is one area where I do not know the answers, and am actively looking.
 
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oleblue

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Wow... good stuff man, what would be a sign that I have a leak while using a vacuum pump? Thanks for all your help.
 

diesel research

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Wow... good stuff man, what would be a sign that I have a leak while using a vacuum pump? Thanks for all your help.

It either doesn't draw vacuum or doesn't hold vacuum. On a standard gauge set, it is depicted as "negative" pressure. 0 is empty, but than draws down below 0, towards 30.

Not all systems will leak under vacuum though. Sometimes torn rubber acts like a flap or check valve. When you vacuum it, it may seal tighter, but leak when you put enough pressure on it.

Which also brings up the point, a vacuum/micron gauge is much better to read than the pressure gauge when it comes to vacuuming system and seeing if it holds over extended periods of time.
Once you get used to your setup/type of vehicles you will often be able to just watch how fast the needle moves to be able to estimate if it has a leak or how large.

Always ask yourself everytime one comes in that even needs a little "top off"
where did the refrigerant go?

Had one that leaked, but just couldn't seem to find the leak. I had the plastic valve caps still on. I took them off and noticed there was a bit of resistance and a psssh! sound. The schrader valve itself had a slight leak. Mean while, I am looking everywhere else except the right place (has rear ac too!) Oddly enough, minor leaking was allowed from schrader valves on that vehicle so long as it did not leak when plastic cap was installed. You could easily have gauges on the ports while searching, and never find it.
 

Toolhorder

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How would you go about adding air to the system? Certain fitting you need?

Hi,
You use find a fitting. It was an R12 system so finding an adapter is easy. For R134a you may find a gauge set adapter that has the R134 fitting on one side and a threaded piece on the side of the adapter.
 
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oleblue

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I have a robinair adapter kit, I will have to look at it when I get home and see if if has a fitting for that.
 

38Chevy454

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diesel research has given a lot of good advice. A/C is not real hard if you understand how it works. The biggest issue is figuring out where the leak is, or why a system is not operating correctly.

As stated, who knows what someone has done in the past. Either the refrigerant type, or what "fix in a can" was put into the system. Proper flushing of the system is crucial if you ever have a compressor fail. Flushing could be good practice even for clearing the system of any unknown junk and providing a clean starting point.
 

scott37300

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diesel research has given a lot of good advice. A/C is not real hard if you understand how it works. The biggest issue is figuring out where the leak is, or why a system is not operating correctly.

As stated, who knows what someone has done in the past. Either the refrigerant type, or what "fix in a can" was put into the system. Proper flushing of the system is crucial if you ever have a compressor fail. Flushing could be good practice even for clearing the system of any unknown junk and providing a clean starting point.

What does flushing the system consist of?
 

diesel research

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Consists of pushing pressurized solvent through the lines/evap/condenser

800523_lg.jpg


Many vehicles now have the receiver dry (txv equipped) built into the condenser, so I am not sure if that is ok to do?

Many of the condenser/evaps are "parallel flow" which means forcing solvent may not do the trick, because the solvent can bypass clogged tubes and run through other tubes.

Almost always works with basic lines though.

Still, add the inline filter, you are covering your behind.
 

38Chevy454

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You can flush the system using solvent and an air hose. DR showed a nice set-up, it does not have to be that fancy. Just pour the solvent in the line and then blow it through with slight air pressure. Flushing helps get out any particles or contamination, and helps remove any oil or other liquids. Make sure to blow it all out good. Parallel flow condenser does make it harder.

Pulling vacuum after you flush and have it all sealed up will remove any remaining solvent as it vaporizes. Don't worry, the new oil will not be removed by the vacuum. BTW, higher temps help make the vacuum work that much better as it helps drive off any moisture better.

In the old days, R-12 was a great flush solvent, but that is not true today - due to EPA rules and also cost.
 
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