Scored Another Major Tool

[cannuck]

I have been collecting junk for a new shop on our farm for years now. Meant to start building 2 years ago, but the unbelievable price of materials meant just go back to collecting things to make this a far more DIY project.

It all started with finding a matching pair of 5 ton overhead cranes (47' bridges). I literally designed the shop around them (for obvious reasons). I have small versions of everything I need/use in home workshop (26 x 39 heated and about a bit more under roof but cold). but key tools will be cranes, shear, brake, saw, mill, lathe, ironworker and newer welding equip. Got saw 2 years ago (Marvel #8) and lathe almost 1 year back (Colchester 15 x 50 variable speed). Have passed on several press brakes too large (need pit), too small (need to make trailer parts), too expensive (newish digital). Did not want to chase and move stuff at this time of year, but a big steel fab shop in a small town went **** up last year and they were bought out of bankruptcy by a company with other shops. They took all of the newer or better stuff and auctioned off the rest. Mostly too well used up for me, but they catalogued a 200 ton press brake (too small for me) that out of curiosity I had a look at. Not list correctly as it was a 400 ton Accupress from the '80s with a 12' bed and 10'+ between posts. EXACTLY what I want/need! Found the operator and got full story so jumped into a sale where stuff was going stupid high. Only 3 serious bidders on the brake and once the price got up a bit, only two of us left. The other guy must have been just like me: knew exactly what it was and what it was worth. Hate these blind online auctions as it is hard to figure out a strategy to blow the other bidder(s) out of the water, but in the end, he gave up while we were still far, far below market value (25 tons of steel in a remotish town will slow down the city slickers a bit). I had the load and uload quoted and arranged and trailer rental booked before bidding, so should be no more surprises. It will have to sit outside as my indoor storage is closing (beset bud trading the land it sits on). Will be strong incentive to get the darn shop floor poured (will probably place this before doing walls and roof as it is far too heavy for my overhead cranes).

Will post some pics when I get up there (rush job in opposite direction tomorrow).

 

[Retroman]

Congrats nice score, Looking forward to following your shop build.

 

[cannuck]

Sorry to be so late to the party, but things kind of busy this week. Got the brake unloaded yesterday (guessed it was too heavy for my little 12.5 ton crane - that I keep down to 10 tons max lift - and it came in at 30,000 lbs. so was a good call). Have to protect it from weather before week is done (super nice right now). You can see the big label on there that made everyone think it really was an Accupress. Got to load it and deck the load inside of the shop that was closed down, that was convenient, but trip home was freezing rain and drifting snow - not really fun stuff. Also got some tooling (3 x top dies) with it. Set down 6 railroad ties and had 4 pieces of 1" plate 2'x2' as bearing plates. Back bladed the site with D5 first and did not need to shim to get reasonably equal loading. Will see how that works when it settles. I can always pick up one end and shim if it starts to move.

 

[toplessHO]

how are you going to weatherize the storage?
tarp with light bulb inside and a few bags of charcoal?

 

[cannuck]

grease on exposed shaft of piston and possibly the tooling, probably shrink wrap on same then tarp over the whole thing. Sitting outside so light bulb wouldn't do anything. Loosing my large indoor storage area and tools there will go into a 53' dry van, but this thing is way too big and heavy for that. My other storage shelter is almost full and overhead crane way too light and only 16' under roof tension member so no room for big crane to move it.

 

[dr_clyde]

That’s a lot of iron. You said you’re making trailers? I assume this is to bend the frame rails or something similar?

Accurpress makes a nice brake. I’ve used several and they are on my short list along with Cincinnati.

 

[cannuck]

Instead of light beams (that happen to be made in Selkirk MB by one of our customers) I want to break up some "W" shaped members. I also tend to make a lot of other fabricated parts that I use the brake in a shop owned by a guy who started in the aluminum fab business in my airboat factory some decades ago. Still need a plasma table tocut lightening holes in them and split I beams (to make deeper shear webs)

 

[mogandave]

That’s a lot of iron. You said you’re making trailers? I assume this is to bend the frame rails or something similar?

Accurpress makes a nice brake. I’ve used several and they are on my short list along with Cincinnati.

Accurpress does make a very nice brake for the money, but I don't they're really in the same class as Cincinnati. Wysong & LVD makes/made pretty decent brake as well.

It takes a lot to wear out a press-brake. Should be a lot out there if you don't need to satisfy OSHA.

 

[mogandave]

grease on exposed shaft of piston and possibly the tooling, probably shrink wrap on same then tarp over the whole thing. Sitting outside so light bulb wouldn't do anything. Loosing my large indoor storage area and tools there will go into a 53' dry van, but this thing is way too big and heavy for that. My other storage shelter is almost full and overhead crane way too light and only 16' under roof tension member so no room for big crane to move it.

If you can run it all the way up and block it. you don't have to worry much about the cylinders.

Boeshield is nice for the tooling, and a gallon goes a long way.

Nice press!

 

[toplessHO]

grease on exposed shaft of piston and possibly the tooling, probably shrink wrap on same then tarp over the whole thing. Sitting outside so light bulb wouldn't do anything. Loosing my large indoor storage area and tools there will go into a 53' dry van, but this thing is way too big and heavy for that. My other storage shelter is almost full and overhead crane way too light and only 16' under roof tension member so no room for big crane to move it.

you use the light bulb to raise the temp under the tarp to above ambient.
This slows down condensation,which cold metal has.

 

[toplessHO]

ideal method would be to make a big plastic bag,seal it up and inflate with a wet vac.
Make sure theres plenty of desiccant inside the bag

 

[cannuck]

Boeshield on order. About one chance in a million of getting the tarp sealed, and with out winds, it WILL punch a hole in any fabric that can move in short order. So, wax (Boesheld) over the bare metal (I have a lathe in storage to do same with - but inside) and will tie the tarping over the brake with probably rope. Shrink rap and UV don't get along at all.

For the light bulb idea: 15 tons of steel on one side and -40 degree wind on the other with only a single layer tarp between - not going to work. Also, storage yard has power but there is a roadway between the transformer/distribution panel and the area where the big stuff goes. Far cheaper/better to seal bare metal with wax and overall protect with tarp.

 

[dr_clyde]

Accurpress does make a very nice brake for the money, but I don't they're really in the same class as Cincinnati. Wysong & LVD makes/made pretty decent brake as well.

It takes a lot to wear out a press-brake. Should be a lot out there if you don't need to satisfy OSHA.

Yeah Cincinnati has always been on the top of the heap as far as I’m concerned. Accurpress is for sure a tier below the Cinci but still a very nice brake.

I wouldn’t mind an Amada but I prefer the American style tooling.

 

[cannuck]

I would love a shiny new digital brake but it would take a HUGE bite out of construction budget. I expect the volume of use would not justify the cost anyhow. This immitation accupress is all mechanical and only does equal stroke on each end but should do everything I need. Most of my time is on all mechanical anyhow and I have a set of grandsons to train as they grow up and want them to learn the old school ways first before letting digitalis set in. Has about 2 feet of backstop travel again manually set. 11 YO has mastered tooling on the 20ton, has run a few jobs on the 100 ton and licking his chops to get hands on the 12 footer.

 

[mogandave]

Yeah Cincinnati has always been on the top of the heap as far as I’m concerned. Accurpress is for sure a tier below the Cinci but still a very nice brake.

I wouldn’t mind an Amada but I prefer the American style tooling.

I'm a little mixed on the tooling. Working with European style tooling is not much different than working with US tooling that has a tang, except that you can't swap upper and lower. I don't like any of the up-acting presses.

If you just want to make generic brakes, whether the tooling is US or European does not make much difference, as long as it's in decent shape. US tooling is typically much cheaper, and lasts a long time, even in heavy production.

Great source for tooling and ideas:

Perfection Press Brake Manufacturers, Press Brake Dies Los Angeles

PERFECTION MACHINE & TOOL WORKS designs and manufactures general and special purpose press brake dies that, with proper guarding, will safely produce parts for our customers in Los Angeles.

www.pmtw.com

 

[mogandave]

I would love a shiny new digital brake but it would take a HUGE bite out of construction budget. I expect the volume of use would not justify the cost anyhow. This immitation accupress is all mechanical and only does equal stroke on each end but should do everything I need. Most of my time is on all mechanical anyhow and I have a set of grandsons to train as they grow up and want them to learn the old school ways first before letting digitalis set in. Has about 2 feet of backstop travel again manually set. 11 YO has mastered tooling on the 20ton, has run a few jobs on the 100 ton and licking his chops to get hands on the 12 footer.

A shiny new digital brake for what it sounds like you want to do would be a waste of money.

Does the back-gage have a hand-crank? Do you have to square it up every time you set it? What kind of shape is the tooling in?

Did you mean to imply it was not an Acurpress?

 

[mogandave]

Yeah Cincinnati has always been on the top of the heap as far as I’m concerned.

We had a 100-ton, 12' Cincinati that was manufactured in 1944. We moved it with the rest of a sound attenuator to California in 1997. In about 2005 we had to replace it for "safety" reasons and moved it to our plant in Thailand where it went into production again making sound attenuators as well as a variety of other HVAC products. In 2015 we replaced it with a new Accurpress Advantage because set-ups were taking too long. We then moved it to our Dubai plant when we started building sound attenuators there. As far as I know, it is still in operation there.


I have no idea of what it went through from 1944 to 1997, but I know it was in daily production and did not suffer a single day of down-time with from 1997 to 2020 (when I retired) except when we moved it, and a day or two when we powerized the old back-gage. For long production runs of single brakes it was actually much faster than the new press.

 

[dr_clyde]

My neighbors have 3 Accurpress CNC hydraulic brakes and an old Cincinnati mechanical and they’ve been making parts for decades in some cases. Lower tonnage than OP is using, I think their biggest is a 12’ 175 ton so nothing crazy but still nice machines to set up and use.

Brakes are not nearly as complex as other machine tools but still are subject to the same attention to detail and build quality issues that mills and lathes have.

Precision forming is hard to do on a machine that isn’t consistent and adjustable in a way that is controlled. All bets go out the window if something is flexing or not consistent.

 

[dutchgray]

One thing I have done for outside machine storage, after wrapping up in tarps is to get some clip and tube scaffolding and some metal roofing sheets and build a roof over the machine, keeps the rain off but only takes a few hours to set up.
It helps we already have enough scaffolding to go round about three normal sized houses and loads of left over, damaged or offcuts metal roof.

 

[mogandave]

Yeah, big bummer with tarps and whatnot in high winds is that once it gets loose or a tear starts, they end up beating to heck whatever they're supposed to be protecting.

I would try to get it as level front to back as possible to avoid any twist.

If have good tarps and pallet strapping stuff (or good rope) you should be okay.

 

[cannuck]

A shiny new digital brake for what it sounds like you want to do would be a waste of money.

Does the back-gage have a hand-crank? Do you have to square it up every time you set it? What kind of shape is the tooling in?

Did you mean to imply it was not an Acurpress?

There is a acme thread lead screw on each side of the backstop, but I have not had the chance to even look at whether or not the two sides are synchronized and actuated (wiring, foot pedals, etc. wrapped up and covering that area). The tooling is in really nice shape. Normally, I see all kinds of scars on lower dies and the three exposed sides are dead clean and smoothe. My guess is that with tanks and storage bins as their product it has seldom if ever seen flat bar or other high localized load jobs. The other three top dies have mild surface corossion as they have sat on a shelf untouched for decades. One 10' 1/2" radius die (that I will use a lot), one straight sharp blade and one offset sharp similar to the pair (8'+4') that came installed. If there is a duplicate I will cut one up for box and pan setups.

It is definitely NOT an Accupress. The "blades" may be, but I found the guy at local dealer who had been trying to support it in the past and he said no question it was a copy as many parts do not fit from 400-12. It had recently undergone full electrical and control re-fit as it was not up to code. Nobody could provide a serial number - and in the end that was what made me ask around. Apparently in the 70s there were a few companies on the prairies that copied other machine tools, and this is probably one of those. Also the weight was wrong. 40012 should come in around 40k. Shop thought it was in mid 20s (based on what moved it last time). It came in just over 30k. I definitely got the feeling that the workers of the closed down facility had no regard for their lifting equipment as it was a 100% lift for the 2 x 7.5s on a monorail and they said the load did not sound to them to be significant. Good thing cranes have a large DSF. I did not let them traverse down the rail so backed the trailer under the load.

 

[cannuck]

Cancelled my Boeshield order as backordered from Canadian distributor. Went with Cosmoline Weathershield directly from Cosmoline (no Canadian distributor) so will see how shipping works (UPS ground - usually something I will NOT do because they screw you over with ridiculous brokerage fees.

Only thing I am hesitating on is tooling. I will eventually want an Amada style wing lower die as there is a Canadian manufacturer of similar, just not going to rush into it for a while (no sense anyhow as storage for now).

 

[dutchgray]

No point buying new tooling for a machine until your ready to set it up and put it to work, different matter if you dropped on some nos tooling for cheap, which isn't very likely.

 

[tool_scrounge]

I use LPS3 for long term metal storage. It works well even on covered bare metal outdoors. I buy it by the gallon and brush it on.

 

[mogandave]

There is a acme thread lead screw on each side of the backstop, but I have not had the chance to even look at whether or not the two sides are synchronized and actuated (wiring, foot pedals, etc. wrapped up and covering that area). The tooling is in really nice shape. Normally, I see all kinds of scars on lower dies and the three exposed sides are dead clean and smoothe. My guess is that with tanks and storage bins as their product it has seldom if ever seen flat bar or other high localized load jobs. The other three top dies have mild surface corossion as they have sat on a shelf untouched for decades. One 10' 1/2" radius die (that I will use a lot), one straight sharp blade and one offset sharp similar to the pair (8'+4') that came installed. If there is a duplicate I will cut one up for box and pan setups.

You sound pretty well set for tooling.

I (and the guys) love treating the rusty tooling with OSPHO (or a similar product) rather than an oily product as it's much nicer to handle and lasts for years.

It is definitely NOT an Accupress. The "blades" may be, but I found the guy at local dealer who had been trying to support it in the past and he said no question it was a copy as many parts do not fit from 400-12. It had recently undergone full electrical and control re-fit as it was not up to code. Nobody could provide a serial number - and in the end that was what made me ask around. Apparently in the 70s there were a few companies on the prairies that copied other machine tools, and this is probably one of those. Also the weight was wrong. 40012 should come in around 40k. Shop thought it was in mid 20s (based on what moved it last time). It came in just over 30k. I definitely got the feeling that the workers of the closed down facility had no regard for their lifting equipment as it was a 100% lift for the 2 x 7.5s on a monorail and they said the load did not sound to them to be significant. Good thing cranes have a large DSF. I did not let them traverse down the rail so backed the trailer under the load.

It sure looks like an Accurpress.

The control/curtain refit scams turned a lot of good equipment to ****. It was pretty easy to dump $20-30K into an old press-brake that made them much more difficult to use, and just resulted in them being red-tagged for days at a time every other week.

 

[mogandave]

Cancelled my Boeshield order as backordered from Canadian distributor. Went with Cosmoline Weathershield directly from Cosmoline (no Canadian distributor) so will see how shipping works (UPS ground - usually something I will NOT do because they screw you over with ridiculous brokerage fees.

Only thing I am hesitating on is tooling. I will eventually want an Amada style wing lower die as there is a Canadian manufacturer of similar, just not going to rush into it for a while (no sense anyhow as storage for now).

What do you want to use the wing die for?

 

[cannuck]

What do you want to use the wing die for?

I may not be using the right term. The one I am thinking of has the bottom die set up as two "wings" with a cylindrical base on each side in matching machined grooves. when you push the top die in the "wings" roll to keep from putting a sharp edge against the bend.

 

[cannuck]

Got another major "tool" yesterday. I am forced by costs to make this shop a DIY project, so have bought an 8 yd transit mixer, cement silo/weighout, foam generator, loader, crane, "monsoon" concrete bucket for placement, D5, compactors, dump truck, drilled in a well, etc. plus excavator on long term loan. What I need is to reach the top side of things when I start to put the building together, so yesterday bought a Skyjack 40C electric, self propelled man lift (40' max working height). Thought I came in to it cheap until I priced out a new set of 8 x 320amp 6V deep cycles....well over 5 grand!!! It needs batteries and I knew that, but since it got added to the catalogue on day of sale and I was out of town, no chance to go over it and research battery costs.

 

[fordkid88]

That’s a lot of iron. You said you’re making trailers? I assume this is to bend the frame rails or something similar?

Accurpress makes a nice brake. I’ve used several and they are on my short list along with Cincinnati.

We have an accupress in the shop, 250 ton capacity and we have all sorts of issues with it. I'd go cincinnati if you can swing it

 

[mogandave]

Got another major "tool" yesterday. I am forced by costs to make this shop a DIY project, so have bought an 8 yd transit mixer, cement silo/weighout, foam generator, loader, crane, "monsoon" concrete bucket for placement, D5, compactors, dump truck, drilled in a well, etc. plus excavator on long term loan. What I need is to reach the top side of things when I start to put the building together, so yesterday bought a Skyjack 40C electric, self propelled man lift (40' max working height). Thought I came in to it cheap until I priced out a new set of 8 x 320amp 6V deep cycles....well over 5 grand!!! It needs batteries and I knew that, but since it got added to the catalogue on day of sale and I was out of town, no chance to go over it and research battery costs.

Can you convert it to AC?

 

[mogandave]

I may not be using the right term. The one I am thinking of has the bottom die set up as two "wings" with a cylindrical base on each side in matching machined grooves. when you push the top die in the "wings" roll to keep from putting a sharp edge against the bend.

Are you wanting to get no marks on the brake or really sharp brakes or both?

If you're just wanting no marks, a roll of die-liner would be cheaper unless your productions will be very high.

 

[matt_i]

My experience with general tarps is pretty poor thru winter winds but can be assisted with preparing any sharp edges and corners with cardboard or fabric, and then attempting to ratchet strap around the machine like a large horizontal belt. Then apply your bungees. I've cut up a lot of brake rotors into pie shaped sections and zip-tied (uv stabilized ties) those to tarp grommets to keep the flapping down.

I like LPS3 out of a trigger spray, spray it on and wipe it on every single bare metal surface. A chip brush can be used to work into corners and enclosed areas. Any electrical controls should be extra protected for moisture and also against nesting mice. Some drops of peppermint oil or mothballs can work.

Good luck getting the cranes erected, floor poured, building finished and the heat turned on!

 

[mogandave]

My experience with general tarps is pretty poor thru winter winds but can be assisted with preparing any sharp edges and corners with cardboard or fabric, and then attempting to ratchet strap around the machine like a large horizontal belt. Then apply your bungees. I've cut up a lot of brake rotors into pie shaped sections and zip-tied (uv stabilized ties) those to tarp grommets to keep the flapping down.

Zip-tying to the tooling might hold it down pretty good...

 

[cannuck]

Can you convert it to AC?

Had this same conversation with my engineer yesterday. Yeah, I could power the pumps with AC motors (not sure if they have appropriate flanges, though) as I have a 20 KVA genset that is trailered and I could convert to diesel but in reality I have too many projects and too much work to get done, so the silly price of batteries is going to have to do. Not decided yet if I will go AGM or flooded cell (quite a price difference). In automotive use, most AGMs have been a huge disappointment and cost, so I am tending to think flooded cell. Got the service and parts manuals, but they refer only to a part number for the batteries, but looks like the batt industry can identify the model and provide from that. Had a line on a propane JLG but this one will be easier to move at only 13,000 lbs.

 

[mogandave]

Had this same conversation with my engineer yesterday. Yeah, I could power the pumps with AC motors (not sure if they have appropriate flanges, though) as I have a 20 KVA genset that is trailered and I could convert to diesel but in reality I have too many projects and too much work to get done, so the silly price of batteries is going to have to do. Not decided yet if I will go AGM or flooded cell (quite a price difference). In automotive use, most AGMs have been a huge disappointment and cost, so I am tending to think flooded cell. Got the service and parts manuals, but they refer only to a part number for the batteries, but looks like the batt industry can identify the model and provide from that. Had a line on a propane JLG but this one will be easier to move at only 13,000 lbs.

I would not try to convert the motors and whatnot, I would just use a charger.

We got an old scissor lift from another plant. Batteries were shot, but it would run (albeit a little slow) with just the onboard charger plugged in. Ran it like that for about five years, might still be running it like that, no idea.

Do you have a DC welder?

 

[cannuck]

I would not try to convert the motors and whatnot, I would just use a charger.

We got an old scissor lift from another plant. Batteries were shot, but it would run (albeit a little slow) with just the onboard charger plugged in. Ran it like that for about five years, might still be running it like that, no idea.

Do you have a DC welder?

My DC welder far too large to drag around. Might end up putting this out for rent to my "day job" client, so will have to be fully reliable and functional battery power. It will be a good excuse to jump ahead of finishing shop and build a trailer to move it (design will later go into production). Might do rear load or RGN with 2 x 8k axles.

 

[uratool]

Shrink wrap like a boat? will keep the weather out like nothing else but won't solve condensation...

 

[cannuck]

Shrink wrap like a boat? will keep the weather out like nothing else but won't solve condensation...

I think the Weathershield will solve that. It is specifically meant for outdoor storage.

Cosmoline Weathershed - Industrial Grade Spray (#24-3170)

Industrial-Grade Cosmoline® in an aerosol can. Heavy-Duty, Long-Lasting Rust Preventative! Labeled "World's Best Rust Preventative" with 2+ Years of Protection. 24-3170

www.cosmolinedirect.com