Sears ethics

[anndel]

Well after reading this I went to Loggerhead's website and ordered the 6 in and 8 in Bionic Wrench from them for my emergency kit in my wife's car.

 

[Citation]

There was a memo ("Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires.") and there was a calculation. However the $49.5M "cost to society" of an estimated 180 burn deaths + 180 serious injures per year was less than the calculated $11/vehicle or $137M across all vehicle manufacturers (not just Ford) to fix the problem.

If Ford had been more corporately intelligent, they would have calculated potential liability, recoiled in shock, and then quickly moved to fix the problem, at least going forward. But their callous estimation that $11/vehicle was too much to even fix the problem in current production vehicles cost them dearly.

So you're kind of right. Tort liabilities were ignored in the calculation. The calculation was, what's 180 lives per year when you can save $11 per vehicle?

Yes, there definitely was a memo. The problem is many people think, based in part on how Mother Jones misrepresented the memo, that it was addressing something specific to Ford or liabilities at all and that Ford used the calculation to decide which safety features to include or exclude. Not at all. The memo was actually a response to a government proposal regarding new safety regulations. The Feds asked the car makers to estimate the benefit and cost to society if a new set of safety standards were implemented. The Fed's told Ford (and other car makers) to use the $200k per life saved/lost number. The Feds were reflecting the reality that adding safety features comes with a cost and we should attempt some balance between requiring additional safety feature (that cost us buyers real money) and the number of lives those features might save.

What we have to remember is the memo was prepared not for Ford's product designers and engineers (it was prepared several years after the Pinto was on the road). It was for federal regulators to help decide if a new safety regulation made sense. It was NEVER used to help Ford engineers decide if a safety feature should or shouldn't be included in the Pinto or any other car.

It speaks to the way myths and false claims that are easy to believe and make for clear story of good and evil that people still believe the Pinto memo was proof of an ethical laps at Ford.

 

[Citation]

Jeep is going thru the same thing with the Liberty models.. Their fix is to put a trailer hitch on the back.. but tests show, that makes it worse..the hitch just gets pushed into the tank..

I have one of the affected Jeeps. This is a bit of a gray area. The safety claim is that the vehicles are marginal in rear impacts. That may be true but marginal is hardly the same as death trap. You say tests show the factory hitch makes things worse. Where are those tests? Chrysler had to show test results to the NHTSA as part of their discussions. Some people think the NHTSA should order a recall while Chrysler is arguing that the added rear impact protection of a factory trailer hitch is enough to address the original concern (that something could get between the frame rails and puncture the tank). Well that means Chrysler had to do crash testing and show data.

That doesn't mean all the aftermarket hitches are OK. Part of the recall was being asked if we had an aftermarket hitch on the Jeep. Chrysler wants the aftermarket hitches off because some some of those actually do make things worse in a rear impact.

Anyway, overall this is at best a marginal risk that is made slightly less risky by the installation of an OEM hitch. But I'm sure there is some Audi unintended acceleration team trying to create a scoop!

 

[FullRaceMerc]

I hope Sears sells a billion of those wrenches.


Then loses the lawsuit.

 

[nieuport17]

Well after reading this I went to Loggerhead's website and ordered the 6 in and 8 in Bionic Wrench from them for my emergency kit in my wife's car.

Dude, that thing wont fit anything on a car.
Not even battery cable nut.
Its a holiday tool, and then sits in a drawer somewhere.

 

[zendriver]

These co's had better start caring about the North American worker, because exploited workers in China (many of them work 15 hour days 6 days a week) do not have any money to buy these products. They're destroying their customer bases.

Not really. China is learning from the best - the United States.

Collective action by Chinese workers, including strikes, has been successful in many cases and is bringing Chinese employers to the bargaining table As a result, China’s industrial workers are fashioning their own system of industrial relations, largely without the assistance of the existing law and labor relations institutions.

http://www.aflcio.org/Issues/Trade/China/Labor-Rights-in-China

IMO, they will eventually have their version of the "middle class", enjoy it for a decade or so, then find themselves priced out of the labor market, by places, like South Africa.

http://www.economist.com/news/middl...-are-take-africans-will-have-start-making-lot

 

[yamaha0343]

Well after reading this I went to Loggerhead's website and ordered the 6 in and 8 in Bionic Wrench from them for my emergency kit in my wife's car.

Don't take this the wrong way, but hopefully she has roadside assistance. Neither Sears' nor Loggerhead's version are good for much of anything, and I doubt either one fits anything on a car.

 

[zendriver]

Hmmm

He invents and interesting and unique product, but he goes against the rest of the current business world, insisting on having expensive domestic contract manufacturing, verses lower cost import.

He then gets a bit greedy and starts making a bunch of dumb agreements, with a huge Corporation, then acting surprised and hurt, when they eat his lunch.

Certainly an American success story.

The Bionic Wrench was greeted with enthusiasm at trade shows and in industrial design competitions, and the company survived the downturn in 2008. Mr. Brown resisted overtures from large chain stores that wanted to sell the tool under their proprietary brand, he said, and rejected the lure of cheaper manufacturing in China. “I was raised a different way,” he said

In exchange Mr. Brown agreed not to sell the wrench to Sears’s competitors, including Home Depot and Lowe’s.

But LoggerHead’s profit margin remained small, in part because it produced a television commercial and paid Sears to show it

http://acufoundation.conservative.org/2016/01/13/popular-wrench-fights-a-chinese-rival/

 

[dkroth]

Who is the OEM for Sears?

 

[Keel]

"But LoggerHead’s profit margin remained small, in part because it produced a television commercial and paid Sears to show it "

No. it remained small as the tool is junk,, might be good for putting your kids bike together x mas eve, but that is it.

 

[bwringer]

The Kevlar kits that Ford retrofitted into CVPIs resolved that issue handily, protecting the tank from trunk contents puncturing it, but any stopped car hit at that speed is going to suffer issues that may include a ruptured fuel tank or fuel line.

NHTSA's investigation cleared Ford, and the CV/CVPI exceeds safety requirements/standards for the years they were built.

There's nothing inherently unsafe about a Vic.

Not to derail the 6,765,892nd GJ "Piss on Sears" thread...

Those of a certain age might recall that the "fix" on the Pinto involved an 8" square of rubber mud flap material hung between the tank and the axle. I mean, like, wow. The whole thing was a bad joke that the lawyers turned into a moneymaker.

Of course, the rest of the car was a bad joke as well, which is a fact a lot of people seem to forget. Ford's engineers and execs should have been horsewhipped for that turd, whether or not it exploded.

As others have noted, that whole mess was actually a PR battle that Ford lost badly, not so much a legal battle.

From a 2017 perspective, cars in the '70s were death traps, and the Pinto was no worse than any other vehicle at the time. And, as pointed out earlier, it was a lot safer than the beloved VW Beetle. Remember, only a few years earlier, seat belts were considered a pinko plot to emasculate American freedom.

 

[WWheeler]

just to add to the off-topic discussion with some even more off-topicness, but when I was a kid we watched on the news where a VW beetle went off the road and into the potomac near DC which was partially frozen over and instead of sinking the car floated for over 1/2 hr until firefighters saved the woman inside. They lassoed her car and reeled it in for what must have been 50 ft or more until it was ashore. I don't even think she got wet. I remember growing up thinking it must have been one of the safest cars ever.

 

[mudflap]

I have one of the affected Jeeps. This is a bit of a gray area. The safety claim is that the vehicles are marginal in rear impacts. That may be true but marginal is hardly the same as death trap. You say tests show the factory hitch makes things worse. Where are those tests? Chrysler had to show test results to the NHTSA as part of their discussions. Some people think the NHTSA should order a recall while Chrysler is arguing that the added rear impact protection of a factory trailer hitch is enough to address the original concern (that something could get between the frame rails and puncture the tank). Well that means Chrysler had to do crash testing and show data.

That doesn't mean all the aftermarket hitches are OK. Part of the recall was being asked if we had an aftermarket hitch on the Jeep. Chrysler wants the aftermarket hitches off because some some of those actually do make things worse in a rear impact.

Anyway, overall this is at best a marginal risk that is made slightly less risky by the installation of an OEM hitch. But I'm sure there is some Audi unintended acceleration team trying to create a scoop!

http://www.jeepproblems.com/trends/rear-impact-fire/

We have a 2004 Liberty (wifes winter car) The CAS has studies that the hitch does nothing to improve "crash energy management" and actually makes it more likely the filler neck will be torn loose...

 

[Citation]

CAS is not what I would call an unbiased organization. They were one of the chearleaders behind the Pinto recalls as well as several other smear jobs. They are an advocay organization that is willing to bend/break the truth to get the outcomes they want.

Consider the Crown Vic attack job they did. From the link in my earlier post:

rawing on the exhaustive Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS) from police accident reports — as well as input from state highway patrols, plaintiff lawyers and their associates, consumers, Ford Motor, and its own field investigations — the ODI identified only 26 reports of high-energy "Post Rear End Collision Fires" in Panthers from September 1992 to August 2002. Of these, 22 were in police cars and the other four in civilian use, with 16 fatalities total from "thermal injuries."

Ralph Nader’s Center for Auto Safety (CAS) — which is closely allied with the plaintiff bar — challenged the ODI numbers, claiming 102 Panther fire fatalities in 83 crashes. But the CAS listing apparently included ALL fire-fatals they could find involving Panthers, not just police cars. Further, it included crashes in which there were fires NOT originating in the Ford vehicles, and crashes that were not rear impacts.

One example on the CAS list was a CVPI that T-boned a Daihatsu Charade at high speed, in which the latter caught fire — but its driver was killed from being ejected.

In another case, a CVPI was pursuing two suspects in a Firebird down the wrong way of a divided highway. The Firebird sideswiped an oncoming tractor-trailer, then was struck head-on by a Chevrolet Caprice police car coming the opposite direction. The Chevy rolled over and slid sideways into the CVPI’s front. The impacts of these horrendous collisions killed all four occupants; the Firebird and the Chevy caught fire, and the latter’s flames burned the FRONT of the CVPI but it neither caught fire internally nor was its fuel tank involved.

So in order to make the problem look bigger than it really was they included unrelated accidents in their stats. Jeep sells enough cars that we can assume something bad will happen to at least some of the occupants in a crash somewhere. What we often find is that the actual rate at which bad things happens isn't that high but these people decide they need to go on the offensive anyway.

 

[pstemari]

Really? Ford knew pintos would start on fire when rear ended. But figured it would be cheaper to pay out the lawsuits than fix the problem.

Exactly—and even before that Lee Iacocca was specifically told about the problem by the engineering staff, and ordered them to cut the weight to under 2,000lb regardless of the risk.

This is all thoroughly documented in internal Ford memos. No smear involved—just arrogant directives from disconnected management.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Skin]

"But LoggerHead’s profit margin remained small, in part because it produced a television commercial and paid Sears to show it "

No. it remained small as the tool is junk,, might be good for putting your kids bike together x mas eve, but that is it.

I'd rather use the stamped wrench the bike comes with. Tool belonged on QVC at best, not Sears shelves. Milton clearly reworked the old 1950s patent (and hasn't made anything else since) then tried to get rich quick off well meaning ignorant wives and men who don't know the difference between a bolt and a nut.

 

[Citation]

Exactly—and even before that Lee Iacocca was specifically told about the problem by the engineering staff, and ordered them to cut the weight to under 2,000lb regardless of the risk.

This is all thoroughly documented in internal Ford memos. No smear involved—just arrogant directives from disconnected management.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Actually, no it isn't. I've researched this subject pretty thoroughly. The only 'evidence' that Ford knew is based on grossly distorting evidence. Ford knew the rear impact performance was not as good as their larger cars but they felt it was typical for small cars of the time. They were right as historical data shows that even in rear impacts the car was average for the time. I posted a link that covers much of this.

 

[mudflap]

CAS is not what I would call an unbiased organization. They were one of the chearleaders behind the Pinto recalls as well as several other smear jobs. They are an advocay organization that is willing to bend/break the truth to get the outcomes they want.

Consider the Crown Vic attack job they did. From the link in my earlier post:


So in order to make the problem look bigger than it really was they included unrelated accidents in their stats. Jeep sells enough cars that we can assume something bad will happen to at least some of the occupants in a crash somewhere. What we often find is that the actual rate at which bad things happens isn't that high but these people decide they need to go on the offensive anyway.

I'm not too worried about it...have not had the recall hitch put on our Jeep..and in no hurry to do so.. I just wonder..on some of this stuff..the Vehicle comes off the drawing board, they build a pototype..?? You don't have to be an engineer to look at the back of the Liberty..see the gas tank hanging down below the bumper...and think.....thats probably not good...? If you are sitting in a jam on the highway..or waiting to make a left turn on a St Rt, etc..and get rear ended by somebody going 60mph.. i don't think this matters..the gas tank is the least of your problems..But in a slow, to moderate speed collision.. the thing shouldn't explode , and fry everybody in it.... The fix has not been tested..(see link in previous post).. Govt just gave them a "good will" pass.....And the independent tests that have been done...show the hitch not puncturing the tank..but pushing it forward enough to tear it from the filler neck..and dump fuel on the exhaust.. Chrysler is getting a pass on this one... I guess because there is no real fix..other than moving the gas tank in front of the rear axle..and thats not gonna happen..so how many effected vehicles are still on the road..? probably not alot..and getting less every day...so they are just riding it out....

 

[Todd.Brock]

Not surprised. I quit buying from Sears long ago.


Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

So did everyone else.

 

[anndel]

Dude, that thing wont fit anything on a car.
Not even battery cable nut.
Its a holiday tool, and then sits in a drawer somewhere.

I know, they're for my son's and his neighborhood friends' bicycles - The Goonies gang.

 

[zendriver]

"But LoggerHead’s profit margin remained small, in part because it produced a television commercial and paid Sears to show it "

No. it remained small as the tool is junk,, might be good for putting your kids bike together x mas eve, but that is it.

Have you ever used one? Just curious, unless - of course, quality can be determined by looking at a picture of one.

If you had read a bit more, you'd would have seen that initially, he sold 1.75 million of them.

Not too shabby for a mom and pop business, IMO.

 

[four.cycle]

^ unit sales of an item are no indicator of the item's worth or quality.

Pet Rocks are smooth stones from Mexico's Rosarito Beach. They were marketed like live pets, in custom cardboard boxes, complete with straw and breathing holes. The fad lasted about six months, ending after a short increase in sales during the Christmas season of December 1975. Although by February 1976 they were discounted due to lower sales, Dahl sold 1.5 million Pet Rocks for $4 each, and became a millionaire.

In the United States, "Sugar, Sugar" was classified by the RIAA as a gold record in August 1969, meaning it sold 1 million units (the gold threshold was later lowered to 500,000). The single also topped the 1969 Billboard Year-End chart. "Sugar, Sugar" is listed as the 78th top hit of all-time in Billboards all-time singles chart.

If you need more examples, let me know.

 

[ttpete]

Same logic was used on the Crown Vics.

The tank on the Panther platform was up immediately behind the rear seat and over the axle a long way forward of the bumper.


That said, there could be catastrophic crashes of just about any vehicle that could breach the fuel tank. The only reliable method would be to use fuel cells, something you'd be familiar with.

 

[Keel]

I can't really blame ford for the pinto tank design.. it's not all that different than the mustangs.. other than the pinto is smaller.. heck it was the trunk floor.in the mustang/cougar .
As far as the crown vic you have to really get smashed for it to get to the tank.. a good 2' of trunk and frame rails need to move at that point you got bigger problems..
.

 

[Keel]

^ unit sales of an item are no indicator of the item's worth or quality.

Sure it is.. if it sells it makes the vendor more money..

your thinking is after the fact.. but at time of sale it is..
Don't confuse over production to worth.
many things get reduced after the vendor made a killing on the product.. but over produced ,
Don't confuse retail price reduction to wholesale..
just because stores reduce an item doesn't mean the producer lost anything in it's profit margin..

Same with the reduced music bin.. It's already sold as much as it can at full retail.. and gets reduced.. and sold reduced at the wholesale level.. but the vendor is still making money as even at the "just get it out of our warehouse pricing " As the production of scale/volume made the unit cost much less..


I think this thread is comical.. "sear ethics" How many here have reversed engineered import knock offs they have bought instead of the original because it as cheaper..
No need to reply.. as it is about everyone..

 

[zendriver]

^ unit sales of an item are no indicator of the item's worth or quality.





If you need more examples, let me know.

?? Comparing a tool to a rock?

I was responding that selling 1.75 million tools, for $23 per unit, probably is somewhat profitable.

The worth is is the eye of the beholder and no one can legitimately attest to the quality, without actually using one, IMO.

Maybe it works great, even if it not not a "real wrench" and it does have a lifetime warranty.

The wrench is not my cup of tea, but I could never call it "junk", just by looking at a picture of it.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Funny thing is, in my Sears Hometown store they have the bionic wrench right next to the craftsman one... lol...

Probably been sitting there for ages though... You can still find a *few* USA socket sets there too... Hehe...

 

[four.cycle]

I'm not confusing anything with anything else, and I stand by my statement above.
Unit sales on any given item are not necessarily an indicator of the item's worth or quality.
How many more examples do you need? What part of that isn't clear?

Doesn't matter if it's tools or ladies shoes or ice cream cones - doesn't make one bit of difference.

"No one in this world, so far as I know — and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.” - H.L. Mencken

 

[Cruzan80]

?? Comparing a tool to a rock?

I was responding that selling 1.75 million tools, for $23 per unit, probably is somewhat profitable.

Not sure how you can make this assumption unless you know the cost of making and distributing it. For all we know it cost them $25 per to do all of this and he lost millions.

 

[DanielC99]

Don't take this the wrong way, but hopefully she has roadside assistance. Neither Sears' nor Loggerhead's version are good for much of anything, and I doubt either one fits anything on a car.

Maybe he doesn't like his wife?

We may see this on one of those 48 hours shows about someone snuffing out their spouse for another person? Instead of cutting the brake line they give them defective tools.

No offense meant. I'm just trying to be funny, and I've been told many times that my sense of humor just doesn't make sense...

This may be one of those times.

 

[zendriver]

Not sure how you can make this assumption unless you know the cost of making and distributing it. For all we know it cost them $25 per to do all of this and he lost millions.

Well, I guess we can all make assumptions.

No, you are probably right.

His tool was a horrible, money-losing flop. In fact, it was so bad, Sears decided to start selling them, prohibiting him from selling them in big box stores. Sales were to terrible, they decided to rip-off his design, start making them in China and start selling them, under their own Craftsman brand.

 

[Cruzan80]

No worse than you dismissing a tool vs a rock. Everyone is making assumptions based on their point of view. I never said it was a flop, but if CM moved it to China it was to increase profit margin. Nothing said that the original USA product was profitable. Never said sales were so terrible, just you can't infer profit from sales.

 

[kwschumm]

Well, I guess we can all make assumptions.

No, you are probably right.

His tool was a horrible, money-losing flop. In fact, it was so bad, Sears decided to start selling them, prohibiting him from selling them in big box stores. Sales were to terrible, they decided to rip-off his design, start making them in China and start selling them, under their own Craftsman brand.

Hey, maybe you've stumbled onto the reason for all of Sears troubles!!

 

[yamaha0343]

Maybe he doesn't like his wife?

We may see this on one of those 48 hours shows about someone snuffing out their spouse for another person? Instead of cutting the brake line they give them defective tools.

No offense meant. I'm just trying to be funny, and I've been told many times that my sense of humor just doesn't make sense...

This may be one of those times.

Well played sir!

 

[Keel]

Have you ever used one? Just curious, unless - of course, quality can be determined by looking at a picture of one.

If you had read a bit more, you'd would have seen that initially, he sold 1.75 million of them.

Not too shabby for a mom and pop business, IMO.

Many things sell in the millions that are pure junk.. most of whats on qvc lol
and hawked on t.v.
yes have used one.. got it as a gift.. it's good for light jobs, and not much else..

 

[3 Gun Shooter]

^ That was the reason that Ford kept building the Pinto with the gas tank directly in front of the rear bumper: their bean-counters crunched the numbers and figured it would be cheaper over the long run to pay legal fees and settlements than redesign the vehicle.

Nothing new under the sun.

That is pretty much how most cars were designed back in the 60's/early 70's. Think about all the pickups with gas tanks behind the seat..