Sears' response on tools made in China
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jaksm1
Active member
"Please understand that our decision to manufacture some of our Craftsman tools outside the United States was not made lightly." Anne B.
"Why is Sears/Craftsman throwing away decades of reputation by having most of your mechanics tools now made in China." Joe Smith
Notice: Joe Smith gets it correct by stating that "MOST" of Craftsman tools are made in China, whilest dear Anne B. states "SOME". I just find that ironic...
"Why is Sears/Craftsman throwing away decades of reputation by having most of your mechanics tools now made in China." Joe Smith
Notice: Joe Smith gets it correct by stating that "MOST" of Craftsman tools are made in China, whilest dear Anne B. states "SOME". I just find that ironic...
That's even further from irony than the Alanis Morisette song. I'm going to petition that the word "irony" be removed from the English language, because everyone thinks they know what it means, but don't.
Ah, so it better supported your personal opinion despite obscruing the real cause of the trend.
Chuck122
Well-known member
I don't usually take part in COO debates but here is my take on it:
The truth is that craftsman users had it super good for years. To be able to buy quality tools at a store that also sells appliances, clothing and everything in between is exceptional. At some point, Sears realized that the bulk of their tool buyers were just DIYers. And as making tools in the USA became more expensive they also realized that if they could not offer tools at a price point that competes with Home Depot, lowes etc, they would lose most of their business. Their new tools are very serviceable for most DIYers and to most user, there is no functional difference between current and old production. So the extra money spent for a us product would be a strike against sears.
The truth is that craftsman users had it super good for years. To be able to buy quality tools at a store that also sells appliances, clothing and everything in between is exceptional. At some point, Sears realized that the bulk of their tool buyers were just DIYers. And as making tools in the USA became more expensive they also realized that if they could not offer tools at a price point that competes with Home Depot, lowes etc, they would lose most of their business. Their new tools are very serviceable for most DIYers and to most user, there is no functional difference between current and old production. So the extra money spent for a us product would be a strike against sears.
raiderhillbilly
Well-known member
If I were to try to save the Craftsman brand, I would save money by offering refurbished or used tools as warranty replacements. I would give discounts on new tools for traded in used tools that were needed for warranty. Most importantly, I would make sure that Craftsman Professional/Industrial tools were made in the USA by Snapon. They would cost alot, but they would be worth it. I might even have the US flag stamped on them.
3xpendable
Well-known member
This^^it's the same for me. I lose the battle most of the time and speak up. The old timers look in disbelief and put the stuff back and leave
NorthCountry
Banned
wafrederick
Well-known member
Plus China has no quality control at all.Look how much stuff is coming back here from China all because of no quality contol in China which the product is made poorly.
dellwas
Banned
Pretty wide brush you're using to paint there fella. I have chinese made stuff that is a helluva lot better than american made ****...
Its not really China that determines the quality of the product that comes out, but what the company pays for. Just look at Apple products. They are all made in China and my iPhone/macbook are leaps and bounds better quality than any other phone/laptop I have ever had. They are capable of producing quality products, but most companies just want cheapest possible.
Wakefield
Well-known member
If I were Sears I would probably position Craftsman as a low price homeowner/box store brand (they have just about done that now) but try to become a full dealer with a complete selection of brand tools of a brand such as Proto or Wright. Or perhaps S*K. With at least a 5 year contract guaranteeing no excessive pressure on the brand suppler to reduce costs below the starting level. I think Sears has put pressure of that sort on its suppliers for years but perhaps has gotten worse? Perhaps all of the big box stores do that but at one time Sears was more than just one of the big box stores.
"sears has everything"!
Anyone remember when Craftsman engines were made by Tecumseh but then Sears seems to have began to put Craftsman label on some Briggs engines? I think before that some Briggs engines came on Sears products but were labeled as Briggs and not Craftsman.
"sears has everything"!
Anyone remember when Craftsman engines were made by Tecumseh but then Sears seems to have began to put Craftsman label on some Briggs engines? I think before that some Briggs engines came on Sears products but were labeled as Briggs and not Craftsman.
d.mcfarland
Well-known member
^^ Good point my friend. I think they are trying to bring in more brands with the most recent being Dewalt (correct me if I'm wrong here), hand tools I'm talking about here.
As others have stated, the current mentality in the US is "get what I want for the lowest price." This is what has kept Wal-Mart in business for years. We have, unfortunately, gotten into the "throw-away" mindset; use it, if it breaks, toss it and get another one. Tools, cars, clothes, spouses, it doesn't matter.
I part-time in a small, local hardware store. We frequently get people coming in and wanting the cheepest item for whatever they are doing. When I try to tell them that the better one will last longer and stand up better, they often say, "I don't care, I just want the cheepest one so I can get it done." It's like the ones that come in looking for a bolt to put the springs back on their truck and they get the grade 8 bolt but the grade 2 nut and washers, because they are cheeper. (Yes, they have, and won't listen to reason.)
From the corporate side, they look mostly at cost. I used to work at a arts/crafts and recreation mail-order company in town. They did away with their in-house production department and have about 98% of their kits made in China. Now, the company owners own outright or have an interest in most of the Chinese companies that they deal with, so they have some say in the quality. However, if the difference between making an item one way and having "alright" quality and making it a little better is even $0.01, they are going to go with the cheeper way each time. While one cent doesn't seem like that much, multiply that times 10, 20, 100 thousand units. Now we are talking a difference.
The piece that will make the biggest difference is the consumer. When they demand quality, at a reasonable price and made in the USA, then the companies will listen and make changes. Until then, the lowest price will always win.
I part-time in a small, local hardware store. We frequently get people coming in and wanting the cheepest item for whatever they are doing. When I try to tell them that the better one will last longer and stand up better, they often say, "I don't care, I just want the cheepest one so I can get it done." It's like the ones that come in looking for a bolt to put the springs back on their truck and they get the grade 8 bolt but the grade 2 nut and washers, because they are cheeper. (Yes, they have, and won't listen to reason.)
From the corporate side, they look mostly at cost. I used to work at a arts/crafts and recreation mail-order company in town. They did away with their in-house production department and have about 98% of their kits made in China. Now, the company owners own outright or have an interest in most of the Chinese companies that they deal with, so they have some say in the quality. However, if the difference between making an item one way and having "alright" quality and making it a little better is even $0.01, they are going to go with the cheeper way each time. While one cent doesn't seem like that much, multiply that times 10, 20, 100 thousand units. Now we are talking a difference.
The piece that will make the biggest difference is the consumer. When they demand quality, at a reasonable price and made in the USA, then the companies will listen and make changes. Until then, the lowest price will always win.
kythri
Well-known member
If you've been paying attention to the media, it seems that we might be getting to that tipping point where the consumer is starting to demand US-made products.
I think there's definitely a ways to go, and it will likely be a few more years until there's any major change, but even Walmart is pushing a pro-US-manufactured initiative these days.
I think there's definitely a ways to go, and it will likely be a few more years until there's any major change, but even Walmart is pushing a pro-US-manufactured initiative these days.
Flybye
Well-known member
But where does this "throw-away" mentality come from? I've been taught to always take care of everything I own, but throw-away is also about common sense. Why would I waste money on something that has a higher chance of breakage causing me to loose time and money on a replacement and money on gas going back to the store to get said replacement?
There are a lot of things I could care less if it has less quality. I mean how badly can you mess up manufacturing a coffee mug in China? But something that has to withstand pressures and weight like a tool, come on.
There are a lot of things I could care less if it has less quality. I mean how badly can you mess up manufacturing a coffee mug in China? But something that has to withstand pressures and weight like a tool, come on.
I'm sure Snap On will jump at the chance to compete against itself and build brand loyalty for a brand that would still have some tools that they don't make...
They have exactly as much quality control as the company contracting them demands. China makes fighter jets and nuclear missiles, but people think the country as a whole is literally incapable of producing a decent hammer. It's amazing.
I blame grown men who stand on the side of the road waiting for someone to change their tire for them because they can't figure out how to jack the car up. Those are the guys who want a four dollar ratchet.
Flybye
Well-known member
Can't figure it out or are too lazy to read the instructions clearly provided?
raiderhillbilly
Well-known member
Flybye
Well-known member
Fast forward 50-70 years....who is going to remember from a new generation Craftsman used to make quality tools?
Brownsfan
Well-known member
I have been buying some of the USA made sets. I already have a lot of craftsman USA sockets. When the add on modules went on sale for 50% off I bought all 3 socket modules. Now I have pretty much every socket with a back up. I also bought a bunch of the pro screwdrivers, pics and pry bars. Also bought the regular pry bars. Say what you want about craftsman USA sockets chrome finish. They were some damn nice USA made sockets for the money. I side by side compared a USA craftsman, Armstrong and Masterforce(menards) and they were almost exactly the same. If I need anymore sockets I will be buying Masterforce. My first tool purchases were craftsman. I was 18, got a job where I needed tools. I went straight to sears opened up a credit card and bought all I could get within the $500 limit. I am now 35 and still have many of those tools. I still have a few things I want to buy an hope to do so soon before the USA stock is gone. It's an end of an era.
lilscorpion
Well-known member
...and who says the new generation will care about tools?
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montanafordman
Well-known member
I think there is something to this. I'm 33 and a lot of my peers and guys younger than me either can't, or don't fix anything on their own. If they actually decide to tackle something on their own rather than call someone they want the cheapest tool possible just to get that particular job done. I think we're so plugged into electronic media and entertaining ourselves that DIY hobbies and even maintaining our houses, yards, and possessions have dropped significantly among the masses. Adding to this is the fact there are enough disposable products, appliances, cars, etc. that people don't see the value in repairing things when they can buy either a new or used substitute for less than what they value their TVvideogameFacebooktwittercoffee time that would be compromised by learning or fixing things. Even low income citizens get enough assistance where there is no need to fix or jerry-rig something essential like a car, appliance, or the like out of necessity like people used to when there are new cheap replacements available or an abundance of people casually tossing out and selling their goods in order to upgrade to the next new thing.
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ssbtech
Well-known member
I don't use any of my tools for professional work, I'm just a DIY/Hobbyist.
If the price is right, I prefer to buy USA made tools (or Canadian, I live in Canada). But for most of my light-duty work it doesn't really matter where my stuff comes from.
That being said, if there are two products side-by-side that perform the same function, and the US made one is 25% more expensive than the imported tool, I'd want to know why.
First of all, Chinese metallurgy is probably not as durable, but I still want to know what else makes it inferior. I do know that with the right QC is in place, a Chinese made product can be just as durable as a US made one, but if Sears is simply farming out production to a manufacturer that builds everything for everyone then I'd be a little skeptical of the quality.
At the end of the day, educate me as a consumer. If I'm looking at the two products and the US made one comes with a lifetime warranty and the Chinese one doesn't, that helps me to believe the US tool's quality is superior. Rate it light-duty/heavy-duty or give me some sort of explanation as to why the US model is better.
Perhaps keep the "Professional" series of tools US made so the consumer can make the choice.
If the price is right, I prefer to buy USA made tools (or Canadian, I live in Canada). But for most of my light-duty work it doesn't really matter where my stuff comes from.
That being said, if there are two products side-by-side that perform the same function, and the US made one is 25% more expensive than the imported tool, I'd want to know why.
First of all, Chinese metallurgy is probably not as durable, but I still want to know what else makes it inferior. I do know that with the right QC is in place, a Chinese made product can be just as durable as a US made one, but if Sears is simply farming out production to a manufacturer that builds everything for everyone then I'd be a little skeptical of the quality.
At the end of the day, educate me as a consumer. If I'm looking at the two products and the US made one comes with a lifetime warranty and the Chinese one doesn't, that helps me to believe the US tool's quality is superior. Rate it light-duty/heavy-duty or give me some sort of explanation as to why the US model is better.
Perhaps keep the "Professional" series of tools US made so the consumer can make the choice.
Brownsfan
Well-known member
Don't even get me started on the grown men who can't or won't fix ****. I have a couple friends who will call me for "help" or just call someone if I'm not around. I have a buddy that has a older Harley that needs work regularly. But owns hardly any tools. It's always at my house for me to "help" him fix it. I do have another friend that's a journeyman electrician and he likes to fix everything himself. He is the one I call when I need any help.
paul2112
Well-known member
We'll since sears is looking more and more like it's going to close shop,,no wonder they farmed out there tools,,,,,we could only hope the old maker of there tools resumes once they fold,,,,,,die sears,,,,DIE,,,lol
mrjaw14
Well-known member
I fill a similar role. It's time to de-pussify american men as far as I'm concerned
lilscorpion
Well-known member
A co-worker (our pay is comparable) just remodeled his kitchen using contractors for $35k. I did mine myself and spent around $12k. I redid the floors and even sub'd it out. He didn't do the floors. Same counter tops in each and similar quality cabinets with all upgraded gizmos. I actually have a math degree but you don't need one to figure out what a DIYer's skills can be worth.
No matter how much you make, how much do you like $23k? That's a car for my kid or a really nice digital Snap On torque wrench!
Brownsfan
Well-known member
23k is my 84" snap on epiq with a hutch and lockers. Then have some left for the digital torque wrench. I do as much stuff I can myself and if I can't I try to find a friend who can help. If all else fails I will call a pro. The one thing I don't like to do myself is plumbing.
SlappyWhite
Well-known member
You have to be honest with yourself as to why you buy USA, or whatever coo you choose.
If you are buying due to a perceived quality, then continue to buy up the last USA made that you can find on the shelves.
If it about manufacturing jobs, then buying it up is the opposite of what you should be doing. Those jobs are gone to China. Sears has no idea when a tool is sold where that one was made. They do know that they need to make another one to replace it and that one will be the new China one. The accountants will see these sale numbers as proof the consumer does not care about coo, because they are still moving tools.
If you are buying due to a perceived quality, then continue to buy up the last USA made that you can find on the shelves.
If it about manufacturing jobs, then buying it up is the opposite of what you should be doing. Those jobs are gone to China. Sears has no idea when a tool is sold where that one was made. They do know that they need to make another one to replace it and that one will be the new China one. The accountants will see these sale numbers as proof the consumer does not care about coo, because they are still moving tools.
Brownsfan
Well-known member
It's a quality thing for me. Once it's all gone I'm done with sears. Except for maybe power tools. Hand tools will be bought off the snap on truck or my local industrial supply place. They sell wright,Williams, full channellock line up bahco and Wiha. I do not buy tools online much if at all. I think I bought 1 or 2 things from eBay(both SK). I travel a lot for work and found a couple really good tool stores. Obrien tools in Cincinatti and performance tool in Waterford MI. I am going to cincy this week and will be stopping by Obrien tools for some SK goodness.
A co-worker (our pay is comparable) just remodeled his kitchen using contractors for $35k. I did mine myself and spent around $12k. I redid the floors and even sub'd it out. He didn't do the floors. Same counter tops in each and similar quality cabinets with all upgraded gizmos. I actually have a math degree but you don't need one to figure out what a DIYer's skills can be worth.
No matter how much you make, how much do you like $23k? That's a car for my kid or a really nice digital Snap On torque wrench!
Don't buy your kid any kind of decent car.
Find him something for a few hundred that needs new heads. Teach him how to fix it. Make a member of the new generation that isn't a big sissy.
I don't buy craftsman anymore due to its quality and outsourcing. I do not really blame sears for it anymore. I blame our consumers. We've become a Walmart society. We will research online for hours to save $5. Instead we should be spending as locally as possible and in turn reinvesting in our country. But we don't. We all think its so great to have cheap **** from Walmart. To save a few bucks we've sold out our economy, ourselves, and our children. The spending power of the average American now is weak enough that we require this cheap ****. Only way to reverse the tide is by force of policy.
And if I hear about regulations again I'll scream. Yes let's let everyone do what they want. Poison dog food, fake baby formula, and comtinated drinking water for everyone is what I say!...
And if I hear about regulations again I'll scream. Yes let's let everyone do what they want. Poison dog food, fake baby formula, and comtinated drinking water for everyone is what I say!...
lilscorpion
Well-known member
Back when soldering was required a simple fix could be difficult if you didn't know how to. With push on fittings (like shark/gator bite), its easier than ever.
I'm 35 and I'm extremely self sufficient in many things not just fixing things. If I think or know I can do it myself I am going to do it. I haven't even been to a barber shop in close to 20 years because I cut my own hair. I do all my own mechanic work and I'm also a contractor by profession. I rent an apartment and if any problems come up I just fix it myself I never call the landlord unless it's serious.
If we had a serious economic collapse or weather related catastrophe most people these days would be crying like babies.
lilscorpion
Well-known member
Don't buy your kid any kind of decent car.
Find him something for a few hundred that needs new heads. Teach him how to fix it. Make a member of the new generation that isn't a big sissy.
I have a few years to worry about that. It's unlikely he'll get anything fancy. I still have a '74 LWB Chevy because I know everything about it and can do all the work myself. I have two major character flaws: (1) I hate paying and (2) I don't trust others to do quality work. Old truck it is.
I still buy new Craftsman tools made by Western Forge in Colorado Springs Colorado and impact socket sets stamped GK made in Garland Texas. I just wish they would clearly mark the front of the packaging if Made in U.S.A. and also state COO on the website.
lilscorpion
Well-known member
It's been that long since I've had a full head of hair to cut.
Flybye
Well-known member
I try to fix things myself for various reasons; to save money and because I am curious to how things work!
And sometimes you just HAVE to know how things work. My bathroom valve popped in the middle of the night. 35yr old house. If I didn't know where the water main valve was, can you imagine the immense pool I would have had in the house?
My gf's Equinox was overheating. It ended up being loose radiator fan connectors which I didn't even need to spend money on to replace. I recrimped them and away they went. I can't even begin to think how much money I would have wasted if I was a civilian. Towing costs + mechanic + time for him to even look at the car + him probably charging $200-$500 to tell me I need new fans lol.
And sometimes you just HAVE to know how things work. My bathroom valve popped in the middle of the night. 35yr old house. If I didn't know where the water main valve was, can you imagine the immense pool I would have had in the house?
My gf's Equinox was overheating. It ended up being loose radiator fan connectors which I didn't even need to spend money on to replace. I recrimped them and away they went. I can't even begin to think how much money I would have wasted if I was a civilian. Towing costs + mechanic + time for him to even look at the car + him probably charging $200-$500 to tell me I need new fans lol.