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Second opinion on garage contract needed

TeamTruett

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Attached is the contract for a detached garage built using "SIP"s (Structurally insulated panels)

I am about to enter into a contract with "Techbuilt" of Ohio to build a 30x36 detached garage at my home in New York. Once contract is signed and deposit paid they will have drawings ready in two weeks. I was hoping to get some feedback on the contract, it's a short read, only 3 pages. Thanks!:beer:
 

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Xtremetalworks2

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Looks like a fair contract to me ! Though I am not a lawyer, looks similar to contracts we have done as subcontractors for ironwork. Good luck and enjoy your new garage !
 

kd3pc

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I did not see anything in there about chases for electrical...without a wiring/plumbing plan with exact locations....everything will have to be surface mounted either inside or outside....there is no way to run the wiring/plumbing without the chases/gaps provided at the time the SIPS are built.

Crane time usually has to be scheduled days ahead, who pays if the weather craps, delays cause late time/over time and access for the crane to set things and who repairs/pays to redo landscape or driveway.

I hope your AHJ, accepts SIPS, and if they do, there should be some markings on the SIPS that identified their adherence to architect's design, I see that the should have a NY stamp, make sure they do. In Virginia, although the SIPS were "approved" by the state, the county we lived in would not approve them - this we found out after the architect did the complete drawings and we applied for building permits....up til then the AHJ was gung ho.

Best of luck, perhaps someone will respond who is more local, but I would get a lot more defined and itemized than what this contract has. Performance, time frame, who does what and by when, who pays for the crane, all beg the old contractor's answer:
if it ain't in the contract, it doesn't exist.
 

banjo2733

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No mention of building size or features.

I would not make initial down payment until the plans were approved by the local Building Dept.

No mention of any provisions for doors, windows, wiring or plumbing.

No estimated delivery date.

No mention of siding spec's.

No mention of site prep requirements or whom is responsible for same, are you serving as the General Contractor?

Lots more, but these things need to be thought out before signing the contract.
 

tomroblee

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It looks like a good contract for the company selling you materials. It's hard to determine how good it is for you.


The contract states that the building will be built according to the drawings. If there are drawings at this point of time, they should be incorporated into the contract.

The specifications show that the materials will be shipped to the job site. However, the "boilerplate" language states that you take possession of the materials once they are delivered to the shipper. I would think that this conflicting language in the contract should be eliminated.

The contract states that they will furnish materials and labor to install the furnished material. Are you comfortable that you will be responsible for everything else (site work, foundation, slab, permits, equipment needed to unload the material, equipment needed to erect the building, etc??)

I'm not familiar with the product they are selling you. I looked at the company's website. It specified that 1/2 plywood or osb should be used for roof decking. The contract specifies 7/16 osb.

The only timing mentioned is when you need to make payments. There is no mention of when they need to perform---and you don't have any right to cancel without their blessing.

Since they are located in Ohio and you are located in NY, I would assume that you would have to resolve any potential problems in an Ohio court. Are you comfortable with this?
 

Shadowdog500

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I don't know if any company going to give you plans without you paying the first amount.

When I had my Morton building built I had to pay $5k up front before they even started the design. This keeps the tire kickers from wasting their time. The only way I could get any if that $5k back was if the building department wouldn't allow me to build. If that happened Morton would only keep around $600 for the architect fee and I would get the rest back.

Chris
 
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TeamTruett

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Here is the site
http://www.techbuilt.com/

Thank you for all the feedback. I thought the contract was a little thin on description. I think something more itemized is order since there is a big downpayment attached to it. I think 50% down just to start the process is a lot to ask. They have contractors in New York to do the work. I am acting as GC and have to have the site excavated/prepped and concrete work done locally as well as getting building permit. The SIPs have chases for electric. I told them what I wanted in terms of building size, door/window openings, roof pitch, siding etc. I sent them plans for a "pole built" garage that I had been considering to base the quote on. There are no drawings at the moment which I don't like because I do not even have a visual of what it would look like. I'm not expecting a full work up of images and detailed specs but a picture is worth a 1000 words. Feel like I'm buying "site unseen".
 

ltcmontana

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No plans, no payment. I could see paying them $500/$750 to draw up the plans first. Give them plan money up front and ask them to apply the payment to your down payment if you sign the contract. That way, if you choose another route, they have been paid for their work. That is a very one sided contract. I would not sign it until you were completely satisfied with the design. Then make the down payment.
 
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CNGsaves

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^ ^ This. Put EVERYTHING in WRITING that is responsibility of each party. Put in deadlines, penalties, details, and withhold 10% retainer until you've signed off that everything completed as contracted.

+1 to NOT give them any money until you get some sort of drawing that you agree is what you're wanting. They may be planning an Edsel for you, and you're thinking a '70 Cuda !!!! :D
 

bczygan

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Hold 10% for one year of warranty work.

Define EVERYTHING.
Size, quantity, specification color finish etc.
Sales tax included?
Permits and fees included?
Anything in an "Allowance"? They are usually too small.
Go down the CSI index and make sure every trade is defined.
 

HotrodHR

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Why not use a vendor located in your state (or nearby)? Seems to me you would probably avoid some of the local issues...
 

67carl

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The part that raises a red flag to me is the section that essentially says you agree that you can't take them to court if something goes wrong. You have to agree to binding arbitration and only in the county of Ohio in which the company resides. So if they ef something up you can't go to court, you have to go to arbitration in Ohio:

"The parties agree that both mediation and arbitration proceedings shall take place in Lake County, Ohio, and shall be governed by the laws of the State of Ohio."


.
 
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bazzateer

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This bit confuses me:

Payment Plan
50% deposit upon signing contract……………………………………………….…$ 13,050.00
25% of balance due upon receipt of supplied material………………………….…$ 6,525.00
25% of balance due upon install of ThermoTech21 supplied material…………...$ 3,262.50
Balance due upon completion of contracted items………………………………….$ 3,262.50

Surely the last two amounts are both 12.5% of the total ???

I know it's obvious what they mean, but I would insist it is re-written to make it clear. This is in addition to all the other points raised above.
 

Garage Coffee Roaster

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Great contract.... for them. It leaves you no protection at all.
In addition has already been said.
Big issues off the top of my head are
becoming responsible for materials upon delivery (I would make them be on-site to accept delivery)

-no warranty time listed.
-confidentially and no compete clause. You should not give up your right to talk about what you see, hear and observe about your building. You also should not give up the right to go into business.

-Any promotional materials they use from your building should be compensated for.

I have never seen a more one sided contract before! It would make me question everything else about them



Sent from my LG-LS720 using Tapatalk
 
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TeamTruett

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This is way the is a great site, thanks for all the second opinions and advice! :)
I'll be writing a letter to them today highlighting these red flags. Ill post the results.
 

TXDego

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Truett, you can do whatever you want, and I only wish you the best, but let me share some wisdom with you. I am a General Contractor and have seen just about everything. Before people jump in and say its different in every state, I have worked in 42 of the 50 states, and in 32 countries.

Payment Plan
50% deposit upon signing contract……………………………………………….…$ 13,050.00
25% of balance due upon receipt of supplied material………………………….…$ 6,525.00
25% of balance due upon install of ThermoTech21 supplied material…………...$ 3,262.50
Balance due upon completion of contracted items………………………………….$ 3,262.50


I know some will agruee this is normal, but it is not. One should fully expect to pay for 100% of the building MATERIALS upon delivery, that is normal. We typically pay nothing upon signing a contract, and then pay 10% upon approval of drawings. We usually have to have a check waiting to give to the driver when the building shows up on site for the balance of the building, just materials now, no labor.

With regards to labor, we do 30%, 30%, 30%, and final 10% 45-60 days upon completion. Mainly to make sure the erector has paid all their subs(crane or all terain forklift).

The key with any contract is to try to decipher what material costs, what labor costs, and what is in for Profit & Overhead. You never what to over pay the Labor, Profit & Overhead part. These amounts apear front loaded to me in the Material(building) portion of the quote.

Ask yourself this question, if the contractor dissappeared, would $6400 be enough money to fully install/erect your building if all the materials were sitting in a huge pile in your driveway. My guess is no.

Most every project boils down to this: 50%-60% is materials, 30%-40% labor, 15%-25% profit & overhead. In your case, assuming 60% for materials that is $15,600 however, your contractor is looking for $19,600. This tells me all of his profit he is trying to capture on the front end, in your case $4000. This practice is used/done a lot, everyone tries to front load their profit, this is business 101 in the construction world. This is where you should work your contractor.

The labor amount looks spot on to me. So with 100% of your contractors profit & overhead build into the building delivery, you will have zero leverage working with your contractor when he is on site. He could walk any day during the construction process and he is out zero money because he captured all his juice up front.

The Non-Compete portion, I would strongly uge you to strike out. Understanding that you are not going to get into the business, it has no place in any contract with a consumer.

The Applicable Law section, I would also stike out, however don't kill yourself over it. It is completly unenforceable, and is not legal or biding in any way. And yes, I have been to court more times than I can count over this exact clause, and it always gets dismissed at pre-trial hearings because it is not legal, regardless if it is agreed to or not.

Good luck!
 

tomroblee

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A written contract should put the "meeting of the minds" into words.

I would suspect that you don't yet have a "meeting of the minds".

The Techbuilt Construction LLC contract makes it appear that Techbuilt Construction LLC is only a dealer for Thermo Tech21 products. Their "boilerplate" language makes it appear that their primary interest is selling materials. They don't seem to offer any warranty beyond that provided by the manufacturer of the panels---whoever that is. (The website you linked provided contact information for Techbuilt, Inc. The Ohio Secretary of State website shows no company by that name in Ohio. It does list a Techbuilt Mfg Inc.)

You appear to be interested in buying a (partially completed) building. This involves a whole lot more than (eventually) getting the materials that are needed. Do you really want to deal with all the problems that might occur if one or more of the panels has manufacturing defects, is damaged in shipment, or is damaged during the erection process? It might takes weeks or months for replacement panels to be delivered to the work site--regardless of who would pay for them.

I'm guessing that there is some middle ground with regard to the plans. I can only guess that the drawings and plans will be created by the manufacturer of the panels----not by the dealer that is selling them. I would think that you would want the right to approve the plans before the manufacture of the panels is started.

The 50% upfront payment seems to be a point of contention. It would seem out of line for "conventional" construction. I'm assuming that SIP's are custom made to order, so some substantial deposit would be warranted.

The proposed contract didn't indicate that the construction crew would be licensed, bonded, or insured. This would worry me.

The proposed contract listed labor charges for the installation of "provided" siding---yet no siding was listed as part of materials. In most construction that I see, siding is installed after doors and windows have been installed.

Good luck with your negotiations---but consider the possibility that an out-of-state material supplier may not be the best choice if you really want a "turn-key" job.
 
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TeamTruett

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Update!

Hello all! I took all the feedback from you guys (thank you) and put it into a letter to the company owner who then sent me a revised, slightly more detailed contract (see attached PDF, PLEASE give me your 2 cents again) I am thinking of having the engineered/stamped drawings done first as suggested by the feedback, the cost for that is $2500 and is deducted from the total.)
Here is my letter:

Hello Bill,
I have looked over the contract and have had it looked over by my lawyer. Here are my concerns:

* The proposed contract didn't indicate that the construction crew would be licensed, bonded, insured or who they are.

* In regards to the Non-Compete and confidentially portion, I am not going to get into the business, so it has no place in this contract as I am just a homeowner consumer.

* No warranty time listed?

* The contract states that the building will be built according to the drawings. I have no visual as to what it would look like so I cannot buy “sight unseen”. I am also interested to know what the size of the attic would be. I’m not expecting engineered stamped building plans at this point but a building elevation drawing would say a lot. You could be thinking of building me a ’58 Edsel and I’m thinking ’67 Corvette.

* The specifications show that the materials will be shipped to the job site. However, the "boilerplate" language states that I take possession of the materials once they are delivered to the shipper. I would think that this is conflicting language in the contract should be eliminated. Is someone going to be there to unload the material when it arrives?

* The clause on arbitration in the contract is unenforceable because no court would ever say Ohio law would trump New York law when the project is located in New York.

I need a more itemized contract so I know what to expect as well as what is expected of me. That way we have a “meeting-of-the-minds”.

Thanks,
Chris
 

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volleyball

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How many companies did you get quotes from? Have you defined scope of work?
Why not get plans drawn up on your own, get them approved, and then get quotes to supply material,shipping and labor to give you an erected shell?
There are lots of companies in NY, way closer for shipping such a bulky item.
What are the rough specs for your project? Is it a storage garage, a working garage or mancave?
 

Big Bad Dad

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I would consult your local Building Official about what they offer, and see if it conforms to your local codes for both footing requirements as well as roofing snow load, etc. before paying somebody out of state several hundred bucks for plans. The company should be able to give you that info for free first! I did a stint for a few years as a Building Inspector, and there is a LOT of stuff advertised for sale that will not meet code requirements for certain localities.
 

bczygan

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Burn it.

I would never sign that.

They may as well have said Total contract $100,000.00

"Sign here"

You are in over your head. You need a lawyer with construction contract experience on active jobs, to look over anything before you sign.
 
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TeamTruett

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Hi thank for the replies, its a garage/work shop. 30x36x12 side wall with attic. I got several quotes with as many from NY as I could get. One company wanted $22,000 just for the labor! Another problem has been finding a supplier that builds with SIPs here in NY. Many suppliers of SIPs but few that both supply and build. The plans need a NY stamp and meet my building codes. I was told that they would by the owner of techbuilt.
 
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TeamTruett

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Burn it.

I would never sign that.

They may as well have said Total contract $100,000.00

"Sign here"

You are in over your head. You need a lawyer with construction contract experience on active jobs, to look over anything before you sign.

I may very well be over my head and should burn it, are you referring to "slightly revised" contract they sent me (post #20 of this thread?)
 

kd3pc

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still no breakdown....and having done some SIPS construction.. I don't see a charge for a "crane" and in my case a day of crane time was almost the "labor" alone in this.

My previous comment still stands, nothing in the contract about chases for elec/plumbing/etc. Nothing about who "dries" it in and by whom. NOthing about stamps on the SIPS that AHJ will accept....drawings?

Perhaps it is possible to set walls and then the roof with out a crane? I just have not been willing to sacrifice safety to do so.

FOB...you own it when it loads at the "factory"....are you prepared to handle/offload/store etc a 53' trailer of panels and again how would you get them unloaded and safely on the pour? Insurance?

Walk or find a conventional 2x construction GC....

WAY too many missing details to sign this .....
 
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TeamTruett

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still no breakdown....and having done some SIPS construction.. I don't see a charge for a "crane" and in my case a day of crane time was almost the "labor" alone in this.

My previous comment still stands, nothing in the contract about chases for elec/plumbing/etc. Nothing about who "dries" it in and by whom. NOthing about stamps on the SIPS that AHJ will accept....drawings?

Perhaps it is possible to set walls and then the roof with out a crane? I just have not been willing to sacrifice safety to do so.

FOB...you own it when it loads at the "factory"....are you prepared to handle/offload/store etc a 53' trailer of panels and again how would you get them unloaded and safely on the pour? Insurance?

Walk or find a conventional 2x construction GC....

WAY too many missing details to sign this .....

Thanks I agree with you and appreciate your feedback. I sent him a message in regards to the FOB: unloading/storing when it arrives. Plus if they use a crane and no mention of chases.
 

rburke65

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I had my shop put up in Ohio 2 years ago by a local lumber yard. When I signed the contract, I had to cough up ALL the money for ALL the material before the would even begin to load the truck. 25% upon the rough inspection and 25% on the final. I had an issue with the garage door portion of the build and I talked to the owner before I paid the last 25% about the issue and agreed to hold back $1K. All ended well.
 

danieldd

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I can offer nothing here in the way of wisdom as it seems there are some mighty knowledgeable folks here that have already given you the benefit of their expertise. What I can comment on is this:

Starting this thread and asking for help with the contract is the smartest thing you could have done for yourself and your family! Too often I read here where people have gotten screwed by their GC/contracting company/etc AFTER the papers have been signed and the work started. You, my friend had the wisdom to ask for the collective expertise of this board to help you BEFORE you even got started.

Very wise.

And a big thanks goes out to all those who have given insightful and helpful advice to you.

:beer:

I'm impressed…..
 

Will S.

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OK, TeamTruett, I just looked at the contract attached to your original post, and without going into anything else, let me say that I absolutely would NOT signa any contract to have a structure built, that had a non-compete in it. I am not a builder, and I would guess that you are not either, but don't sigm anything that even remotely resembles that thing.

Over the course of the last 40 years, I have sold businesses, and have signed N/C's when I did. I have had businesses where my employees had access to sensitive company and client data on a daily basis, so my employees all signed them as a condition of employment.

I have also had contractors, and builders do work for me, and have never been asked to sign a N/C (and I wouldn't have if they did ask).

That contract is very lop-sided in their favor. Look elswhere for a reputable builder.
 
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mikec35

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Was there a time limit for them to complete the project? Penalty if not completed on time so they don't drag out the install?
 
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TeamTruett

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And a big thanks goes out to all those who have given insightful and helpful advice to you.

:beer:

I'm impressed…..[/QUOTE]

Yes a thank you is indeed in order to all. Thanks for keeping my eyes open!:eyecrazy:
 
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TeamTruett

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still no breakdown....and having done some SIPS construction.. I don't see a charge for a "crane" and in my case a day of crane time was almost the "labor" alone in this.

My previous comment still stands, nothing in the contract about chases for elec/plumbing/etc. Nothing about who "dries" it in and by whom. NOthing about stamps on the SIPS that AHJ will accept....drawings?

Perhaps it is possible to set walls and then the roof with out a crane? I just have not been willing to sacrifice safety to do so.

FOB...you own it when it loads at the "factory"....are you prepared to handle/offload/store etc a 53' trailer of panels and again how would you get them unloaded and safely on the pour? Insurance?

Walk or find a conventional 2x construction GC....

WAY too many missing details to sign this .....

The company replied with the following in regards to chases, FOB and crane"

*Chases: "We don't make walls without wire chases, we have two that are standard and we let u have a hot knife to set switches and outlet boxes. All we ask is u send it back when you are finished with it."

*Crane and Unloading:
"We would not need a crane for the install, and we would unload, stage and install panels on site, we would not leave the material on a trailer, in the past when we have builders carpenters install, their schedules are not as tight as our delivery and material has to be staged on site.
Let me know if you want me to amend contract."
 

rustedgoat

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Did you ever do a search "TechBuilt scam"
http://theownerbuilderbook.com/forum/messages.aspx?ID=2659
some of the posts are from awhile ago but check it out

Construction with SIP itself is very interesting. Have you priced out convention construction with 2x6 or 2x8 if you want extra insulation?

It sounds like there are too many exit strategies for everyone but the home owner in that contract by design. I would try to find someone local that has successfully worked with and completed an SIP project.
 
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