Security camera installation ... suggestions?

[michaelrc51]

Re the night time, I am pretty sure you are just agreeing with what I said already???



For the government and high security places I have only ran fiber, even for the camera viewing the equipment room.



300m (about 1000 feet) is the 'limit' most cable manufactures give for their Cat V/VI. And I ran one of my camera's off 1000 ft for a while (connector at each end of a new box of cable), and it worked just as well as it is now running off 50 feet of that box.

The 2500' run was a #8awg shielded custom tech cable. Was actually 6 different runs between 2000' and 2500'. In a gas plant where they wanted visual confirmation of fire eye trouble signals before sending someone in. I wasn't part of the planning to know why optical wasn't used, was just sent out with prints and a trailer full of material.



Everywhere has a spec distance limit for a cable. But honestly I almost never pull any catV/VI unless I am connecting my laptop to a PLC.

I hear you man.
The 328 feet is what the standard but it is meant for full 10/100. Obviously you don't need full gigabyte bandwidth for one camera, but some places are requiring us to certify each cable.
POE works great but I am surprised the voltage drop over that distance wouldn't be a factor.

I to am the guy with tools and prints in hand.

 

[American]

I hear you man.
The 328 feet is what the standard but it is meant for full 10/100. Obviously you don't need full gigabyte bandwidth for one camera, but some places are requiring us to certify each cable.
POE works great but I am surprised the voltage drop over that distance wouldn't be a factor.

That was my next question regarding POE...voltage drops.

http://www.connect802.com/ethernet.htm

The Straightforward Definition

Power-over-Ethernet (Poe) uses two twisted pairs in a standard TIA-568B CAT5/6 RJ-45 Ethernet cable connection to carry DC power to a PoE-enabled device. Here are some important definitions:

IEEE 802.3af: Provides 48VDC up to an effective load of roughly 10 watts to a distance of 100 meters
IEEE 802.3at: Provides 48VDC up to an effective load of 30 watts (or more).
Endspan Injector: Power is injected into the Ethernet cable either by an actual Layer 2 Ethernet switch (which is also able to move data through the Ethernet cable). You'll find endspan injectors mounted in equipment racks.
Midspan Injector: Power is injected into the Ethernet cable using an in-line device that has a Data-IN port and a Data+Power-OUT port. The device, typically a small 2"X1"X3" form factor, is powered using an AC adapter. You'll find midspan injectors mounted to the plywood wall or laying on the shelf in the wiring closet. When the term "PoE Injector" is used it most commonly refers to a midspan injector and is also typically a "Single Port Injector"

 

[michaelrc51]

That was my next question regarding POE...voltage drops.

http://www.connect802.com/ethernet.htm

The Straightforward Definition

Power-over-Ethernet (Poe) uses two twisted pairs in a standard TIA-568B CAT5/6 RJ-45 Ethernet cable connection to carry DC power to a PoE-enabled device. Here are some important definitions:

IEEE 802.3af: Provides 48VDC up to an effective load of roughly 10 watts to a distance of 100 meters
IEEE 802.3at: Provides 48VDC up to an effective load of 30 watts (or more).
Endspan Injector: Power is injected into the Ethernet cable either by an actual Layer 2 Ethernet switch (which is also able to move data through the Ethernet cable). You'll find endspan injectors mounted in equipment racks.
Midspan Injector: Power is injected into the Ethernet cable using an in-line device that has a Data-IN port and a Data+Power-OUT port. The device, typically a small 2"X1"X3" form factor, is powered using an AC adapter. You'll find midspan injectors mounted to the plywood wall or laying on the shelf in the wiring closet. When the term "PoE Injector" is used it most commonly refers to a midspan injector and is also typically a "Single Port Injector"

Yes, basically it is using 2 conductors for power.
The Cat5 is 24ga and Cat6 is 23ga which are very small gauges. Each camera has it's own voltage and amperage requirements so the distance will be dependent on the camera'a requirements.
I am just surprised it works over 1k feet.

 

[gbh]

You'll get lots of good, professional advice on this forum.
I can only add my little experience and what I have done.

As someone mentioned already, cameras that are low get destroyed.
Your situation may differ from mine but here's what I did... after $13,000 of vandalism was done to my and the wife's cars. Insured but still angry.

I installed LOTS of cameras.

All cableing is run through conduit fixed securely every 24" to 36" and jacks protected in boxes so that it can't simply be pulled down or disconnected.

LOTS of sensor lights. I don't want to rely on the IR capability of the cameras. As previously mentioned the colour and definition isn't great with most setups.

Careful positioning of cameras. I have mine set so that someone can't access from a blind spot and knock them out without being recorded doing so.
Also, access to the main house power supply can't be got at by anyone without once again being videoed.
My hard drive is secured inside the house and can't be got at easily.

I have multiple signs that warn of cameras.

I have bought myself a dog (staffordshire terrier) though still a pup.

And still this happened because I neglected to chain up my bike hoist...
9:30 a.m on a weekday, theft of opportunity.
DON'T leave ANYTHING tempting in view for ANY length of time ANYWHERE.

 

[AnthonyJ124]

I have several wireless IP cameras made by Foscam, that I purchased on Amazon relatively cheap. They have both indoor/outdoor and wired/wireless units. I think it's worth at least a quick look. http://foscam.us/#/page/1

Do you like the Foscam? I've looked at their cameras a few times and keep changing my mind. They seem simple and reliable.

I feel like every time a security camera thread comes up, I end up with more expensive plans! What I really NEED is a single or maybe a pair of wireless cameras with some form of recording (even if just motion detected pictures). Maybe it's time I search for a security 101 thread...

 

[Beemer533]

Check out networkcameracritic.com, he does some excellent camera reviews.

Personally, I have had very good luck with the Hikvision cameras.

This post has been edited by the NSA

 

[Pantone032]

Didnt read all the replies but I'd suggest that whatever you pick, hook up the main power source to a backup battery incase of an outage!

Another thing to consider is to have the footage back up to a second source such as a private server (there are "consumer" servers you can buy and set up on your own) or some type of cloud service that can be set to private.

 

[ADCS]

We were really talking about the color factor, I have seen plenty of decent night views but the color is never great due to the fact there isn't enough light.
I would like to see a screen shot of one of these views if possible?

So was I.
Sorry no can do on the pics. It is military tech so irrelevant to this thread anyways.

 

[ADCS]

Check out networkcameracritic.com, he does some excellent camera reviews.

Thanks for the link! That really shows the differences in sensor and lens capabilities.

 

[American]

So, other than big bad PTZ/IR/outdoor cameras, it seems that POE/IP is the way to go which makes total sense to me. (I'm an IT guy)

Where is the best place to buy prepackaged POE systems? Hikvision/Dahau etal. I'd like an 8 camera system on a 16 port NVR and at least 2TB of storage.

 

[Beemer533]

So, other than big bad PTZ/IR/outdoor cameras, it seems that POE/IP is the way to go which makes total sense to me. (I'm an IT guy)

Where is the best place to buy prepackaged POE systems? Hikvision/Dahau etal. I'd like an 8 camera system on a 16 port NVR and at least 2TB of storage.

What is your budget?

One recommendation from personal use; I had (still have actually) a couple Dahua cameras(3mp and 1.3mp) as my first purchases and while they are pretty good for the price I have had some problems with them being unresponsive and night vision issues.

Overall, I have been much happier with my Hikvision cameras.

 

[Beemer533]

Thanks for the link! That really shows the differences in sensor and lens capabilities.

Glad to help; his reviews are pretty much what I have based my camera purchases from..

 

[American]

What is your budget?

What's a budget?

I'm not trying to create a cutting edge surveillance system, just one that will do what it's supposed to, let me see what is going on around my house night and day, record reliably and give me good clear video. I don't care if the color is a bit off, the shading not just right or the IR is a bit grainy.

$1-2K maybe...

 

[Beemer533]

Take a look at the links in my post #28.

It depends on how much area you want to cover and how many cameras you need for that, but say 5 of the cameras I linked to, 2 3tb drives, POE switch and NVR, plus some CAT5e. You would be around $1500...

You could also go with a cheaper NVR, or use a good pc you might already have...

This is also scalable to a point; you could start with only a couple cameras and one hard drive and add on as needed...

The expandability is limited by the NVRs ability to handle a certain number of cameras at up to a certain frame rate. This varies depending on the model NVR or PC hardware, if you go that route.

Personally, I like the NVR as it is dedicated to the task and not used for anything else. You don't need to worry about software or camera licenses either.

Few different ways to go about it..

 

[243]

Do the cameras illuminate identifying the location?

 

[Beemer533]

If you mean are the IR LEDs visible at night, then yes, they are a little bit. They typical have a very dim red glow.

They don't actually emit any visible light like a flood lamp though. .

 

[ToddG]

Costco has great prices...

 

[CarsonConcepts]

One suggestion that we did setting up the camera system on my Father-In-Laws detached shop was to set up one camera inside the building facing the entry door at about head level. With the DVR being in a remote armored location, it gets a great shot anyone's face coming through the door. A lot of criminals will think to hide their face while outside the building but it's natural to look up/forward into the shop as you walk in the door. If someone does break in, chances are they will destroy the camera once they see it, but it will already be too late.

~ Carson

 

[muncie21]

Do you like the Foscam? I've looked at their cameras a few times and keep changing my mind. They seem simple and reliable.

I feel like every time a security camera thread comes up, I end up with more expensive plans! What I really NEED is a single or maybe a pair of wireless cameras with some form of recording (even if just motion detected pictures). Maybe it's time I search for a security 101 thread...

The Foscam units work for what I need. I have a couple monitoring the house and setup to send an email when they detect motion. I'm sure there are better units out there, but these do what I need them to do.

 

[American]

Not sure where you are in your purchase decision, but this is what I am using :

3 MP IP POE powered cameras
Hikvision DS-2CD2032-I

Hikvision DS-2CD2132-I

For POE power I prefer to have a separate poe switch like this;
POE switch

But you can get an NVR with built in POE if you want to keep the networking work to a minimum : http://wrightwoodsurveillance.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=67&products_id=380

I use a similar model just without without POE built in: http://www.hikvision.com/en/Products_show.asp?id=6489&showid=1

Note that if you stick with all Hikvision cameras you can use their free NVR software on a PC. It is a cheaper option than a standalone NVR, but depending on the number of cameras, you will need a pretty strong PC to be able to record at the higher resolutions.

WD purple 3tb

Ok.. all good stuff.


I think I know where I want to head with this, just a matter of going with a full POE/NVR or a POE switch and whatever I want to dump it in to.

I appreciate the info.

Write up from Network Camera Critic: http://www.networkcameracritic.com/?p=1791

 

[American]

One other question. Because of aesthetics and my own desire to be subtle I'd prefer a black or darker bodied camera. House is darker trim and stone.

Anyone every painted or coated these somehow? Maybe Plasticote or ??? I know some want their cameras to be seen as a warning, nothing wrong with that argument, me I'd like them to be a bit more stealthy, I'll warn in other ways.

 

[Beemer533]

One other question. Because of aesthetics and my own desire to be subtle I'd prefer a black or darker bodied camera. House is darker trim and stone.

Anyone every painted or coated these somehow? Maybe Plasticote or ??? I know some want their cameras to be seen as a warning, nothing wrong with that argument, me I'd like them to be a bit more stealthy, I'll warn in other ways.

Actually, the bullet version I linked to is available in black from my distributor.

I have seen folks paint them, but you do void the warranty, so you want to make sure it is functional first.


As far as the poe NVR vs non poe NVR, I will dig up a discussion on ip cabinet that covers that issue.

Basically, I think it is smarter to do a separate poe switch for several reasons;

I the poe supply fails on the NVR you need to pull the whole thing out for service. If you have a standalone switch, all you need to do is get a new switch in place to be back in service.

A standalone poe switch doesn't care what it has plugged into it, where the NVR can be choosy about different camera brands. This is good if you want to say add an Acti Ptz camera later.


There are other network related benefits (IMO) as well.

The one downside I can think of is the network setup initially is a little more involved.


This post has been edited by the NSA

 

[American]

Actually, the bullet version I linked to is available in black from my distributor.

A standalone poe switch doesn't care what it has plugged into it, where the NVR can be choosy about different camera brands. This is good if you want to say add an Acti Ptz camera later.


There are other network related benefits (IMO) as well.

The one downside I can think of is the network setup initially is a little more involved.

All good points. I wonder why Hikvision doesn't list black on the website.. nor can I find it anywhere, even in Google images.

 

[SunsetsAndFriends]

I have read this thread from the beginning too and thinking about getting an 8 camera set-up. I'll keep reading to learn more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pardigital]

One other question. Because of aesthetics and my own desire to be subtle I'd prefer a black or darker bodied camera. House is darker trim and stone.

Anyone every painted or coated these somehow? Maybe Plasticote or ??? I know some want their cameras to be seen as a warning, nothing wrong with that argument, me I'd like them to be a bit more stealthy, I'll warn in other ways.

What about wrapping it in vinyl? You could choose your desired color/match your house trim...

 

[American]

Thinking about a switch like this http://www.provantage.com/edimax-es-5816p~BEDMA00Y.htm

$265

Edimax network ES-5816P 16PORT 10/100M Rackmount POE Web Smart fast Ethernet Switch Retail
Manufacturer Part Number: ES-5816P

ES-5816P is 16-port 10M/100M With 16-port PSE/PoE Rack-mount PoE Web Smart Fast Ethernet Switch that is designed for medium or large network environment to strengthen its network connection. Including rack-mount brackets, the 19


Even better with 24 ports and a couple of GB ports to uplink to an NVR or server or whatever. $325

http://www.provantage.com/d-link-systems-des-1210-28p~7DLNS06N.htm

The D-Link® DES-1210 Series is the latest generation of Web Smart Switches. Equipped with 24 or 48 10/100Mbps ports, two 10/100/1000BASE-T ports, and two combo 10/100/1000BASE-T/SFP ports, the series integrates advanced management and security functions to provide performance and scalability. The DES-1210-28P is built with 10/100 Mbps ports that are PoE-enabled, offering ease-of-use and green features like Time-based PoE and Smart Fan. Time-based PoE can shut off PoE power at a predetermined time, and the Smart Fan feature allows the built-in fans to automatically turn on at a certain temperature, providing continuous, reliable, and eco-friendly operation of the switch. Compliant with 802.3af and 802.3at, the DES-1210-28P is capable of feeding power of up to 30 watts to devices. While easy to use, the DES-1210 Series provides a complete and affordable solution for small and medium businesses. Management options for the switches include SNMP, Web Management, SmartConsole Utility, and compact Command Lines. The series also supports ACL filtering and the D-Link Safeguard Engine™. Furthermore, the DES-1210 Series uses Auto Voice VLAN, ensuring higher priority for voice traffic. Both models come with an innovative fanless design in 19” metal cases.

I'd be able to vlan off the vid feeds if I wanted and run my other gear/servers on here as well. Plus rack mountable which I prefer.

 

[Beemer533]

I would highly recommend the gigabit uplink... The first switch I originally used was just 10/100 and I couldn't get full frame rate from the 6 cameras 3mp cameras.

I ended up with this switch: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00AU...200_QL40&qid=1409260256&sr=8-3#ref=mp_s_a_1_3 and it made all the difference.

This post has been edited by the NSA

 

[American]

I agree and that's why I kept looking after I noticed the Edimax didn't have a gigabit uplinks. Figured there would be a traffic jam without one. I just need/want more than 8 ports. 16 would probably do the trick as well but 24 is nice to have.

 

[tomphot]

You'll get lots of good, professional advice on this forum.
I can only add my little experience and what I have done.

As someone mentioned already, cameras that are low get destroyed.
Your situation may differ from mine but here's what I did... after $13,000 of vandalism was done to my and the wife's cars. Insured but still angry.

I installed LOTS of cameras.

All cableing is run through conduit fixed securely every 24" to 36" and jacks protected in boxes so that it can't simply be pulled down or disconnected.

LOTS of sensor lights. I don't want to rely on the IR capability of the cameras. As previously mentioned the colour and definition isn't great with most setups.

Careful positioning of cameras. I have mine set so that someone can't access from a blind spot and knock them out without being recorded doing so.
Also, access to the main house power supply can't be got at by anyone without once again being videoed.
My hard drive is secured inside the house and can't be got at easily.

I have multiple signs that warn of cameras.

I have bought myself a dog (staffordshire terrier) though still a pup.

And still this happened because I neglected to chain up my bike hoist...
9:30 a.m on a weekday, theft of opportunity.
DON'T leave ANYTHING tempting in view for ANY length of time ANYWHERE.

Just curious.......where do you live?

 

[American]

I have an extra Supermicro 1U server with 8GB of RAM and 4 bays. I typically run CentOS on all of my servers. Anyone ever run ZoneMinder for Linux?

http://www.zoneminder.com

Feature List

Runs on any Linux distribution!
Supports video, USB and network cameras.
Support Pan/Tilt/Zoom cameras, extensible to add new control protocols.
Built on standard tools, C++, perl and PHP.
Uses high performance MySQL database.
High performance independent video capture and analysis daemons allowing high failure redundancy.
Multiple Zones (Regions Of Interest) can be defined per camera. Each can have a different sensitivity or be ignored altogether.
Large number of configuration options allowing maximum performance on any hardware.
User friendly web interface allowing full control of system or cameras as well as live views and event replays.
Supports live video in mpeg video, multi-part jpeg and stills formats.
Supports event replay in mpeg video, multi-part jpeg, stills formats, along with statistics detail.
User defined filters allowing selection of any number of events by combination of characteristics in any order.
Event notification by email or SMS including attached still images or video of specific events by filter.
Automatic uploading of matching events to external FTP storage for archiving and data security.
Includes bi-directional X.10 (home automation protocol) integration allowing X.10 signals to control when video is captured and for motion detection to trigger X.10 devices.
Highly partitioned design allow other hardware interfacing protocols to be added easily for support of alarm panels etc.
Multiple users and user access levels Multi-language support with many languages already included Full control script support allowing most tasks to be automated or added to other applications.
Support external triggering by 3rd party applications or equipment.
xHTML mobile/cellular phone access allowing access to common functions
iPhone interface available

 

[michaelrc51]

I have an extra Supermicro 1U server with 8GB of RAM and 4 bays. I typically run CentOS on all of my servers. Anyone ever run ZoneMinder for Linux?

http://www.zoneminder.com

Feature List

Runs on any Linux distribution!
Supports video, USB and network cameras.
Support Pan/Tilt/Zoom cameras, extensible to add new control protocols.
Built on standard tools, C++, perl and PHP.
Uses high performance MySQL database.
High performance independent video capture and analysis daemons allowing high failure redundancy.
Multiple Zones (Regions Of Interest) can be defined per camera. Each can have a different sensitivity or be ignored altogether.
Large number of configuration options allowing maximum performance on any hardware.
User friendly web interface allowing full control of system or cameras as well as live views and event replays.
Supports live video in mpeg video, multi-part jpeg and stills formats.
Supports event replay in mpeg video, multi-part jpeg, stills formats, along with statistics detail.
User defined filters allowing selection of any number of events by combination of characteristics in any order.
Event notification by email or SMS including attached still images or video of specific events by filter.
Automatic uploading of matching events to external FTP storage for archiving and data security.
Includes bi-directional X.10 (home automation protocol) integration allowing X.10 signals to control when video is captured and for motion detection to trigger X.10 devices.
Highly partitioned design allow other hardware interfacing protocols to be added easily for support of alarm panels etc.
Multiple users and user access levels Multi-language support with many languages already included Full control script support allowing most tasks to be automated or added to other applications.
Support external triggering by 3rd party applications or equipment.
xHTML mobile/cellular phone access allowing access to common functions
iPhone interface available

No, but that would basically be building your own higher quality. Most of the commercial DVR run on Linux.
A lot of those features can be found on most current DVRs. I think you need to figure out what features you need or will use.

 

[Beemer533]

Checkout ipcamtalk.com forum.. A lot of good info there.

 

[American]

Pulled a Dell switch I had in the top of my closet, turns out it's a Dell 3424P that supports 802.3af POE on all 24 ports plus 2 Gb and 2 fiber ports as well! I thought it was just a normal 24 port managed switch.

This switch pushes 15w per port on all 24 ports, the Hikvision cameras are 5w going to 7w when using IR. So, plenty of juice.

 

[gbh]

Just curious.......where do you live?

I live in Nagoya, Japan.

 

[Beemer533]

Pulled a Dell switch I had in the top of my closet, turns out it's a Dell 3424P that supports 802.3af POE on all 24 ports plus 2 Gb and 2 fiber ports as well! I thought it was just a normal 24 port managed switch.

This switch pushes 15w per port on all 24 ports, the Hikvision cameras are 5w going to 7w when using IR. So, plenty of juice.

Wow, nice! I'd say that would do the job..

 

[cherokee]

I will not offer anything to record with but I will suggest some things with the running of the system.
First let me say that I am in law enforcement and I have downloaded so many bad/useless videos it is not even funny...so here are some suggestions.

1)know how to run the thing. Know how to download video, how to find the video, how long your system retains the video....30 days is a good rule of thumb.

2)Cameras up high are nice, but have you ever tried to read a plate from up that high....make sure your system can see plates clear.

3) Here comes the sun....Check it at all times of the day, if the sun is blasting in on your cameras and they are washed out they are usless.

4) maintain the system....clean the lens, the domes.

IMHO you already have the best thing to watch your place while you are away....your pup. A thief is a lazy person, a dog makes it more complex, they will just move down the road, they don't want the stuff, they want something that is easy to sell, or just cash, it is not real common for the thief to come to you and steal your stuff because he wants it...he wants cash for the drugs, or whatever.....that all said cameras are great....if you have a baby sitter, a maid....anyone that comes and goes in your house that does not live there....this includes your kids friends if that applies.

Good luck.

 

[American]

Good points all. Thanks for your input.

 

[John T]

I haven't had time to do the full install yet.



I set up a couple cameras, One in the house .... ( it is interesting how much time Mitch spends at the top of the stairs just looking out the side lites of the front door... a true guard dog)



and another camera pointed at the driveway... ( through the front window)



The picture quality is very very good even through the glass... I am impressed so far.



Still learning all the settings.

 

[John T]

Oh btw
The system is Swann 1080 p
HD system

 

[John T]

This system uses cat5 cables for the cameras

No separate power needed...

The additional cams are 250 each

I could use two more

But don't really want to spend another 500

I am wondering if they make an adapter from Bbc to cat5

Then I can buy a couple cheaper cameras