Seeking help from contractors with build planning/pricing/shopping

[bams50]

Warning in advance: I know this is a long post, but I really need your help. Please take the time to read it. Many thanks!

Once again I am asking the great- and knowledgeable- members of GJ for some education and guidance.

I am in the planning stage of my dream retirement 'car condo' (see my intro link below). Basically it's a 50'120'x18' interior height, divided rougly into thirds- shop, show/gameroom, apartment; steel roof/siding; in-floor heat; pole or stick build.

The building is about 75% built and set up. Unfortunately it's only in my head In real terms, I have the property paid for but have not broken ground. I have it spotted and a rough layout of where the driveway will be, and that's it. I am in the process of selling off some properties which has to come first, since I will not consider any financing- the only way I will do this is to pay cash. So it will be months before I can actually start.

Thus far I have just a very basic, rough beginning of a budget. I have talked to a well-known local builder who actually just finished almost the same exact thing I want. The owner of the just-finished building gave me the overall amount he spent, and it's in the range I was thinking; but of course it's hard to compare that closely.

What I'm trying to do is get a better handle on a realistic budget. This builder has been to the property, took me to the other customer's building and put me with the owner of that building, who gave me a tour of his place. I have had maybe a half-dozen conversations with this builder, and he has spent some time answering my questions.

So here I am, trying to figure out how to proceed. I want to get as much of the planning done as possible, so when the money's ready I am. But part of it is trying to understand the best way to go about hiring the work done. I called the one builder I talked to because he's from my town and well known, and his work is all over to be seen- and seems great. He has pitched me on allowing him to GC the whole shebang: From clearing the lot, installing the septic, building, everything. He has his own subs for electric, plumbing, designer, septic design, etc. and has done all this before, and done it well. He says that if I give him the entire project, he will give me a "great package deal". I like that idea; but he's really a one-man operator that brings in part-time help when needed... so I wonder about his ability to handle a job this size. He readily told me that the other building he did was done partially by others, but I didn't ask him to elaborate yet.

The problem at this stage is, I don't know how far is proper to go. We're talking well over six figures here, so it's just good business to get multiple estimates. But it doesn't seem appropriate to seek those bids until I actually have the money in hand; right? And how much of a PITA would I be to get bids on each piece of the job, AND on the whole job? Where do I even start?

Most people I know just take a name from a newspaper ad or something, then go to the bank, and take what they get. I'm not like most people, who only care what the monthly payment is; I'm paying cash- to which there's a limit. And while I have no experience here, I know in general there's a potential to make a HUGE difference in total cost with due dilligence; and I want what I want, but I will have to stretch my finite money.

I know about comparing apples to apples. I know about assuring the contractor is properly insured. What I don't know is the right way to go about this. I want to be fair, but to the extent I can I also want to avoid the expensive and aggravating pitfalls. Would love to hear from a contractor's point of view, what you prefer and expect from a customer? Also would love to hear from those who have been down this road already.

This is the biggest project I've ever tackled in my life, and I'm trying to figure out the best way. Knowledge is power, right?

Any help would be MUCH appreciated!

 

[Justin1776]

I work for a commercial contractor but I am not a contractor myself, just to be clear. It seems you are torn between project management (one guy in charge, hires out HIS subs) and general contractor (one guy in charge, hires out lowest bid). Personally, I prefer project management. The projects generally go much smoother. There is a chance that jobs bid via lowest bid will be cheaper but the nightmare index is higher. There is nothing wrong with hiring out the help. I would get quotes both ways. Do you have drawn up, approved plans? If not, get these first, get them approved by an engineer/s then you can work on getting accurate quotes instead of scientific wild *** guesses. Many times, people will bid low to get the job then give the sob story that you need XY and Z so they can make a profit. Going with someone that has his people, and is honest, will avoid this, usually. Good luck on the project

 

[jlckmj]

I would say you are off to a good start by talking to a good contractor.

If it were me, I would take the rough plans to an architect and let them draw up your ideas. From that point you will have working plans and you can start to get estimates. It is never to early to get estimates, they will give you an idea of how much it will cost, what needs to be changed etc. . Plans change all the time after the prices come in.

Getting the estimates will also give you an idea on how hard it will or will not be to work with the various contractors, some may need the work enough to work with you, but you may find that a lot of the contractors will not want to work with you, they prefer working for a general contractor that knows what they are doing.

If you find getting estimates is tough, you you may want to consider having the contractor general the whole job.

Jim

 

[jack stand]

Some of my thoughts are;
Do you really need 18' height? Anything over 16' in conventional framing is very expensive.
How interested or capable are you in taking part in the management of this project in the interest of saving money?
IMHO in central NY with a heated bldg. and a finished interior, I'd favor a bldg with 4' frost walls for a foundation and conventional framing up to a 16' wall height. This allows for much more economical insulation and interior finishes than a post-frame (pole) bldg. I would stress the importance of a well insulated "shell" with a building of this size and purpose. Have you ever seen energy prices come down?
The local "turn key" guy sounds like a good choice, but I'd have him break down the budget and specs for each phase of the construction,
Site clearing & prep.
Foundation & below grade foam insulation, radiant & slab.
Wall & roof const.
exterior finishes ("dry in" or "close in")
Any mechanical trades (heat-cool- elec. plumbing)
Insulation
etc. etc. for all different phases or subcontractors
You might visit your bank and ask the mortgage dept for a copy of their "draw schedule" that they prolly have for any of their construction loans. and use that as a guideline for use with your contractor. As a contractor, I hate to say this but get as many bids as you can, just make sure to specify how you want things to be bid to keep all bids "apples to apples" Have them break the bid down by (your) specific phase(s) and a "turn key" number for a total. And as a contractor, I also have to say that you generally get what you pay for, and the cheapest price is not something to be afraid of unless it's crazy cheap. Just do your checking with all of the guys and the best judge is their past customers, priceless information!
It looks like you are doing your homework, an educated customer! Good luck!

 

[bams50]

Good stuff.

I went with 18' because I was told it wouldn't be that much more over 16'. I mostly wanted it so I could split the height for the apartment- I want to make a second floor over the apt. and make that a game room, and thought the extra height would be good to have. I though it would be simpler to carry it throughout the building. I want enough height to easily fit a lift, and get a motorhome or road tractor in if I need to; but that's probably not 18'. Maybe that's something that needs more thought.

As for management, I'm good with the concept of it. I was a business owner for years and can be a ballbreaker when it's needed; however, my organizational skills as regards bookkeeping are not optimal. This is something I need to think through; if the savings are substantial I could handle a one-time build like this. But if it worked out to not be that big a savings I would be very happy to let someone else steer the daily ship and just concentrate on evaluation.

I've done two builds previously; one was a 30x44 garage in 1985, then a modular home in 2004. The garage was a package, but simple; when it came time to get the house we went mod over stick simply because I shuddered at the thought of having to decide every faucet, window, and doorknob. We picked the model, changed a few details and colors, and signed the deal; the company did the rest. I'd do that in this case if someone mod-built this type of thing But they don't, so it's roll up the sleeves time.

Thanks, and keep the comments coming!

 

[BWS]

General rambling....

One word.......Resale.

"Oh we'll never sell this place,its our ___"....yeah,whatever.Hate to burst their bubble,but it WILL be sold at some point.Now,exactly what dipchit contractor built that?IOWs....a contractors rep is on the line.Yes he needs to kiss a little azz,times are hard.But building and architecture is,or should be done with the future in mind.IOWs it should outlive their owners.If a person dosen't understand that simple concept.....well, I sort of don't need them as a customer.

The relationship between customer and builder has to be,IMO....more than just money though.Which is sort of commentary on why we're(building community)in the economic situation we're in.Building JUST for profit has limitations.

If "your guy",has experience in the styles/size/quality that you're looking for.......I'd be real tempted to acquiesce(sp),and have him pilot or steer the project.Keeping a sharp eye on resale.Understanding its not "for" resale,but from a value standpoint or IOWs,getting the most bang for the buck.But this only after checking out lots of his previous work/customers.

Well,there is another word.....its the "T" word,taxes.If for instance,sq footage is the overwhelming criteria for assessment then you need to look at how "quality over quantity" can be utilized.And v.v........BW

 

[ddawg16]

Your asking good questions.....but I have to echo Jack Stands thought on the wall height. Remember, that is your wall....with a slopped roof....plenty of space for a second story room....

Remember, when you start to add up those "Not much more"s......they add up to a lot more. It's ok to spend the money on those things you can't change after the fact....foundation being one of them.

I think a lot of your questions could be answered by a good architect. Might be well worth the money to hire one.....the money spent on him will be saved by less mistakes later on. Many of them can also help with contractors...

 

[kmacht]

There are ways to go slightly over 16' without it getting overly expensive. You could do a 2' cement or block wall around the perimeter berfore building the remainder 16' out of wood or metal.

Keith

 

[IMXCITD]

Sounds like you have some solid ideas. I have to agree w others' idea about starting w an architect. This will let you hit the ground with a solid plan from start...and all parties involved will be on the same page from the start.

I think your savings will be significant if you oversee this project yourself...somewhere around 20% or greater....certainly worth your time.

Once you have plans on paper....even if you are months out from starting...I don't think it's to early to start interviewing contractors or subs. This will give you and idea on pricing and how far out they are booked.

 

[Zeke]

Architect or a building designer? There are those that just do the drawings. You take them to the engineer and the planning dept. If corrections are needed, then the designer should do those for free or a much reduced fee.

I agree with anyone that has said get the plans in hand and have contractors bid the plans. Forget the conversation for now. Give them plenty of time. Put the plans on disc if you can. The electrician only needs the parts that pertain; he doesn't need the sheets on the footings or roof. Pretty much the same with a plumber. If it's on disc then it's cheap enough to give a disc to anyone that wants to bid.

When we used to put out plans for bid, we'd have them come into the office to take off a master set. We hardly let a set go out the door. Today, I think you can even put your plans on the Web.

Once you get a picture of the costs, it's time to select the contractors. You might find a trend, e.g., that some of these guys have worked together before. Listen to them.

If you can be present at all times to answer questions, you can be your own GC. Verify and verify again all measurements as you go. Make sure your door guy knows what rough openings are planned, etc. It's all a matter of coordination of subs, general labor and suppliers.

If you can't do this, then go with someone you feel who can. Get a signed completion date from each if you do it yourself. Get the date from the GC if not and get some incentives attached.

If I think of anything else, I'll post. I did all of this for many years on both sides of having a window sales and installation business.

 

[Falcon67]

I can bet that you try to GC, you'll find your subs will put you last. If they work with one or more GCs that provide steady work and a long term relationship, your one off project will come up dead last on the radar. Your individual quotes would very likely come in higher because they don't know you. If they piss off their regular GC, they stand to lose lots of income. Piss you off or not want to deal with your hard ***-ness, they still have money coming in from the regular guys. The best houses and work that I've seen over the years results from builders that have long term relations with their particular subs. There is value in a good GC and his/her network that has to be figured. It's a "soft cost" but it does carry value for the end result. Something to think about.

 

[Zeke]

I can bet that you try to GC, you'll find your subs will put you last. If they work with one or more GCs that provide steady work and a long term relationship, your one off project will come up dead last on the radar. Your individual quotes would very likely come in higher because they don't know you. If they piss off their regular GC, they stand to lose lots of income. Piss you off or not want to deal with your hard ***-ness, they still have money coming in from the regular guys. The best houses and work that I've seen over the years results from builders that have long term relations with their particular subs. There is value in a good GC and his/her network that has to be figured. It's a "soft cost" but it does carry value for the end result. Something to think about.

That sounds like real small town politics. The OP lives 25 miles out of Syracuse NY, so he should be able to find lots of contractors of all kinds.

 

[jack stand]

I can bet that you try to GC, you'll find your subs will put you last. If they work with one or more GCs that provide steady work and a long term relationship, your one off project will come up dead last on the radar. Your individual quotes would very likely come in higher because they don't know you. If they piss off their regular GC, they stand to lose lots of income. Piss you off or not want to deal with your hard ***-ness, they still have money coming in from the regular guys. The best houses and work that I've seen over the years results from builders that have long term relations with their particular subs. There is value in a good GC and his/her network that has to be figured. It's a "soft cost" but it does carry value for the end result. Something to think about.

I hear that Texas is kinda booming, its a WAY different story back east. I agree that things might have been as you say about 6-8 years ago, but a guy or (homeowner) that is well planned and organized with cash, it not to be put in a low priority position with subs with our current obamanomics that the const. industry is suffering thru now!

 

[Justin1776]

You can fit an upstairs apartment in a 16' foot eave line. Since you are in NY you will have a steep roof slope for snow, plenty of "attic room", vaulting the ceiling will add lots of ceiling height.. All depends on how big the upstairs will be but figure 1 to 2 feet depth of floor joist/trusses. And for RV's and Semi's I would go with a 14 foot door, minimum bridge height is 13.5 feet, I believe vehicle max height is 13'.

 

[Zeke]

Expanding on what Justin said, if you build under a sloping roof, you need one sq ft of area above the 7' level for every sq ft below according to the last code that I read.

If you changed that to 8 feet, it would be perfect for a loft. I think that code is used mostly in rooms with low walls, steep roofs and dormers.

 

[bams50]

As always, lots of great comments from those smarter than I

I see a common theme is to get an architect on the job first. One of my best friends' sons is fresh out of architectural school, and maybe this will be a good job to get his feet wet. If it doesn't work out for some reason I can always go with my builder's guy. Maybe I'll use both! In any case, it now seems clear to me that this is my next move.

Interior height- what you all said makes sense, an upon giving it more thought, I am now planning to go with 16'. I had already figured on a 14' door height would allow any road-legal big rig in. That, and having enough headroom for two stories on the living end are my only concerns; and 16 should answer that just fine- and save a few bucks too.

BWS mentioned Resale. I actually had that as part of my planning from the get-go. My doctor tells me I'm going to die, and at 50 I probably only have another 35-40 years left<G> Part of my plan is to build the apartment easily accessible to any type of handicap, so in theory I could stay there to the end. I know several people that had to give up their dream homes in their 70s; not because of finances, but due to bad hips, knees, etc. they couldn't do the stairs anymore that they never gave a thought to when they built it at 40. I'm planning ahead for that possibility. Then, the apartment will be designed so that if the next owner chooses, it would be easy to tear it out and be left with a 50x120 open-floorplan building. That should really help the value at resale. And you never know, another crazy idea may come along in my life that will make me sell this place for something better. Just a decade ago I thought I'd stay in my current home forever, but here I am going onto something I didn't think about back then!

So I'll definitely have to give this more thought as to how best to proceed once I have plans in hand. My style is cards-on-the-table, so I'll just lay these concerns out to whoever I talk to. The one thing I do know is, Cash is King; not having to worry about putting the work into a bid, only to find out the customer wasn't able to get financed, should go a long way with any contractor. It would with me! So maybe I'll get the plans and just put out a few feelers, but not go ******** for bids until the money's in hand.

I don't always post, but I read every day, and every day I mine nuggets of pure GOLD from some of the threads. Thanks again, and I will read and reread and consider every comment posted.

 

[LutzTD]

the property behind me had a 100x40 steel building that was used as a garage and home. The first 4 feet is a 40x40 full height, then the living area was built above an 8 foot high area another 30 or so feet deep then 2 stories for the rest. Absolutely first rate construction. The last guy there was a landscape contractor who was renting but wanted to buy. He could not buy because NO ONE would lend on that construction. in the end the land was sold to redevelope for a less than bare lot price (was reduced by cost to demo) and they have torn down the house and tore out and filled the pool hole. the original owner was a doctor who died and left it to his son, but the loss they took on it was terrrible.