Seeking info on fire sprinkler systems

[bams50]

I want to put a sprinkler system in my new shop. This would cover two sections: 50x50 shop and 40x50 showroom/gathering area. The interior will be all steel, 18' eave height.

What little I've been able to learn is there is the type that keeps water at the sprinkler head, and the dry type that only sends water up the lines when fire is detected. Thus far I haven't yet learned a lot more than that.

Do any of you have knowledge in this area? Maybe you know someone who does this work or sells DIY systems? Or, maybe you know where I can do further research?

Construction is still months from beginning, so this is still a blank canvas. But I need to get an idea what is required to build this into the plans, and try to get a rough budget. As always, any help would be much appreciated!

 

[larry4406]

I suggest you contact a professional sprinkler company. The local authority having jurisidiction (AHJ) such as the fire marshall and/or building official will most likely require that a voluntary sprinkler system meet Code.

You will then need stamped sprinkler drawings, may have to upsize the water main for fast response, let alone the inspections. I went thru this putting one in a house for a homeowner when the sytem was not required. The homeowner demanded the system having survived a house fire previously.

You are correct that there are wet and dry type systems. Dry systems are used where freezing may be concern. With a dry system, they are charged while in standby mode with a small dedicated air compressor. When a heat source melts the lead fuse in a sprinkler head, the air compressor cannot keep up, the pressure continues to fall, and a deluge valve opens filling the system and then spraying. The volume of the piping is calculated and the time to fill the system is calculated. These parameters are all used to assess the speed of response of the sprinkler system. The incoming water main size is a function of the required response speed. When tripped, the dry systems are subjected to a heck of a hydraulic shock from the incoming flow and thus are braced quite well.

There are other dry systems referred to as a pre-action system. These are as discussed above except that they are interlocked with a smoke detector. Both conditions - loss of air pressure from a popped head and smoke presence are required before the deluge valve will open. This adds an extra layer of caution for critical areas such as computer and/or electrical rooms.

Hope this helps some.

 

[Bigredball90]

Use a regular head (pendant). You only need a dry pendant if its in a freezer so the water wont freeze. I dont know what you guys use up there but you could probably use blazemaster pvc. Basically the same as underground sprinklers but for fire sprinklers. I havnt been doing fire sprinklers for very long so Im not sure of all the rules and regulations of doing it yourself. Im sure you will need to have a permit and get it inspected with pressure on it. We used air to find leaks usually just 10-20 psi on plastic. Then let it out and pump it up with 150+psi of water for the inspection). In florida we have to put hangers or clamps every six feet and within the last two feet of a head. You will also need to have heads a certain distance apart depends on 1/2 or 3/4, and a certain distance of the wall. If its open then you can just do uprights in those areas, but anything with a ceiling will need drops.
All I have time for now, feel free to ask some more questions if I dont know I can ask.

 

[bams50]

Thanks for these quick responses! Already I can see I need to think this through a lot more. I'm glad I asked now, before the (city) water line is run.

I've never (knock wood) had a fire, and am experienced and careful. I like keeping well-maintained commercial fire extinguishers handy. But this is my ultimate dream build (see my intro in sig. line), and part of that dream is the best security I can dream up. Part of that is surveillance (a separate subject I'm studying) and a sprinkler system. Our living quarters will be in the last portion, and while I do not want sprinklers there, that little extra peace of mind is valuable to me; especially if we're off to FL for the winter in our retirement years, or even just away from home for a few minutes! I do things like disconnecting batteries of older cars stored inside, taking extra care when cutting/grinding/welding, etc. But as we all know, things can happen.

This thread will not only help me, it will be here for others coming along. I did a quick search for 'sprinkler' and while it produced several threads, none were specifically on this subject, and I didn't yet take the time to search through all those threads. Reminds me of the importance of assuring that a thread title is about the thread subject

 

[bams50]

Oops, sorry, for some reason my sig. line is not showing. Will have to figure that out tonight after work. For now, here's my intro:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=139646

LOL, Ok, now it shows...

 

[freeflynstl]

Hiya,

I work for Potter Electric and our name is synonymous with fire protection as we've been in the alarm and sprinkler flow, tamper, and pressure business for over 100 years. I work a lot here in the midwest and know fire sprinkler contractors, engineers, AHJs and Fire Marshalls from Minneapolis to El Paso and all points East of there.

If I heard you right, you would like fire sprinklers in your garage or work area and not in your home. I won't try to talk you into something you don't want but I'm just curious why not your home. This is the Garage Journal so we'll stick to that. Once you pay for someone to do the calcs, design your system and get a contractor in there to do it I don't think you'll pay much more for protection in your home.

Fire protection is my bread and butter. I'm very passionate about it and once you meet a child at burn camp or talk to those that have been saved by home fire sprinklers I think you'll agree it's a great idea. I think it's great you're thinking of it in your garage. I think previous posters are more than correct. This is not a DIY project...unless your a fire protection engineer and sprinkler fitter.

Just my $.02. If you need a reference to a reputable contractor in your area let me know.

Andy from STL

 

[blkhonda1991]

sprinkler systems ahve gotten cheaper with the approval of plastic piping for residential applications too. your best bet is to contact a sprinkler company or an MEP engineer, i dont know what they will require since you arent doing this for code reasons but your water main/pressure might not be adequate for a sprinkler system.

 

[blkhonda1991]

Hiya,

I work for Potter Electric and our name is synonymous with fire protection as we've been in the alarm and sprinkler flow, tamper, and pressure business for over 100 years. I work a lot here in the midwest and know fire sprinkler contractors, engineers, AHJs and Fire Marshalls from Minneapolis to El Paso and all points East of there.

If I heard you right, you would like fire sprinklers in your garage or work area and not in your home. I won't try to talk you into something you don't want but I'm just curious why not your home. This is the Garage Journal so we'll stick to that. Once you pay for someone to do the calcs, design your system and get a contractor in there to do it I don't think you'll pay much more for protection in your home.

Fire protection is my bread and butter. I'm very passionate about it and once you meet a child at burn camp or talk to those that have been saved by home fire sprinklers I think you'll agree it's a great idea. I think it's great you're thinking of it in your garage. I think previous posters are more than correct. This is not a DIY project...unless your a fire protection engineer and sprinkler fitter.

Just my $.02. If you need a reference to a reputable contractor in your area let me know.

Andy from STL

his shop is detached and probably will have a lot more in terms of irreplaceable items if his cars are classic, the house not so much.

 

[jpinca]

Re: Seeking info on firehttp://www.garagejournal.com/forum/forumdis sprinkler systems

I'm dealing with this is now as sprinklers are required for my detached garage project. The AHJ (County Fire Marshall's Office) has said they will allow owner design and installation of the system. NFPA 13D is the governing standard for my area and the requirements seem pretty straightforward. If your project would be governed by NFPA 13R, or even NFPA 13, then it would be more complicated.

Mine is a little complicated by the fact that I'm on a well, so have to install 3000 gallons of water storage and a additional pump.

 

[Bigredball90]

Larry are those types of dry heads with air compressor a newer style or older? I havnt run across any before. The ones we use have a brass rod inside so when the glass breaks it simply drops down and its seal collapses allowing the water through.

bams50 in florida if you have sprinklers in your house you get a nice deduction on your homeowners insurance. Idk if its the same up there but might be worth looking into.

 

[bams50]

Andy, et al-

Your question about the home is a good one, and deserves an answer; here's my thought process.

As you can see in my sig. line thread and post #4, this is one building in three sections- shop in front, showroom in middle, apartment in rear. I want sprinklers in the front two areas since this is where cars will be, thus the highest risk of fire. The shop will have expensive equipment and cars. The showroom will contain anywhere from 5-10 classic cars, plus lots of expensive memorabilia- restored neon, antique gas pumps and the like. As a sideline I do inspections of high-end cars and handle shipping of same, many times to other countries. Sometimes this involves temporarily storing them for the client, including museum quality stuff that only sees enclosed transport and climate controlled storage.

My thought was, if a fire started it would almost certainly be in one of the front two areas. If that happened, sprinklers would be right for those areas with minimal water damage. But if I have sprinklers in the house, everything would be drenched unnecessarily, ruining all the furniture, carpet, electronics, etc. If a fire started in the apartment there would be all that damage, but would eventually trigger the sprinklers and protect the other areas. But the odds of a fire starting in the apartment would be tiny compared to the other areas. Does that make sense?

Brb90- I never thought about a possible insurance discount. Good tip! I'll definitely look into that.

Great info here. I had hoped to have a dialogue on this subject so I'd have some knowledge, and therefore a better idea of what I want, before I consult a pro, and that's what we're doing. Much appreciated!

Glad to hear any more ideas, critiques, or criticism. You can never have TMI (too much info).

At least on garage matters, you can't

 

[bams50]

One bump since this forum moves so fast!

 

[NUTTSGT]

If you put in sprinkler heads, you better have a tall ceiling. You do not want to be working out there and knock off a sprinkler head. Trust me, they flow ALOT of water.

 

[Bigredball90]

ALOT of water.

+1 even without pressure!

 

[Rentawrench]

Thinking Water may Damage some of your things, an water not the Best for Electric /Gasoline fires.

Look at BHR4CE1 Build around post #72 down to 81 or so.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96418&page=4


May not need all permits for them
http://www.griotsgarage.com/product/ceiling+mounted+unmanned+fire+extinguisher.do?sortby=ourPicks

or look into a large dry powder system used in kitchens to contain grease fires. Yes there BIG Buck ( so is Sprinker system) But it's nothing compared to what the cost is of your belongings in showroom.

Come to think about it thats what is used in a spraybooth.

 

[MoonRise]

Andy, et al-

Your question about the home is a good one, and deserves an answer; here's my thought process.

...

My thought was, if a fire started it would almost certainly be in one of the front two areas. If that happened, sprinklers would be right for those areas with minimal water damage. But if I have sprinklers in the house, everything would be drenched unnecessarily, ruining all the furniture, carpet, electronics, etc. If a fire started in the apartment there would be all that damage, but would eventually trigger the sprinklers and protect the other areas. But the odds of a fire starting in the apartment would be tiny compared to the other areas. Does that make sense?

Brb90- I never thought about a possible insurance discount. Good tip! I'll definitely look into that.

Great info here. I had hoped to have a dialogue on this subject so I'd have some knowledge, and therefore a better idea of what I want, before I consult a pro, and that's what we're doing. Much appreciated!

Glad to hear any more ideas, critiques, or criticism. You can never have TMI (too much info).

At least on garage matters, you can't

Check for applicable building codes that may apply in your case. Since this is a 'business', commercial-type levels of the codes would apply (if you are doing 'work' and getting paid for it, that pretty much is a business).

Next, most 'modern' sprinkler systems don't trip all the heads, just the one(s) that tripped. So, for a fire in the 'shop' only those heads where the fire 'is' will trip/open/spray, and the rest of them (in the others parts of the shop or in the dwelling area) will not.

http://www.cmpfire.com/faq.html

http://www.cmpfire.com/dry_pipe_sprinkler_systems.html

http://www.cmpfire.com/wet_pipe_sprinkler_systems.html

Deluge systems are typically only used in high-risk/high-hazard areas.

http://www.cmpfire.com/deluge_sprinkler_systems.html

Re: insurance. If sprinklers are not required, you 'should' be eligible for at least some sort of insurance discount. If sprinklers are 'required' (business use or residential-code requirements), then you can't get permits or a CofO or insurance without them.

http://www.cmpfire.com/residential_sprinkler_systems.html

ex: Riverside County, California -requires- residential sprinkler systems in one and two family dwelling, effective as of Jan 1, 2011. Sprinkler permit review fee is listed as $614 for plan review, check or money order only, additional funds may be required (WTF?).


http://www.rvcfire.org/opencms/func...al_Fire_Sprinkler_Form_REV_2~_Final_Draft.pdf

http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/codedevelopment/residentialsprinklerandcacodes.php

 

[Frank The Plumber]

This is not do it yourselfer stuff. You have safety aspects that require a licensed and insured company to do the work.

The reason is that this is big boy stuff, if you have a fire and some one dies because you DIY'd this together you are done, big time. When hizoner rattles through the questions regarding who you are and how you determined all of the design on a system that failed and cost possibly life and you stare forward and answer "uh". That is going to be bad, very bad. Involuntary manslaughter bad. Better to pay to say." He did it your honor." I stay far away from this stuff as the insurance is high and the qualifications for insurability are very tough. Any time the system is used you will be under the micro scope.

 

[bams50]

Wow. I am overwhelmed with the responses here. Really!

I will read and re-read all the information shared here so generously as I approach this aspect of my build. And, you have all created a great reference thread for others looking into this in the future. Bravo!

I had never heard of anything like those unmanned extinguishers. At this point I think that might be exactly the right thing for my situation! Reading the comments about things like design liability, and codes, and water supply, and professionals and everything else, I was starting to think this might be beyond my budget. In my area code does not require it, I just wanted it for my own peace of mind. I'm a big fan of plentiful extinguishers, but they need someone present to operate them. Those Griot's Garage unmanned extinguishers look like exactly what I need, plus simple to install and super cheap compared to a whole water system. I'm pretty excited about them- what a find!

Sincerely, thank you all for your contributions. I haven't decided anything for sure, but now I can research and educate myself, as opposed to going off half-cocked and ending up with the wrong thing.

Again, BRAVO to this great forum and its members!

 

[holdover]

I have had a sprinkler system in my house from the time it was built in 1977. I installed it myself, but it was a designed system drawn up by sprinkler professionals, one of the best peace of mind things I have done. I live in a rural area where the FD is Vol and 7 miles away. My water source is a well with 1.5" feed line and 1" distribution. As to flow rates a drop of water at the right time is better than a gallon at a later stage. every 100 sg ft has a sprinkler, every closet also has one, if a room was 150 sq ft it has 2. The leg in the garage is dry with small compressor and a one way valve. There were no codes for residental when installed in this area. I get a discount on fire insurance because of the system. No plastic in the installation. Every room also has a smoke detector, and there are at least 5 fire extinguishers in the house. Why all of this , I have been a FF for many many years and I have seen what a fire can do and how quick they can spread.

"his shop is detached and probably will have a lot more in terms of irreplaceable items if his cars are classic, the house not so much." My garage has classic cars, hot rods, tools and daily drivers, but my house is where my family is, insurance can replace the stuff in the garage, it can't replace people, pictures or family treasures.

 

[cderalow]

being in the world of commercial construction I can tell you a few things about sprinkler systems.

1) you will need an engineer to at minimum design the system. This is a requirement in almost every Jurisdiction, voluntary system or not. They will need to know the size of your water main, and a bunch of other information, including the static pressure at your water connection. They will do a bunch of calculations. make sure they design to NFPA13. Not 13D or 13R. straight up 13.

2) you could in theory DIY the installation of the piping. You will need a pipe threader & cutter and a bunch of pipe fitter tools. renting them can be expensive, owning them doubly so. you will want to use schedule 40 black iron pipe similar to a compressed air line installation. DO NOT USE PLASTIC. regardless of what anyone else says, I've seen these systems melt, and they are not good for use in a quasi-industrial setting such as a garage or shop. you may want a pro sprinkler fitter to install the heads. if done incorrectly, you can damage them internally, which causes a flood the moment you charge the system. not fun.

3) you cannot just DIY an installation with willy nilly placement of sprinkler heads. sprinkler systems are design very specifically with a certain area of coverage per sprinkler head based upon a bunch of conditions (wall placement, ceiling height etc). They are not just placed randomly, and generally can only move in a 2' circle from their designed placement. sprinkler pipe is sized very specifically for number of heads and distance from the main etc. you may also need a pump, and without an engineer, you won't know. without the correctly design system, it might be completely useless in the event of a fire.

4) you will need the system inspected. this involves a couple of steps, typically a hydro test, where the system is charged to 150+ PSI for 2+ hours to confirm no leaks, and a final visual inspection.

5) in theory the system should tie into some sort of fire alarm annuciator system. just in case the gushing shower above doesn't clue you into a fire, but more to give warning to other areas that the system is going off.

6) there's four types of system. dry (described above), wet (also described above), dry-interlock/pre-action (again, above) and FM200/chemical systems. You may want a combination of a wet and FM200 system depending on exactly what is stored in the area. a FM200 system is what is frequently used in computer data centers to avoid damage to the systems. they essentially smother the fire, but require that the room is sealed and has a direct exhaust to outside air.

7) the tall ceilings are not a requirement, but recessed heads with covers are definitely recommended. knocking a sprinkler head off is not a fun experience.

8) sprinkler water smells. bad. really really bad. this is a fact of life, and after your first discharge, you will regret your decision.

9) invest in a large industrial trash can with rolling base. you will eventually need this, and when you figure out why, you'll come back to this and thank me.

 

[bams50]

Lots of good knowledge shared here. Cderalow, I think you have convinced me to scrap the whole sprinkler idea. This is going to be a cash build- no borrowed money- financed by the net proceeds of the sale of a couple pieces of property (read: not exactly a fortune). Plus, I have never built anything like this before, and with the amount of planning, research, and decision making it requires, I don't need the added huge can of worms you and Frank and Moonrise have described... and with what you describe it sounds like it might not fit my budget anyway. Or at least, it's several thousand dollars that can be better used elsewhere. I'm already dreading deciding every faucet, doorknob, outlet, and cabinet. I don't need to add any more cocky inspectors that get their jollies out of nitpicking me into an ulcer; there's enough of that already for the foundation, structure, septic system, etc.

I think those unmanned extinguishers are my answer. Frankly, I'm not excessively afraid of fire; I'll have all new wiring, I know how to be careful with flammable liquids and fumes and sparks, practice good safety, and disconnect power to all cars stored inside. That, plus extinguishers, plus the odds in general, will keep my fire risk extremely low. Mostly I was concerned about when nobody was around, and the unmanned extinguishers are a good answer to that. Nothing is perfect, but that will be pretty close. Being that this is my own desire and not a code requirement, my path seems pretty clear.

Thanks again all. This thread produced a perfect answer for my situation. I had never heard of those extinguishers, and they will give me what I want and save a pile of effort and cash.

When the shop gets done, you are all invited for beer and pizza- my treat!

 

[Ray-CA]

This has been an extremely informative thread. The City is requiring that I also install a "fire suppression system" (any detached garage 500sqft or larger.) I was looking at a dry chemical system but the cost for those looked to be HUGH. The fire dept. inspector told me that they are only interested in keeping the fire knocked down so that it doesn't spread to adjacent structures and that water was sufficient for that. Looks like I'll need to get some more information.

Ray