Selecting a drywall mud

[matt_i]

I was at Home Depot today and was perusing drywall mud choices for the not-yet-there-next-step in my shop build. Currently hanging the drywall but not ready to tape + mud yet. But eventually I'll get there

So I see premixed USG Dust-Control, USG Ultra Lightweight, USG Plus 3 in pails.

Then "dry powder" USG Durabond 90, and Easy Sand 90, Easy Sand 30 and maybe Easy Sand 10.

I did learn that the number means "open time" before it sets up, that makes sense.

But I'm overwhelmed here as far as how to select. Just want something durable at the end. I don't care a lot about sanding since I'm going to do knockdown texture. So I plan just a rough-sand. Also I'm not trying to eliminate a "2nd trip" to the job so a longer open time is fine as well. I'm here almost every day

Any suggestions on how to select, or maybe I should be trying another brand? Not opposed to spending more to get a better quality or easier-to-apply product. Not opposed to mixing my own from the dry powders either. It seems like the pail mixes are a little stiff anyway.

Appreciate any guidance you can help with.

 

[mike93lx]

don't buy premix unless you want the project to take forever. That requires a day between coats, whereas 90 minute can be multi-coated in one day.

if you are mixing, be careful on doing too much at once. setup an area, out of the way, if possible with extra water, rags, etc. It's going to be messy and frustrating and you will likely swear that you'll never do it again. then you'll forget or ignore how bad it was the last time and try again, only to swear, yet again, you will never do it again.

IMO, hire it out. Drywall work *****

 

[manwithtools]

Numbers are inversely proportional to experience and available working time and amount to mix.

The lower the number, the quicker it sets up and the less you will want to mix at once.

Use the light weight in pails if it's your first experience with mudding....

You may get two coats in a day if you start early. Might be better to hire out as said above. Depends on your skills and time available.

 

[ford33]

I use the pre-mix mud and find it acceptable for my remodels. I didn't want the mess of having to mix it and then cleaning buckets and tools multiple times. It costs more but the ease of use makes it worth it.

The general purpose mud went on smooth and easy and stuck to the tape and drywall very well. When i read light weight mud, I think of air in the mix or lightweight material. I would think a hard heavy mix stands up to wear and abuse better. It spreads easier and is smooth for primer.

If this is your first time, you will appreciate the extra drying time of the pre-mix. It will give you an opportunity to work the mud and fix your mistakes. Just remember to put on thin and in multiple coats. Don't try to be the expert drywall pro the first time and get it done in 2 coats. A first timer should put on many thin coats and use this as practice. You will not need to sand anywhere near as often. And it is the sanding that makes all the mess.

Good luck.

 

[PAToyota]

The powder (setting) type holds up better to temperature fluctuations in an unheated (or irregularly heated) garage.

 

[finn]

I have used the powder 45 in areas that have questionably large gaps, with mixed results.

For normal joints I prefer the ultra lite.

Another day to dry is no big deal.. there’s plenty of other work to do, and sometimes it’s nice to split up a detestable job.

 

[LXCam]

Get the boxed premixed taping compound. A five gallon bucket (two actually), a lid and a paddle or spiral mixer if you have a good torquey 1/2" drill. Thin it out with water (I'm sure there's a YouTube vid somewhere). After you load your pan scrape down the sides and keep the mud fairly flat. Keep the other bucket half full of water and have a brush handy for cleaning your tools. At the end of the day flatten out the remaining mud, use the brush and thoroughly clean the sides then dump about a inch of water over it and seal the bucket. When you're ready to do another coat, pour out as much of the water as reasonably possible and mix it again.

If you've not got much experience taping and have a large area to do, stay clear of the dry mixes - youlll hate it. But if you have any big gaps to fill get a bag of 20 minute and do those first before you start taping.

 

[manwithtools]

I use the pre-mix mud and find it acceptable for my remodels. I didn't want the mess of having to mix it and then cleaning buckets and tools multiple times. It costs more but the ease of use makes it worth it.

The general purpose mud went on smooth and easy and stuck to the tape and drywall very well. When i read light weight mud, I think of air in the mix or lightweight material. I would think a hard heavy mix stands up to wear and abuse better. It spreads easier and is smooth for primer.

If this is your first time, you will appreciate the extra drying time of the pre-mix. It will give you an opportunity to work the mud and fix your mistakes. Just remember to put on thin and in multiple coats. Don't try to be the expert drywall pro the first time and get it done in 2 coats. A first timer should put on many thin coats and use this as practice. You will not need to sand anywhere near as often. And it is the sanding that makes all the mess.

Good luck.

Light weight is mostly a marketing term. It has some materials mixed in to expand its coverage and be easier to sand. Otherwise, it's the same as any other pre-mixed compound. Don't over think this stuff, it's all basically the same, no matter the color of the lid on the bucket.

 

[LXCam]

Here I found one but he doesn't explain prep for a few days of storage.

 

[aabirdman]

I use 5 minute powder for any big spacing, cracks or holes. I'll use 20 minute to bed tape and second coat. I there's a lot of footage I'll drag out the boxes to second coat and spot nails. I should have bought a bazooka a long time ago but didn't. Getting ready for my barn build and just might.

 

[Whitworth]

I use both on a typical job (as home owner/amateur)

The pros of the dry powder is a faster set, a stronger finished product, and maybe more water/damp resistant.
The cons are working in small batches, and getting a good smooth coat. Some will say 'hard to trowel, add more water' but that leads to a weaker product.

For a novice, the quicker the set, the more frustrating applying it will be. IMHO, the 45 and 90 minute products are no better than premixed in a bucket. They take a long time to dry, and at least overnight if you want to sand it. The 30 minute product is better, much better, but man, you have to move quick with it before it turns into clay.

Dry mix favors building quick coats ,I also like to use it for outside corners, it's stronger. Pre-mixed I get a better finish from and it's easy to scoop.

 

[acer66]

I really like this guys channel.

 

[Git]

The 'dry powder' is usually what is called 'hot mud'. It uses a chemical reaction to harden (not dry) Once it gets wet, the reaction starts and you need to use what you mixed up or throw it away. (The pre-mix dries from evaporation so it tends to shrink where hot mud won't)

Hot mud is harder to sand so usually, a 'topping' compound (pre-mix) is used for the finish coats

 

[scottydosnntkno]

My drywall guys (who do 300k ft+) a month only use proform light blue premixed mud for everything.

 

[6768rogues]

For large areas where I have time for the coats to dry, I use premix and I like the lightweight stuff. If it is a smaller job and I want to get it done, I use dry powder because it does not shrink as much and I can choose one with a drying time that is right for my job. With the right dry powder on a small job, I can put on a coat, clean my tools and take a break, and then go to the next coat. A big job where I have hours of application, I use the mixed buckets so that it only needs agitation and I have lots of time to finish the application. Then I wait till the next day to continue.
If you have a banjo for taping, load it with paper tape and diluted compound. If you don't have a banjo, put on a thin coat of mud, put the tape in water to get it saturated, and then put it on the joint. Then run your trowel over it to push it into the mud. If you put paper tape on dry, it will soak up the water in the mix and will bubble up and sometimes fall off. Let it dry and then build up the joint. Don't use mesh tape.

 

[manwithtools]

If you have a banjo for taping, load it with paper tape and diluted compound. If you don't have a banjo, put on a thin coat of mud, put the tape in water to get it saturated, and then put it on the joint. Then run your trowel over it to push it into the mud. If you put paper tape on dry, it will soak up the water in the mix and will bubble up and sometimes fall off. Let it dry and then build up the joint. Don't use mesh tape.

I've run a lot of mud and tape and I've seen a ton more done and I've NEVER seen or heard of soaking drywall tape in water prior to application. If it's applied correctly, it will not have any issues. There is simply no way that a production crew (or I) would ever do that.

Have you ever watched an experienced crew tape and mud? I've seen guys do 14 ft high walls by using one set of stilts attached to another set of stilts. I can assure you, he was not stopping to soak tape in water

 

[yeldogt]

I have never had regular drywall guys not use the premixed product after they hang ... If patching or working with new and old ... or if doing a small room ... then the dry fast set.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

Almost never used anything but mesh tape here except for bullnose corners.
I like 45 for doing a first coat over screw holes and such, unless there is so much that premix will dry before you have time to get back around to the start.

30 min is not your friend if you don't know what you are doing.

 

[PhysicsDude]

I second what most other people have said:

1. hire someone to do it if you have the means, drywall labor is cheap, the work *****, and you probably won't be as good at it as you think, at least not at first.

2. Pre-made drywall compound that comes in a box is the way to go. Sure it might be 20% more expensive or whatever, but its mixed better than you're likely to mix your own, and saves a lot of time and headache. Get the fast drying stuff and apply thin layers - you can sand it like 1 hour after you apply it if you do it right. Waiting overnight for the mud to dry is a big PITA.

 

[biggziff]

Hire someone. You'll be glad you did.

 

[Kaizen]

Self taught here. I never hire someone when I can do it myself.
Lightweight compound in five gallon buckets. Get a stainless steel mud trough, mixing attachment with two adjustable mixers (battery drill works fine), three knives (6,8,12 inch), mesh self stick tape. It’s not the mud it’s the knife/trowel/whatever it’s called. Use 3 coats with increasing size. Thin! The ends of the drywall have a detent to hold the mud. Where it’s not there use pressure on knife to feather the edge. When done right and mud is smooth there will be very little sanding. Garage is a good place to learn the feel for it. You should go through a few buckets. Even though thin still takes a lot of mud.


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[rlitman]

...So I see premixed USG Dust-Control, USG Ultra Lightweight, USG Plus 3 in pails.

Then "dry powder" USG Durabond 90, and Easy Sand 90, Easy Sand 30 and maybe Easy Sand 10...
I don't care a lot about sanding since I'm going to do knockdown texture...

The premix is a mixture of mostly talc and water. It is pretty weak, shrinks a lot, and supports mold growth (unlike real plaster, which does not). Still, it's fast to work with, and gives great joints over tape.

However, you want a texture, and premix is not appropriate for skim coating a whole wall with a texture. That calls for real plaster.

Plaster comes in 90, 45, 30, and Plaster of Paris, which is 20. That's the setting time, but the working time is more like 3/4 of that. Basically, they start with plaster of paris, and add stuff that slows down the cure, plus makes it easier to sand (which also makes it lighter). I like the 45. Just work in areas not too large to handle, and remember that unlike premix, scrap down your tools and dump out the plaster, because chunks will set up underwater. And you don't want it setting in your drain trap after you wash down.

Light weight is mostly a marketing term. It has some materials mixed in to expand its coverage and be easier to sand...

It has a bunch of perlite instead of being all talc. That cuts the weight by something like 25%. The down side is that perlite is grittier, so it doesn't feather as smoothly. The up side is that because it is lighter, it doesn't sag as much on vertical surfaces when you apply it thick (around electrical boxes for example). So, it's a little faster for quick patching holes in walls (useless on ceilings), because you can put up more before it slumps. But again, premix isn't appropriate for knockdown.

 

[ddawg16]

Another self taught here.....

The pre-mix stuff? For a large project, I got that route. Because it's just me, it's going to be another day before I can get around to sanding what I put up.

Otherwise I use the 90 min mud. I can keep a bag in the garage and mix up what I need when I need it. And since it's most likely a small job, it will be dry in a few hours so I can sand/float another coat.

Regarding soaking paper.....I tried that....then learned it's better to toss a bit of water in the pre-mixed stuff so it's wetter when you are doing the first coat.

 

[matt_i]

Hire someone. You'll be glad you did.

I would lean that route but I don't think it would work. They'd have to come back 4 to 5 times to finish the thing (due to garage-Tetris) and that would probably put my price somewhere quite high.

Along those lines, I probably should have hired an excavator or hired the concrete done or hired a roofer or an electrician....you get the idea...if it *had* to be smooth and flat and painted with gloss, I would but the knockdown will match the interior of my other shop and it seems random enough to hide most imperfections.

Seems like the "lightweight" is the most recommended here. Thanks for all of the info, I learned a lot!

 

[PAToyota]

Professional drywall jobs? You'll see boxes of mud delivered with the rock and screws. The crew will have some quick set for special use, but will predominatley use the pre-mix.

The "pros" are more concerned with being awarded the bid, getting things done fast, getting to the next job, and making their money. Unless it is specifically specified, they're not necessarily doing the best possible job.

The premix is a mixture of mostly talc and water. It is pretty weak, shrinks a lot, and supports mold growth (unlike real plaster, which does not). Still, it's fast to work with, and gives great joints over tape.


[snip more details]

Yep. As I said, premix isn't the best option out there.

 

[Augus7us]

Matt, I like this guys videos. He clearly knows what he is doing and goes over a lot of the basics. It will make you sick to see how easy he can lay down the mud with a pan and a few knives, but he really upped my game. I still **** but some how I'm a lot better at it than when I started.

He seems to only use the premix and dilutes it with water and a paddle mixer before using. As others point out I'm sure there are better ways to do it. However, I doubt most houses are any different than what's in this video, unless your living in a seven figure house. Good luck, I just took deliver of 70 sheets for my shop yesterday. I'll be in your boat soon!

-Clint

 

[Fixed]

Premix. No idea why anyone here is recommending anything else... There's no way in hell if you're asking what mud to use you're going to be getting mud on the walls faster than it'll be drying.

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[rlitman]

Premix. No idea why anyone here is recommending anything else...

Because those who are recommending premix have no idea how a knockdown finish works, and are only experienced with feathering over tape joints.

 

[LXCam]

Because those who are recommending premix have no idea how a knockdown finish works, and are only experienced with feathering over tape joints.

Ya whatever you say

 

[manwithtools]

Premix. No idea why anyone here is recommending anything else... There's no way in hell if you're asking what mud to use you're going to be getting mud on the walls faster than it'll be drying.

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[Fixed]

Because those who are recommending premix have no idea how a knockdown finish works, and are only experienced with feathering over tape joints.

Lol, the 15yr pro tapers that I've seen spraying and knocking down premix must need a lesson!

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[gunguy]

As you see, the opinions run the gamut. A good place to learn taping and finishing skills is in the garage. A mud tray, some knives, and a pole sander along with some tape and mud will get you started. You should be able to acquire all the tools and supplies for well under $100. Watch a few videos and you decide what type of tape and mud you want to use. I like the Drywall Doctor

. but the ones suggested are good too.

The only other suggestion is to reconsider the textured finish. Yes, little or no sanding is required but it tends to collect dust and dirt, even on the ceiling.

Good luck

Jim

 

[manwithtools]

^^^ I'd also suggest if you can, go to a job sight and watch some pro finishers for 20 mins or so. Watch their work sequence, their hand motions, how they keep the knives clean by always scraping the excess pack into the pan. You learn how to do this without looking at the pan or knife, use that time to plan your next knife full of mud's application

Notice how little mud they are actually applying to the wall in each coat. Progressively wider knives for each coat. Multiple thin coats are better than fewer thick ones. There should be no sanding between coats once you get the hang of it. Use the knife to knock off the high spots after it dries and then give it another coat. Clean your tools often and well. Get stainless knives if you can.

 

[Kevin54]

When I had my drywall guy do my garage, he used already mixed to just lay the tape. Next day he used dry mix. Day after that he used dry mix. But he knocked off any nibs with a pole sander. Next day dry mix again, let dry. The last day was final sand. And imperfections or dents was filled with 5 minute mix. It took him a week to do my garage, but he was only here for a couple hours a day. And as far as putting the compound on...progressive trowels. The last one was maybe 18" wide. And as far as sanding.....probably 4 or 5 hours tops over the week.

 

[acer66]

If you don't have a banjo, put on a thin coat of mud, put the tape in water to get it saturated, and then put it on the joint. Then run your trowel over it to push it into the mud. If you put paper tape on dry, it will soak up the water in the mix and will bubble up and sometimes fall off.

Interesting, I was working with a drywall guy 20+ years ago and he said the same thing about putting the tape in water first.

 

[Augus7us]

So I had to lookup knockdown texture but my guess was fairly accurate, similar to my ceilings in the new house.

I generally agree with Matt's posts and find him to be a well researched and a knowledgeable guy. But you got me scratching my head on this one. I'm curious why you want to go with this texture? Like the others pointed out I just see it being a dust magnet and I envision it getting damaged easily. Like stuff leaning up against the wall or bumping into it and knocking off some of the raised surface.

Not trying to start a debate, just curious why you choose to go this route. If you want to paint it purple with pink polka dots, I support you brother, just not going that route in my shop

-Clint

 

[manwithtools]

Interesting, I was working with a drywall guy 20+ years ago and he said the same thing about putting the tape in water first.

Every single time I've seen tape fail to stick, it was the result of using a banjo or insufficient mud under the tape. Anyone who has done a fair bit of this can see the failure of the tape to adhere while they are applying it. It's kind of ironic, the sheetrock is covered with paper and the tape is made of paper, do these folks soak the sheetrock in water before mudding too?

I've got a garage full of bad tape joints, you can pull the tape and see no mud under 75% of it. It wasn't because the tape soaked up moisture, it's because there's no mud under it. I'll wager they used a banjo on it.

 

[Git]

Every single time I've seen tape fail to stick, it was the result of using a banjo or insufficient mud under the tape. Anyone who has done a fair bit of this can see the failure of the tape to adhere while they are applying it. It's kind of ironic, the sheetrock is covered with paper and the tape is made of paper, do these folks soak the sheetrock in water before mudding too?

I've got a garage full of bad tape joints, you can pull the tape and see no mud under 75% of it. It wasn't because the tape soaked up moisture, it's because there's no mud under it. I'll wager they used a banjo on it.

FibaFuse

It is a 'glass mat drywall tape' (not nylon mesh) tape that you easily embed into the compound. HomeDepot and Lowes both carry it - I wouldn't use paper tape anymore, It's even creased for inside corners and is stronger than paper

http://www.adfors.com/us/building-products/wall-finishing-tapes/fibafuse-paperless-drywall-tape

 

[manwithtools]

FibaFuse

It is a 'glass mat drywall tape' (not nylon mesh) tape that you easily embed into the compound. HomeDepot and Lowes both carry it - I wouldn't use paper tape anymore, It's even creased for inside corners and is stronger than paper

http://www.adfors.com/us/building-products/wall-finishing-tapes/fibafuse-paperless-drywall-tape

I was going to mention this, but I don't have personal experience with it yet, so I hesitated to do so. Have you used it?

 

[Git]

Yes - works as advertised and I would never go back to mesh or paper tape.

Here is a pretty good video I found on youtube by HomeDepot