Selecting the Best Mini Split System

[Idle Serge]

Sorry to make a thread like this, as I know some of the info I am requesting has more than likely been repeated many time before.

I did a search and came across certain brands that should be considered and what not, however; I need to get further into detail about my application.

I have a rather conservative sized detached garage--18'X24' ~432sqft.

It will be insulated with R13 and I do plan on leaving the upper beams exposed (I know that's prob a no no in most cases) but it's a look preference I have.

I will run 2 ceiling fan inside the exposed beams to help push down some hot air while I'm in the shop. In addition, I am going to insulate along the insides of the roof (sorry for the use of the wrong terminology--I'm a complete noob to this).

In a nutshell the plans/accommodations my garage will have:

-Completely insulated with R13 from top to bottom
-16 ft wide garage door (has some insulation ratings but not the best)
-100amp panel box on it's own meter (NOT off the house)
-1 outlet for an occasional welder
-3 outlets on each west and east side wall
-4 outlets for the far wall
-3 ceiling outlets for lights plus 1 for garage door opener and 1 for both ceiling fans
-one for motion light out front

I want a unit that does both Heat and AC. Some of my main concerns are:

-Will/Should I pre-wire for this setup (are some units able to be plugged into an existing outlet or are they ALL require to be wired up to the Panel?)
-I want to keep the garage above freezing temps at all times since I don't want to have damaged liquids such as detailing supplies for example)
-We get a handful of single digit weather in the winter here in the SE part of WA
-Hardly see more then 100°F during the summer but 90s are common during the peak of summer

Since I plan on having it on most of the time--what SEER should I consider?

I'm asking for a hell of a lot here but I just don't know anything concrete about this topic.

The following are some of the units I have considered--again my main concerns are how are they wired up and will they be sufficient for my garage:

This ones really inexpensive--which isn't always a great sign
$625 9000BTU 14 SEER:
http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/aircon-9000-btu-ductless-split-heat-pump.php

Inverter Technology sounds very appealing
$850 12kBTU 19 SEER:
http://www.airconditioneroutlet.com/brands/senville/senville-leto-12000btu/

$1200 9000BTU 22 SEER:
http://www.kingersons.com/9000btuminisplitac-inverter.html

$650 9kBTU 14 SEER:
http://www.minisplitwarehouse.com/A...at_Pump_AC_A13CHEM4H4G09/p315964_9526459.aspx

$960 9kBTU 22 SEER
http://www.breezzone.com/heating-co...btu-22-seer-heat-pump-inverter-with-kit.html#

$750 9kBTU 16 SEER
http://www.bonterrahomeandgarden.com/16-seer-9-000-btu-toshiba-senville/

$820 9kBTU 16 SEER
http://shop.designerplumbing.com/store/PROD/Mini_Zone_1/SENVILLE06.html

They all seem to have an average 5 year warranty--should I consider any of these?

Everyone prob will hate me after this post Any and ALL info will be greatly appreciated.

 

[sands35]

What is the relative cost per BTU for gas, electric, propane, oil, etc. in your area?

Are you DIYing the install? Read up on the warranty. Some will void it if you are not licensed.

Personally, gas is about 1/2 the $/BTU of electric, so heat is Nat Gas and cooling will (eventually) be a mini-split.

As for outlets, more is better (to a point). If you run stationary power tools (table saw, band saw, etc.) 220 VAC outlets let you side step the GFCI requirements.

Outlets 49" off the floor lets you put a sheet of ply against the wall and still be able to use the outlet.

Think about an outlet on the ceiling or high on the wall for a retractable trouble light or two.

Air compressor?

Weld table? You will want more light and outlets near that.

As for the AC/Heat unit, you will need to read the instructions. Some are 2 wire 220, some are 110, some are 3 wire 220. Some have the evaporator power come from the condenser, some require a second outlet for the evaporator.

 

[BoostAddiction]

Why not look to the better brands? The savings from a brand name with good service and parts availability compared to the Chicom units (I assume that's where most of the ones you referenced are coming from) will be minimal, especially expressed over the life of the unit.

I've have good experience with Daikin and LG. Of course the leader, at least in volume, is probably Mitsubishi.

I'd look very hard at one of the major players before I decided to go with an off brand in an attempt to save a couple of hundred bucks.

Also, all the units are 9K. I assume you have decided that is optimum for your garage, and it's probably close. Did you do calculations to get to that number, or are you just guessing/assuming that is right for you? In my case, I am using a 24K unit, and got to that number without the benefit of being informed by a Manual J calculation. So far, it's worked well. But my shop is pretty well insulated (and about 800 sq ft).

Also, most of the units don't have any warranty support if they are user-installed. If that is important to you, I'd check the details on the unit you purchase to be sure.

 

[Idle Serge]

What is the relative cost per BTU for gas, electric, propane, oil, etc. in your area?

Are you DIYing the install? Read up on the warranty. Some will void it if you are not licensed.

Personally, gas is about 1/2 the $/BTU of electric, so heat is Nat Gas and cooling will (eventually) be a mini-split.

As for outlets, more is better (to a point). If you run stationary power tools (table saw, band saw, etc.) 220 VAC outlets let you side step the GFCI requirements.

Outlets 49" off the floor lets you put a sheet of ply against the wall and still be able to use the outlet.

Think about an outlet on the ceiling or high on the wall for a retractable trouble light or two.

Air compressor?

Weld table? You will want more light and outlets near that.

As for the AC/Heat unit, you will need to read the instructions. Some are 2 wire 220, some are 110, some are 3 wire 220. Some have the evaporator power come from the condenser, some require a second outlet for the evaporator.

Thanks for the thorough response SiR!

As far as the cost for Natural Gas (which we have at for our house but will need to run a line to the garage and set it up meaning higher cost to the total) and further information regarding that info--I do not know off the top of my head

in 2013 the Cents per Kilowatt-Hour in the state of WA was something like 8.82 on average for residential.

For the most part I was in fact intrigued to try and mount the unit on my own however; I was aware that a trained professional would have to be called in to do the HVAC stuff and I would also have help doing the wiring if they aren't simply hooked up to an existing outlet.

I won't have very many stationary tools--basically only my Air compressor (pictured below) and eventually a small welder and mini split.

Why not look to the better brands? The savings from a brand name with good service and parts availability compared to the Chicom units (I assume that's where most of the ones you referenced are coming from) will be minimal, especially expressed over the life of the unit.

I've have good experience with Daikin and LG. Of course the leader, at least in volume, is probably Mitsubishi.

I'd look very hard at one of the major players before I decided to go with an off brand in an attempt to save a couple of hundred bucks.

Also, all the units are 9K. I assume you have decided that is optimum for your garage, and it's probably close. Did you do calculations to get to that number, or are you just guessing/assuming that is right for you? In my case, I am using a 24K unit, and got to that number without the benefit of being informed by a Manual J calculation. So far, it's worked well. But my shop is pretty well insulated (and about 800 sq ft).

Also, most of the units don't have any warranty support if they are user-installed. If that is important to you, I'd check the details on the unit you purchase to be sure.

Thanks for the reply/suggestion!!

A few reasons I was searching for inexpensive units--this is my 1st home and I'm fairly positive I will grow out of it and want more space as I continue to expand my everyday life, I'm 24 now--currently it's my girlfriend of 6 years plus our cat and dog living together (my house is a mere 1000sqft home). Therefore; I feel I will need to find a bigger house plus a bigger shop in about 5-7yrs.

In other words, I want to get by with decent options but not go "balls out" on the renovation.

As far as BTU--those claim to cover an area of about 5-600sq ft but I think the 12k BTU would be ideal (only one was posted that had 12k BTU @ 850 bucks) Also this unit is by Senville/Toshiba and I was under the impression those were decent companies.


I am going to get a mini split system for out house which I will surely spend more money on but for the garage I really want something to work "OK" since I don't plan on keeping it 68° in the summer and 72° in the winter

 

[sevenzeronova]

The senville would be the best pick of the ones listed. As it is inverter driven and seems to be the only one that will operate at -15. What capacity it has at that temp is unknown.
How well it performs will be very dependent upon how tight an envelope the space is. Biggest heat/cool loads will be the overhead door.

 

[theoldwizard1]

You have to include Mitsubishi and Fujitsu.

 

[sevenzeronova]

You have to include Mitsubishi and Fujitsu.

These are by far the two best on the market.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Listen to the oldwizard on this one and remember, size matters.

 

[JakeKohl]

You have to include Mitsubishi and Fujitsu.

^THIS^

I might be inclined to skimp on name brand for a window unit that can be tossed in 10 minutes. However, I consider a mini-split a a permanent installation and would stick with a brand that has a good reputation. You really do need to look at Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, and I would add LG. I have two LG units that are 22.5 seer and have been really good. I had a support issue with the remote controls and LG resolved it quickly and sent me two new remotes quickly. Yes, they do cost more, but installation costs as much as the units themselves - do yourself a favor and get a unit that is less likely to need to be installed twice.

 

[Idle Serge]

The senville would be the best pick of the ones listed. As it is inverter driven and seems to be the only one that will operate at -15. What capacity it has at that temp is unknown.
How well it performs will be very dependent upon how tight an envelope the space is. Biggest heat/cool loads will be the overhead door.

I was feeling pretty good about that unit as well--thanks for chiming in SiR!

You have to include Mitsubishi and Fujitsu.

These are by far the two best on the market.

I did in fact came upon that statement several times while doing my research but I was under the impression that Midea, Friedrich, Goodman, Shinco, Senville, Klimaire, AirCon, YMGI, Pridiom, and Daikin were decent units...

Listen to the oldwizard on this one and remember, size matters.

^THIS^

I might be inclined to skimp on name brand for a window unit that can be tossed in 10 minutes. However, I consider a mini-split a a permanent installation and would stick with a brand that has a good reputation. You really do need to look at Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, and I would add LG. I have two LG units that are 22.5 seer and have been really good. I had a support issue with the remote controls and LG resolved it quickly and sent me two new remotes quickly. Yes, they do cost more, but installation costs as much as the units themselves - do yourself a favor and get a unit that is less likely to need to be installed twice.

That is very true--as I stated prior, for the house I was definitely considering a higher priced unit. However; I can't convince myself to spend the minimum of 1600 for a Mitsubishi unit which will only be a 9kBTU for this small garage.

I've learned that you have to pay to play--I may consider saving up for another year and just spend the funds towards the unit for the house

I just wanted to have the wiring done and out of the way before I go any further with the garage. But not knowing which unit to pick makes it difficult to pre-wire, since I'm fairly inclined when it comes to that.


Furthermore, are the sites I am searching the best places to find this mini splits? Any preferences you guys care to share?

All in all, thanks for your time Gents! I really appreciate it!

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Never heard of any on your list. Fujitsu or Mitsu for me, in that order.

Tommy

 

[Slednut]

Furthermore, are the sites I am searching the best places to find this mini splits? Any preferences you guys care to share?

All in all, thanks for your time Gents! I really appreciate it!

I purchased my Mitsubishi Mini split E series from here. http://ecomfort.com/

I was in a hurry, I just pre-wired a 220 20 amp circuit for the outside unit and used the below to run the line sets, drain and power/communication wire to the inside units on the outside of the building (I had a dual system). The inside units were wired to the outside unit only.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008JFBN9A/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Idle Serge]

Never heard of any on your list. Fujitsu or Mitsu for me, in that order.

Tommy

Looks like I need to double my budget :laugh:

Thanks for the recommendations Mr. Tommy!

I purchased my Mitsubishi Mini split E series from here. http://ecomfort.com/

I was in a hurry, I just pre-wired a 220 20 amp circuit for the outside unit and used the below to run the line sets, drain and power/communication wire to the inside units on the outside of the building (I had a dual system). The inside units were wired to the outside unit only.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008JFBN9A/?tag=atomicindus08-20

That clears it up some! Even tho it should more than likely have been common sense for the experienced

I will definitely get the line cover set! Awesome finish to had everything Thanks for your time Mr. Seldnut!

 

[pseudorealityx]

LG and Daiken are the other 2 big ones that also have commercial applications. IE... they know what they're doing.

 

[Idle Serge]

LG and Daiken are the other 2 big ones that also have commercial applications. IE... they know what they're doing.

I will be exploring all of these recommended brands--thanks boss!

 

[JakeKohl]

I bought from https://www.acwholesalers.com/ and had a good experience.

 

[Idle Serge]

I bought from https://www.acwholesalers.com/ and had a good experience.

Thank you Mr. Kohl!

 

[Ohmthis]

Idle, I understand your concern with cost of a more quality unit. If you are not in a rush, decide on a better unit (Mitsubishi, fujitsu, daikin, and LG) go and find the installation manual and you'd know what would be required for your electric.
How far away is your house from the garage? If it were me I'd look into a hanging heater and some type of window ac unit. You can take those with you when you leave. Up front cost may be just a bit more, but it is not permanent.

 

[Idle Serge]

Idle, I understand your concern with cost of a more quality unit. If you are not in a rush, decide on a better unit (Mitsubishi, fujitsu, daikin, and LG) go and find the installation manual and you'd know what would be required for your electric.
How far away is your house from the garage? If it were me I'd look into a hanging heater and some type of window ac unit. You can take those with you when you leave. Up front cost may be just a bit more, but it is not permanent.

Mr. Ohmthis--thanks for chiming in SiR!

I'm somewhat in a rush based upon the fact that I'm getting ready to do my wiring followed by insulation and drywall, therefore; I would like to pre wire to have this install as breezy as possible

He garage is about 30ft away from the house--maybe I should consider getting a multi-zone unit and running one zone at the back of the house and the other to the garage? I'm aware some units have up to a 50ft line kit.

The downside with that, is I don't think the back of the house is the most idea part to have the mini split for the home :/

Just to give you an idea--this is and older pic right before we started wrking on the house late fall of last year; the distance from the house (visual):



Then coming into the back mud room--essentially this room is the closest wall to the garage therefore; the primary mini split unit would have to go on this wall: (pic during out reno as well )



Which branches off into the kitchen:



And finally into the living room: (which I feel would be the best spot for the main unit, however to utilize the multi zone units, it would be too far away from the garage)






Overall, I'm not sure if I could pull off getting a multi zone unit and making it wrk for the house and garage all in one--then again I'm no expert...

 

[Ohmthis]

Idle, nice place, my wife would be green with your backsplash. As close as you you could run a NG line for a hanging heater and put a window unit in. When you are moving you can take tnose with you. If this doesnt sound good wait a year and double your money for a better minisplit. I found some mitsubishi in the $1600 range.

 

[sevenzeronova]

Mxz series mitisubishi outdoor units come in different sizes from 2 to 8 indoor heads.
Max refrigerant line length to each indoor is average 82 feet. Proper placement of the condenser can usually cover most homes and garage.

Example of a 3:1 system.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...4QFjAA&usg=AFQjCNE8wfDOAZktODwdlzZ1Hgcvde6zNQ

 

[lmandell1960]

installed a madea in my house three years ago,two years of pure misery. finally got a 3/4 refund and installed a fugitsu last year, has run flawlessly through the winter keeping my 700 sq foot house very warm.
madea-$1700
fugitsu-$3800
you get what you pay for

 

[Jackfre]

If you go for multis, be aware that once you go past two evaps the prices can jump. Actually, the price jump is more from the 24 to the 36 kbtu evap. Some of the current 24's allow 3 Evaps. Anyway, I installed a 24 dual (16.5 seer) upstairs and a 25 seer 12 downstairs. For me the separation was best as I ran the 12 downstairs all winter but never turned on the upstairs. I got the dual and single for about the same cost as the 36 triple would have cost and the way I run them this is much more efficient. Carefully check each manuf specs by model. It can be a challenge.

 

[Rosco]

Went through the same issue. A lot to choose from. I ended up saving for a while longer and buying the mitsubishi. After all of the prep and install work i am glad i did. The best thing is that it is so quiet and efficient.

 

[Idle Serge]

Idle, nice place, my wife would be green with your backsplash. As close as you you could run a NG line for a hanging heater and put a window unit in. When you are moving you can take tnose with you. If this doesnt sound good wait a year and double your money for a better minisplit. I found some mitsubishi in the $1600 range.

Thank you SiR!

I'm a bit overwhelmed here I really need to make a decision soon

Mxz series mitisubishi outdoor units come in different sizes from 2 to 8 indoor heads.
Max refrigerant line length to each indoor is average 82 feet. Proper placement of the condenser can usually cover most homes and garage.

Example of a 3:1 system.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...4QFjAA&usg=AFQjCNE8wfDOAZktODwdlzZ1Hgcvde6zNQ

Thank you for sharing that info Mr. 07Nova!

A 3:1 would be nice--main in Mudroom and branched off: one to the garage and the other into the living room.

installed a madea in my house three years ago,two years of pure misery. finally got a 3/4 refund and installed a fugitsu last year, has run flawlessly through the winter keeping my 700 sq foot house very warm.
madea-$1700
fugitsu-$3800
you get what you pay for

"Gotta Pay to Play" man have I heard that before lol I learned that when wrking on my cars

Some of the units I listed have a good sells pitch but I can't find too many reviews on a lot of em.

If you go for multis, be aware that once you go past two evaps the prices can jump. Actually, the price jump is more from the 24 to the 36 kbtu evap. Some of the current 24's allow 3 Evaps. Anyway, I installed a 24 dual (16.5 seer) upstairs and a 25 seer 12 downstairs. For me the separation was best as I ran the 12 downstairs all winter but never turned on the upstairs. I got the dual and single for about the same cost as the 36 triple would have cost and the way I run them this is much more efficient. Carefully check each manuf specs by model. It can be a challenge.

I noticed that when pricing them out--I almost figured I get a dual unit for the house and a cheap one for the garage since I won't spend most of my time in there.

Or maybe I should just get a dual unit and put the main in the mudroom and the other to the garage?? And if we feel the living room isn't getting cool enough we'll spend the 3-500 bucks on a reputable portable AC unit?

Went through the same issue. A lot to choose from. I ended up saving for a while longer and buying the mitsubishi. After all of the prep and install work i am glad i did. The best thing is that it is so quiet and efficient.

I hear ya

We have heat for the house (Natural Gas) so ANOTHER option would be buying an AC unit ONLY for the house and another unit that has a heat pump for the garage...overwhelmed to say the least lol

 

[cagullett1]

No one has mentioned the Pioneer unit on Amazon. It has pretty good reviews and can be had for a very reasonable price. Thoughts?

 

[jonathan75]

No one has mentioned the Pioneer unit on Amazon. It has pretty good reviews and can be had for a very reasonable price. Thoughts?

Maybe it is cheaper because it is sponsered by Pepsi Cola. Worth looking into.

Edit:
Thank you cagullett, the more I read the more excited I am getting. Good find! But I am interested in some feedback from some GJ members.

HighSeer from Florida also sells it on eBay and you can get a discount on the mounting kit. If Amazon charges tax for your State eBay may be the better option.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12000-BTU-1...-Conditioner-Heat-Pump-Full-Kit-/291045075892

 

[cagullett1]

Maybe it is cheaper because it is sponsered by Pepsi Cola. Worth looking into.

Edit:
Thank you cagullett, the more I read the more excited I am getting. Good find! But I am interested in some feedback from some GJ members.

HighSeer from Florida also sells it on eBay and you can get a free mounting kit. If Amazon charges tax for your State eBay may be the better option.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12000-BTU-1...-Conditioner-Heat-Pump-Full-Kit-/291045075892

I found a couple threads on it a few months back, but not much. Good find on ebay! I hate paying sales tax through Amazon.

 

[Idle Serge]

Recently another GJ member posted his experience with this DIY Mini Split system which ideally is exactly what I was looking for--pre charged, simple 115V everyday household plug in and essentially plug and play!

Did a little homework:

http://www.friedrich.com/products/residential/window/breeze/model-specifications

There seems to only be 2 different models as of now--this are the best priced as well; Amazon has the smaller model listed but price is inflated by 700 bucks.

http://www.totalhomesupply.com/Friedrich-Breeze-DIY-Mini-Split-s/19075.htm


I've shifted gears tho--I need AC for my house ASAP.

How does everyone (reading this of course) feel about those portable AC? I can't seem to find anything that is energy star compliant, so I'm somewhat straying away from them.



Just an idea for the garage in the near future:

It does both heat and AC

https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Ai...tId=cat12515&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=49607:Yes

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LG-14-000-B...950287?pt=Air_Conditioner&hash=item565927878f

 

[smokey0810]

I've got a 9K BTU Pioneer AC/Heat mini split that I installed in our master bedroom. Reviews on Amazon were great, and got it installed in about 5-6 hrs with electrical done myself.

 

[Idle Serge]

I've got a 9K BTU Pioneer AC/Heat mini split that I installed in our master bedroom. Reviews on Amazon were great, and got it installed in about 5-6 hrs with electrical done myself.

Thanks for chiming in! I don't think I can do the electrical myself




But in other news--I just placed my order on the Friedrich BR1224W3A 24000 BTU. I opted to go with the bigger unit based upon the fact that I'm going to try and keep most of the house cooled down (about 700sqft of open space) and as you've all stated; size matters.

Definitely then I wanted to spend but in this case I would be saving loads of cash on labor about 1k on HVAC plus the electrician.

I will do a follow up when it's all set in and ready.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[cagullett1]

This might be a REALLY stupid question, so don't kill me for asking, but is there any way to run the drain in the attic, then down the wall and outside? I'm wanting to mount the inside unit on an interior wall, and the attic is located above the room I want to mount it. Would I be making a completely stupid move by trying to mount the unit high on the wall, and run the lines up into the attic, through the attic, to the exterior wall? The drain line is the only one that makes me concerned about doing this with. My only other alternative I can think of that will get the drain sloping down is by cutting drywall and running the line perpendicular through the studs until I reach the exterior wall. Thoughts?

 

[sevenzeronova]

Can do it. Need to add a mini split condensate pump at the drain and pump it to the pvc I line you run in th attic.

 

[cspcrx]

They also have units that are meant to be installed in the ceiling so those must drain out through the attic.

 

[sevenzeronova]

They also have units that are meant to be installed in the ceiling so those must drain out through the attic.

They have built in pumps. They can only pump 18" of height though.

 

[cagullett1]

They have built in pumps. They can only pump 18" of height though.

Any of them as cheap as the 12k unit Pioneer makes selling on Amazon for $660?

 

[cspcrx]

Ceiling units are much more than the wall units.

 

[sevenzeronova]

Ceiling units are much more than the wall units.

Yes they are about triple.

 

[Idle Serge]

Anyone else recommend a certain product for the line cover sets besides Airtec Fortress and DiversiTech SpeediChannel ?

3.5" big enough or should I consider the 4.5"?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008JFIN02/?tag=atomicindus08-20

This one is 3" wide

http://www.totalhomesupply.com/Spee...-Split-Line-Set-Cove-p/diversitech-single.htm

 

[jonathan75]

Anyone else recommend a certain product for the line cover sets besides Airtec Fortress and DiversiTech SpeediChannel ?

3.5" big enough or should I consider the 4.5"?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008JFIN02/?tag=atomicindus08-20

This one is 3" wide

http://www.totalhomesupply.com/Spee...-Split-Line-Set-Cove-p/diversitech-single.htm

I got plastic gutter down spout for mine. It is cheap and looks good.