Selling R12?

[Sevenhills1952]

Years ago I bought a 30# tank of R12 freon, never used it, it's still in a sealed box. I have three 70s cars that uses R12. I always thought if the time comes on those cars I would convert them to R134.
Should I sell the R12? Is it ok to ship? Thanks.

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[BajaScout]

I am thinking that may be illegal now. I would double check.


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[Sevenhills1952]

Where would I check?

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[BajaScout]

https://www.epa.gov/section608/questions-and-answers-about-refrigerant-sales-restriction


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[brewchief]

IIRC the buyer needs to have an epa card, I sold an almost full tank of 12 about 5 years ago, guy had an add on craigslist as a buyer, we weighed it and I got 10$ a pound, guy was legit and had no problem showing epa card and providing a receipt. Selling a single tank wouldn't really bother me if the buyer had a card or not, a small amount like that isn't exactly going to attract attention.

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[SGKent]

My understanding is that the buyer and seller both need EPA cards, but I think you could probably get away with it as long as the buyer is Section 609 certified and has a card - and you bought it before 609 certs were required for R12.

 

[86turbodsl]

The reality is, nobody checks. I went to an auction, there was a jug of R12, after the ban. I told the auctioneer the buyer needed a 609 card to be legal. I figured since i had a 609, i could get it cheap. They sold it without even asking to the highest bidder and never checked for a card. They don't care.

 

[Showkey]

^^^^^^^^Speaking of Reality..........go to any old car swap meet( today) , you will find literally dozens of R12 is every known container size.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

You do not need to be certified to sell r12, only to buy it, handle it, or service MVACs that use it. The seller is required to confirm the buyer is EPA 609 certified. Ebay and Craigslist do nothing to enforce it.

Shipping it is a different issue altogether. The USPS will ship it by ground, but will require proof that the buyer is commercial and has the proper EPA certification. You then must provide the proper packaging, labeling and paperwork.


Tommy

 

[threeputt]

Years ago I bought a 30# tank of R12 freon, never used it, it's still in a sealed box. I have three 70s cars that uses R12. I always thought if the time comes on those cars I would convert them to R134.
Should I sell the R12? Is it ok to ship? Thanks.

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I would keep it if you got those older cars. The 134 will never cool like the R 12. I wish I could find a few cans as I still have an older vehicle that uses it. I still have the MACS card from 1993

 

[metlmunchr]

Something not a lot of people realize, and I'd imagine even fewer actually complied with is the following..........

You were in the business prior to the restrictions on 12. At that time, 12 sold in quantity for about 55 cents/lb. So, you buy a couple thousand pounds and put it in stock.

But, the primary reason for the price increase post regulation was an annually increasing tax on 12. And if you read the actual law, you were required to report any 12 in stock yearly, and pay additional tax on all inventory.

So, you bought it for 55 cents. If the first increment of tax was $1/lb and you still had 1800# in stock, you owed uncle sam $1800. Next increment was another buck, and you still had 1500# in stock, you owed your uncle another $1500. And so on until the full tax was applied. Pounds in stock times current tax rate minus previously paid tax on that number of pounds.

Any bets on how many small business owners complied with that? I know I never discussed the issue with anyone who paid a cent on any 12 they had in stock.

 

[Sevenhills1952]

Something not a lot of people realize, and I'd imagine even fewer actually complied with is the following..........

You were in the business prior to the restrictions on 12. At that time, 12 sold in quantity for about 55 cents/lb. So, you buy a couple thousand pounds and put it in stock.

But, the primary reason for the price increase post regulation was an annually increasing tax on 12. And if you read the actual law, you were required to report any 12 in stock yearly, and pay additional tax on all inventory.

So, you bought it for 55 cents. If the first increment of tax was $1/lb and you still had 1800# in stock, you owed uncle sam $1800. Next increment was another buck, and you still had 1500# in stock, you owed your uncle another $1500. And so on until the full tax was applied. Pounds in stock times current tax rate minus previously paid tax on that number of pounds.

Any bets on how many small business owners complied with that? I know I never discussed the issue with anyone who paid a cent on any 12 they had in stock.

How does that work on things worthless or going down in price. How does that work if someone pays $500 for a project car, puts 1000 hours and $5000 in it, now it's worth $30k. Is it taxed on $30k? ...just curious.

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[LS6 Tommy]

How does that work if someone pays $500 for a project car, puts 1000 hours and $5000 in it, now it's worth $30k. Is it taxed on $30k? ...just curious.

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That is exactly how it works. The buyer pays sales tax on the selling price.

The whole point of the R12 tax was to deter hoarding.

Tommy

 

[Sevenhills1952]

That is exactly how it works. The buyer pays sales tax on the selling price.



The whole point of the R12 tax was to deter hoarding.



Tommy

Hoarding of R12 or hoarding in general. I can't understand that since how could that be different than hoarding fine art, antiques, stamps, coins, gold, etc.

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[Falcon67]

How does that work on things worthless or going down in price. How does that work if someone pays $500 for a project car, puts 1000 hours and $5000 in it, now it's worth $30k. Is it taxed on $30k? ...just curious.

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Overhauling done cars taxed - AFAIK - at equivalent worth. IRS get's its cut. You can't transfer a title in Texas without the buyer paying 6.25% sales tax. And if it's less than 25 years old, they will look up the Presumptive Value and tax you on that unless you bought from a registered dealer, OR you have it appraised by a certified appraiser AND show the receipt for said appraisal. The good old days of buying a 10 year old car from a private seller for "$500" are out the window.

Private sales of materials - that would be a different story all together.

 

[Showkey]

Two of 15 choices for R12 a large swap meet this weekend. Several had large quantities. No extra charge for the dust. The $25 a can was the highest prices.........needless to say they were not selling.







Guarantee they did not pay an annual tax on the stock pile......

 

[Jason280]

Is there still really much of a market for R12? I see it for sale occasionally in the local forums...

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

If you have 3 cars that use R-12, I’dkeep the R-12. I had an older car that I had converted to R-134 by a well regarded shop, all new hoses, compressor, condenser and it just never cooled worth a damn. It got cool, never cold.

But regardless, there’s like zero actual enforcement if you want to sell it.

 

[nsula_country]

I'll give you $100.

CT

 

[wildbill23c]

If you have 3 cars that use R-12, I’dkeep the R-12. I had an older car that I had converted to R-134 by a well regarded shop, all new hoses, compressor, condenser and it just never cooled worth a damn. It got cool, never cold.

But regardless, there’s like zero actual enforcement if you want to sell it.

If you are private selling it to a private buyer I don't think they would know except now they do because you posted it on a forum HAHA!!!! Anyhow, your buyer should know to track the amount of refrigerant and keep a log of the usage of it...many don't do that either? I haven't had to deal with R12, but with the R134A I have a binder I track all the AC systems I've done with the amount of refrigerant I've used.

Buying you are supposed to have a 609 certificate, easy to get the test is easy and you can do it online and its a lifetime certificate, I took mine through EPA Online: https://www.epatest.com/609/openbook. I think it was like $30 for the certificate...I have the full size certificate and I copied and shrunk it down and keep a copy in my wallet that is about the size of a credit card. The 609 is an open book test. I haven't taken the 608 yet I need to but haven't, its far more involved and if I recall 3 different certification levels on it based upon the type of refrigeration units you would be working on. The 609 certification is for vehicles the 608 is appliance and commercial refrigeration.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

If it stays as hot as it has been, I'd pay a pretty penny for legit R12 to go in the A/C of my Geo Metro!

 

[anythingyoucanimagine]

Years ago I bought a 30# tank of R12 freon, never used it, it's still in a sealed box. I have three 70s cars that uses R12. I always thought if the time comes on those cars I would convert them to R134.
Should I sell the R12? Is it ok to ship? Thanks.

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I say hang onto it and don't sell. Just my $0.02...


FYI, I recently came into a lot of refrigerant. (about 15 various 30# tanks) Selling local via private sale was a pain. Prices vary wildly and be prepared to get jerked around. I had legit/licensed guys telling me they would do me a favor and take it because it's illegal for me to own... Some told me it was illegal to sell, etc.

You can always hang onto it and use it for trade/barter later. If you ever want to convert over to 134a I'm sure you could find a restoration shop who would take that r12 in trade for most/all of the conversion. Tank is worth at most $1k. Probably closer to $750. Condenser is going to be $200, compressor will be in the $200 range, dryer, seals, valves, hoses, etc. will be another maybe $300.

I kept all the good stuff and bartered with the rest.