Separating power and data (ethernet) lines

[cobragrover]

I'm running power underground to my garage. The power lines are 18 inches down in conduit and the ethernet line is going in the same trench only about 3-4 inches down in pvc conduit. The only way I know of to separate the lines coming out of the ground is to 45 the ethernet over right before I get to the wall. That should separate the power and data lines by a foot or so. Is this how most do it or is there a better way?

 

[Kaizen]

Why the separation? Isn’t the shielding in cables plus both conduits enough? I’m planning on same depth for both of mine and entering in the same fashion with pull boxes on the outside. I’m running cat5 or 6 only. No tv cable


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[Norcal]

Your only burying the data line a few inches down? I would rethink that as that shallow is asking for trouble if I read the post right.

 

[mike93lx]

Why the separation? Isn’t the shielding in cables plus both conduits enough? I’m planning on same depth for both of mine and entering in the same fashion with pull boxes on the outside. I’m running cat5 or 6 only. No tv cable


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Not all cables are shielded and pvc conduit won't do anything to prevent interference.

To the OP, keep them separated when possible. What you listed sounds fine.

Have you considered fiber instead of CAT5/6?

 

[Chucktin]

Fiber? You've got my attention. What does it take to do a home install of fiber? I've heard horror storys about fiber.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Why the separation? Isn’t the shielding in cables plus both conduits enough? I’m planning on same depth for both of mine and entering in the same fashion with pull boxes on the outside. I’m running cat5 or 6 only. No tv cable


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Only if the OP uses shielded/STP or FTP ethernet cabling. Not all ethernet cabling is shielded. Non shielded cabling is UTP. Underground rated ethernet cabling is made in UTP, STP, and FTP types.

Also, the conduit does not provide any kind of shielding from interference.

Fiber? You've got my attention. What does it take to do a home install of fiber? I've heard horror stories about fiber.

If you cannot terminate the fiber, then you would need to buy preterminated fiber and have conduit large enough to fit the terminations. you will also need media converters on both ends.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003AVRLZI/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Chucktin]

I should study up on fiber and the mechanics of installing the stuff.
But there's no sign of fiber to the house around here.

 

[mike93lx]

I should study up on fiber and the mechanics of installing the stuff.
But there's no sign of fiber to the house around here.

Fiber to the house doesn't matter. You would be creating a local network with it, replacing the CAT5/6. Tons of bandwidth, future resistant and no interference issues

 

[Kaizen]

Not all cables are shielded and pvc conduit won't do anything to prevent interference.



To the OP, keep them separated when possible. What you listed sounds fine.



Have you considered fiber instead of CAT5/6?

I used direct bury cat6 in conduit. Maybe that is why I didn’t have any issues. That was a 100 foot run and conduit right next to each other. Ran my security cams so had a good amount of data transmitting. Did **** to work with.


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[HenryAZ]

If you cannot terminate the fiber, then you would need to buy preterminated fiber and have conduit large enough to fit the terminations. you will also need media converters on both ends.

You can also use an 8 port switch with SFP fiber uplink ports. This would serve as the media converters and a handy switch at each end.

 

[larry4406]

How wide is the trench you are digging? Push power to one side and communications to the other.

I recently did this. The free mini-x I borrowed had a 24” wide bucket.

Will I gain anything? I don’t know.

 

[cobragrover]

I'm probably going to use direct burial shielded cat5 or 6. I'm putting it in conduit just for protection from shovels and such. Need to find some direct burial shielded cable. I didn't even consider fiber. Sounds like it might be a little more complicated. Just going to be a few cameras, one or two out and a couple inside. The trench is only spade width.

 

[Innovate1]

If I understand to OP correctly there will be about 12" between the two runs. That's about the minimum I would want and as others have stated, the shallow depth of the data is asking for trouble. I would probably run another trench for the data.

On the 45 offset that will work. If the cables come a bit closer, or even a lot closer in spots it isn't nearly as big of issue as if they run parallel for long distances.

 

[dadz34]

If you have clear line of sight, wireless is will likely be your most cost effective solution. Fiber is way too expensive (fiber, fittings, taps, etc.) and direct burial cable is high dollar also. Sure, if you have a big trench open already, you can install conduit and run CAT5/6e cabling, but remember your loop limit is 100 meters. If you want an easier way, and most likely less expensive by the time you complete the project, go check out the products from ubnt.com. They are super easy to mount, configure and get up & running.

there are plenty of YouTube videos on the Ubiquity products for setup, config, etc.

 

[slow]

other benefit of Fiber is lightning, the low voltage network doesn't become a way to destroy hardware in both buildings if either is struck.

I am concerned with that in FL, but you may not be with no location listed.

 

[dcg9381]

To be honest, I've seen CAT5 fried (my home) simply from the induction caused by a near-by lightening strike. It fried at the outlet, so was relatively easy to replace once found.

That being said, I'm pretty sure I'll NEVER do fiber. The accessories necessary for normalizing it on a network, tools, and the limited number of people that can work on it - it's not going to be an option in my mind..

Shielded CAT5,6, etc - that's is what I'll be using. And if you look at how close this stuff is to wire interference (look in the attic in any home - cat5 and romex all over the place) - mostly non-shielded - I just don't think it's going to be an issue in most use cases.

I've got a 250 run that may be common to an electrical main (it's not in yet). I'll run them side by side, likely 2 parallel Cat5e or Cat6 wires (shielded) in conduit.

The alternative I'm using right now is ubiquiti nanostation - not as fast, but if your goal is just putting moderate levels of internet in the garage without trenching, sure works pretty well..

 

[ard]

i would absolutely NOT run the data at '3-4 inches' below the surface (!!)

1. Put in an extra, large conduit- in case you need it.

2. Put the electric at the bottom- run the data 6 inches up. You will be fine.

 

[larry4406]

i would absolutely NOT run the data at '3-4 inches' below the surface (!!)

1. Put in an extra, large conduit- in case you need it.

2. Put the electric at the bottom- run the data 6 inches up. You will be fine.

Comcast, Verizon, and Cox do that all the time on my job. As soon as the fresh sod is laid, they roll it back like carpet, throw the wire down, and then reroll the sod. UFB.

 

[Bluearmflames]

I think you may be overthinking the situation. EM fields are a real problem in industrial environments that use a lot of phase modulation devices. At home not so much. Throw them both in the trench and try to get the most separation.

 

[ard]

Comcast, Verizon, and Cox do that all the time on my job. As soon as the fresh sod is laid, they roll it back like carpet, throw the wire down, and then reroll the sod. UFB.

Im sure they do.

OP- if you want to follow tract home standards, have at it.....

 

[alfredeneuman]

Comcast, Verizon, and Cox do that all the time on my job. As soon as the fresh sod is laid, they roll it back like carpet, throw the wire down, and then reroll the sod. UFB.

Utilities are exempt from the NEC.
Private individuals aren't

The mininum cover requirements for directly buried data cables is 24"
If PVC conduit is used 18". Rigid and intermediate metal, 6"

 

[slimpickins]

If you want to go fibre to the garage and cat 5 or cat 6 at each end, you need something like these - one at each end:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NPNBL8V/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyRUJPMkhOTFVRTTVDJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzM5MjA0MlZYTExXUE9GQVFHQyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMjU3MDg0VVY5OTFSOTlMSDg1JndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsMiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

And then buy a cable in the appropriate length. ie:
https://www.amazon.com/Meter-Multimode-Duplex-Fiber-Optic/dp/B005518QS2/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3UQGRCF7MBU6Z&keywords=150%2Bft%2Bfiber%2Boptic%2Bcable&qid=1567575641&s=gateway&sprefix=150ft%2Bfibre%2B%2Caps%2C198&sr=8-3&th=1

Buy the cable longer than you need and then coil the excess in a 16" (or so) circle. You cannot make sharp bends in fibre cables. They are somewhat fragile! Handle with care. (Google fibre slack box for solutions to protect excess fibre cable- then build your own)

Cheers.

 

[HenryAZ]

other benefit of Fiber is lighting, the low voltage network doesn't become a way to destroy hardware in both buildings if either is struck.

This is spot on. Connecting two separate buildings with copper can easily lead to network equipment damage during a surge, due to the different ground potentials of the two buildings. Fiber, or wireless point-to-point, eliminates the surge issue damage.

 

[aunsafe2015]

This is spot on. Connecting two separate buildings with copper can easily lead to network equipment damage during a surge, due to the different ground potentials of the two buildings. Fiber, or wireless point-to-point, eliminates the surge issue damage.

Can you terminate fiber with an end that is equivalent to standard Ethernet RJ-45, or do you have to do something special to actually get a fiber line hooked to to a router or wall jack?

 

[mike93lx]

Can you terminate fiber with an end that is equivalent to standard Ethernet RJ-45, or do you have to do something special to actually get a fiber line hooked to to a router or wall jack?

You need a converter. Some have been linked in this very thread

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Can you terminate fiber with an end that is equivalent to standard Ethernet RJ-45, or do you have to do something special to actually get a fiber line hooked to to a router or wall jack?

Fiber transmits light

Copper ethernet with RJ45s transmits electrical signals.

You have to use a converter.

 

[cobragrover]

Slimpickins, the cable you linked looks like it couldn't go into conduit underground because I saw some indoor/outdoor cable on the same amazon page. Also, what's the difference between OM1, OM3, OM4, and all the different colors? What diameter conduit do you need for the ends to pass through? Sorry, a lot of questions.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Slimpickins, the cable you linked looks like it couldn't go into conduit underground because I saw some indoor/outdoor cable on the same amazon page. Also, what's the difference between OM1, OM3, OM4, and all the different colors? What diameter conduit do you need for the ends to pass through? Sorry, a lot of questions.

The difference between the types is core size and distance they can go.

OM1 is old style 62.5/125m

OM3 and OM4 is 50/125m and is the newer type.

Whatever type you go with, you need the same type for patch cords and the SFP module needs to be compatible

 

[yatg]

Also be aware the fibre connectors come in different flavors. Mostly these days they are SC or LC. Make sure your converters and cables match.

 

[slimpickins]

Slimpickins, the cable you linked looks like it couldn't go into conduit underground because I saw some indoor/outdoor cable on the same amazon page. Also, what's the difference between OM1, OM3, OM4, and all the different colors? What diameter conduit do you need for the ends to pass through? Sorry, a lot of questions.

Cobra,
Not sure why you say it looks like it can't go into conduit. Absolutely it can. If you're thinking the end connectors are too big, the pics are deceiving. The two sides of the LC duplex connector are 0.25 inch center to center spacing. And the whole connector is about the same size as a standard cat 5/6e connector. But they are longer. Also you need to use care when pulling fibre. Here's a brochure from Panduit that gives some specs and installation guidelines: http://www.panduit.com/heiler/SpecificationSheets/D-FBSP13--WW-ENG-LCFiberOpticCont-W.pdf

Multimode fibre is thicker and has greater bandwidth. If you look at the cables on the page I linked, you'll see a pair of numbers in brackets i.e. (9/125) or (50/125). The first number is the fibre diameter in microns and the second number is the ferule size in microns. For the LC connector, standard ferule size is 125 microns or 1.25mm. There is however a big difference between 9 micron fibre (singlemode) and 50 micron fibre (multimode). If you want a history lesson on fibre and info on the finer details of all things fibre check this Fibre Optic Association (FOA) page https://www.thefoa.org/tech/connID.htm

Instead of the convertor I suggested above, you could buy a switch that has a fibre port (called an SFP slot) into which you can plug a GBIC connector that matches the type of fibre cable you want to use. These are interchangeable within the limits of the switch you are using.
https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-52-Port-Gigabit-Ethernet-Managed/dp/B071D7TK1Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=network%2Bswitch%2Bwith%2Bfiber&qid=1567752194&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzNTZUUzVKQVVPMVVXJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMjU2OTAwUFpJWlg5RTlTU0VCJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3NTIwNTMxUFFMNzVEMUlEMFdBJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

There is a dizzying array of GBICs at Amazon or Newegg to match any cable you decide to use. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=gbic&i=electronics&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

Send me a PM if you have some specific questions.

Cheers!

 

[cobragrover]

PM sent with some questions but I thought of another. Do I enter the house and garage with an LB or should I use a termination box something like this? https://fibertronics.com/4-adapter-slot-4-splice-termination-box-2-ports

 

[mike93lx]

You aren't terminating if you use pre-made cables. Just go in with an LB and plug the fiber line right into the switch

 

[slimpickins]

PM sent with some questions but I thought of another. Do I enter the house and garage with an LB or should I use a termination box something like this? https://fibertronics.com/4-adapter-slot-4-splice-termination-box-2-ports

I'll check the PM later tonight and respond to your questions, but for now no, an LB fitting is a NO-NO and is asking for trouble. If someone pulls on the cable, it WILL be damaged at the 90 degree bend. You need to comply with the cable specs which specify minimum radius bends for installation and final install minimum radius (called dynamic and static radii). See this installation guide https://www.fiberoptics4sale.com/blogs/archive-posts/95038854-fiber-optic-cable-installation-guidelines for a good discussion. Typical installation radius is 20-25 times cable diameter (outer jacket) and static radius is typically 15 to 20 times cable dia. but this varies by cable and manufacturer. There are also specs for maximum pull tension. These are strict guidelines and the fibre can be degraded or destroyed for failing to observe them even momentarily during install. When you get your cable, look up the specs for it which should tell you this information.

For a short run like you are doing, you probably won't have too many issues, but you still need to be careful with the cable. When you lay your conduit try to have as straight a run as possible without corners. Treat the cable like fine china -- don't step on it, throw it around, drop it or set anything on top of cable that is lying on the floor while you are installing it. Once installed, it should be fairly inaccessible so people don't mistreat it or cinch a zip tie on it, or hang a hanger on it in a laundry room or something.

You aren't terminating if you use pre-made cables. Just go in with an LB and plug the fiber line right into the switch

No, see my response above. An LB is NOT suitable for fibre. You're asking for trouble. It will work until someone accidentally or deliberately pulls on the cable around the 90 degree bend in the LB. Bending a fibre cable in a shorter radius than its specs - even momentarily - will damage (degrade the signal) or destroy the cable. (plastic fibre can be kinked inside the outer cable, and glass fibre can be broken.)

Cheers!

 

[cobragrover]

I may have the wrong idea about them in my mind but I was thinking a termination box would be where you switch from fiber optic to cat5 or 6 and then inside the house/garage. Now that I think about it it has to transition from fiber to cat5/6 at the converter. Not sure what a termination box does. Need more research!

 

[mike93lx]

There must be a way to protect the wire in the LB. Fiber comes into my house without any protection or special sweeps.

 

[mike93lx]

I may have the wrong idea about them in my mind but I was thinking a termination box would be where you switch from fiber optic to cat5 or 6 and then inside the house/garage. Now that I think about it it has to transition from fiber to cat5/6 at the converter. Not sure what a termination box does. Need more research!

I think those are for the cable company. My Fios box has something that looks similar to that, it's just inside the house.

 

[slimpickins]

I may have the wrong idea about them in my mind but I was thinking a termination box would be where you switch from fiber optic to cat5 or 6 and then inside the house/garage. Now that I think about it it has to transition from fiber to cat5/6 at the converter. Not sure what a termination box does. Need more research!

A fibre termination box is where multi core cables (4, 8, 12 ... 48 ++ fibres in one cable) are terminated and broken out to individual fibre strands for distribution. Multi-core cables do not have connectors for the whole cable. Each strand must be broken out, and terminated separately. Typical use is in medium to large offices and data centers, and in fibre distribution networks by local service providers. (Or in high end "geek" installations! )

The fibre is usually not converted to copper until it is inside a building. There is also a security issue with converting to Cat5/6 in an exterior box as it is harder to hack into a fibre than a Cat 5/6 cable. That being said, it is possible, but keep in mind that now you have to supply power to the convertor/transceiver and the box has to be big enough to hold the device as well. So now you are feeding power back out to this box, with potential moisture problems, and a power (albeit LV) cable next to your data cable, etc. Yuck! Just run the fibre into the house through a conduit and make sure it has support and doesn't get bent.

There must be a way to protect the wire in the LB. Fiber comes into my house without any protection or special sweeps.

Without ANY protection?????
There are special small radius cables which I haven't used. (I think they are quite expensive.) Or the installers are relying on the low risk that someone is not going to pull on the cable. Then if it breaks they charge you to fix it when they didn't install it properly!

Cheers!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I may have the wrong idea about them in my mind but I was thinking a termination box would be where you switch from fiber optic to cat5 or 6 and then inside the house/garage. Now that I think about it it has to transition from fiber to cat5/6 at the converter. Not sure what a termination box does. Need more research!

A termination tray is not the same thing as a converter.

I think those are for the cable company. My Fios box has something that looks similar to that, it's just inside the house.

MOST carriers use a GPON converter not a termination tray.

 

[cobragrover]

I'm going to try to sum up what I've learned in this thread.
1- Fiber optic cable instead of cat5/6 should probably be used between buildings for protection against lighting or electrical surges between the two which can damage to equipment.
2- Fiber optic needs a converter on each end to convert the signal over to cat5/6 cable at a RJ45 port.

3- Also needed is a transceiver which plugs into the converter. The cable plugs into the transceiver which should be compatible with the type of ends on your cable.

4- Instead of a converter I could use a switch which looks like converts the fiber to multiple RJ45 ports.

Questions
1- Should I use single mode or multimode cable? 2 strand? I'm thinking I should use direct burial cable even though its going through conduit just to ensure if it does get wet it will not affect the cable. I'm going to use 1 1/2 inch conduit.

2- Can anyone point to a video or instructions how to make the transition from my 90 up out of the ground, into the house? If an LB is not used is there a box that mounts to the house that transitions through the wall in conduit that would prevent a sharp bend in the cable? If I take the fiber into the crawl space it has to go through the wall in conduit I would think.

 

[seanc_mt]

Holy moly there is a ton of misinformation in here and you are WAYYY over thinking this....

Sysadmin and network engineer here....

Put 2" conduit in the trench for your power to run through. In same trench throw 3 1" conduit. One for a Cat6a cable 2 for "future proofing".

Cat 6A can do 10,000 mbps per second... That is more than enough for you and I right now. a 4k video stream needs 25mbps so you could have 400 different boxes streaming.

In the future when fiber is cheap and easy toss it in the backup conduit and get it running before you cut the copper. In 10 more years run the "New Future ****" in the next conduit before you cut the fiber, or pull it with your super strong pull cable IE "Cat 6A".

Done and done.