Seperate meter or ???

[TAftonomos]

So we are buying a house in Port Orange FL...which happens to come with a 1800 sqft detached garage.

Whomever built the garage did a fantastic job on the structure, but fell way short when it came to powering it up. Off of the existing 200amp panel in the house, they ran a 60 amp sub-panel to the garage. Not going to cut it...

I can tell you without question I'll need more than 60 amps in the garage, more like 100-120, and so the whole enchilada has to be upgraded. I'm using a TIG welder, plus other equipment, and eventually will install A/C.

NOW....the transformer is on property, and equal distance from the house and detached garage.

What is the likelihood that I could get FL power to let me run a separate meter on the garage only? Would be far easier than trying to upgrade the entire house to 400 amp service and then run a separate 200amp sub panel....

If I had to upgrade the house panel, is there a way to keep the existing 200 amp panel/wiring complete and simply add another 200 amp service somehow (maybe a split lug meter and disconnect?)

To complicate things, there is a driveway between the garage and the house, and I'm unsure if the conduit used would accommodate 4/0 aluminum wire.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What is the likelihood that I could get FL power to let me run a separate meter on the garage only?

I would think it won't be a problem.

You may not like the price !

 

[HeloMech]

I'm in the same boat. Except I'm going for option two and wanting to use a 400 amp split lug meter base with disconnect, then put up a 200 amp panel in the shop. Just wondering how much of the work I can do to limit cost before the electrician shows up.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Only way to know for sure is to ask your local electric utility - they all have their own rules and regulations, and in general most of them won't install two meters at a single residence, but that's not always the case.

Also, make sure to evaluate just how big a service you need for the house and shop. Assuming you're working out there by yourself you can only run one tool at a time, so you may not need as much as you think. If you can get by with the existing 60 amp subpanel that's a bunch of money you don't have to spend.

 

[DirtRoad]

Seems like everyone over estimates what they need for power.
Its not likely you would be able to even use all of 60amps in a private hobby shop let alone 100amp.

 

[HeloMech]

Electrician quoted me at $2700 just to install a 400 (320) meter socket, disconnect, a 200 amp service box in shop, and to run 30' of wire under ground from the house to the shop. That was all hardware, boxes, and wire included. I'll have several people working at once plus a heater.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'm in the same boat. Except I'm going for option two and wanting to use a 400 amp split lug meter base with disconnect, then put up a 200 amp panel in the shop.

Disconnects at the meter may not be required. It is up to the power company and local inspector.

 

[cowboyjim]

We had power company run separate line / meter to shop. then we ran lines from shop to horse barn. we are now running lines from house to hay barn and from barn to cattle pens. Wife wants power for post lights at entrance from road (driveway is almost 700 ft) and for possibly lighting a small horse arena . Currently debating the cost / work to run lines from shop or having another separate meter at the road.

 

[Falcon67]

Seems like everyone over estimates what they need for power.
Its not likely you would be able to even use all of 60amps in a private hobby shop let alone 100amp.

X2 - I have all that - no TIG - but welder, machines, light enough to tan, two AC units, etc. Never tripped a 60. I'm wired for 90A, breaker is a 70A. I should do a torture test and turn on all the AC units, heater, machines, lights, etc and see what happens. I did that at the old place - 12K AC, heater, drill press, compressor, lathe, mill, bench grinder, every light in the place. Maxed out at 49A.

 

[DirtRoad]

Go for it, would love to know what you end up pulling with everything turned on.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

1) Local PoCo may not be willing to place a second meter on a residential property.
2) If they do place the second meter, they might charge you commercial rates, which are probably way more than you want to pay.
3) Local planning and zoning may not allow second meters on residential, fearing commercial operations or rental of property in an area not allowed.
4) You will be paying, for the rest of the time you own the property, a fixed "meter charge" in every months bill. I know, I have a second meter.
5) If you split the service at the house meter, you will need a heavier service from the PoCo, which will cost you and require you dig up your yard (if underground service)
6) If you do not have an outside disconnect on the house for your present service, then you only have three wire from the meter to the house panel/disconnect. If this is the case, installing a larger meter and disconnects on the outside of the house will necessitate installing four wire to the meter, and if the house panel does not have separate ground and neutral bars and all the grounds landing on the ground, and all the neutrals landing on the neutral bar, then you have a lot of work, wires that don't reach, etc, to deal with. Its a huge toss up. I actually like having the second meter. I can kill the house and do electrical work, and still have power with an extension cord to the house from the shop.

Charles

 

[spongerich]

What about just replacing the 60A to the garage with something larger?

 

[hh76]

Before you jump in too far, I'd get some details about what is possible.

What size conduit is in place between the house and shop? What is the biggest gauge wire that could be pulled?

How much power do you actually use? I'd suggest finding out, and as others have said, you'll be surprised. Keep in mind, the most that will typically be on at once will be the AC, lights, and welder (or other machine) unless you have more than one person fabricating.

I'd guess that 100a for the house, and 100a for the shop is way more power than any normal person needs.

Last resort, call the power company, or a local electrician and ask about other options. You probably won't like the price, and second meter charge.

 

[richtersrodz]

I have a pole barn (perviously built) right next to my new house, that we just built last year. I asked, and even made sure that the electrical plan showed, an outside box on each end of the house. The builder took it upon himself, along with the electrician to not add them, and put the breaker box on the inside of the house. Now it forces me to add another meter for a future shop. When I asked about the barn, they go.. "Oh yeah.. you will need a meter for that too, it's too much to pull from the house." I was like.. "It's just a horse barn.." (my place would require 3 meters according to them) So needless to say, when I needed lights in the barn, I had to string out an extension cord. Which a week or so later, I chopped up with the mower.

Just thought I would share my meter story..

 

[Highbeam]

1800 sqft detached garage.

Whomever built the garage did a fantastic job on the structure, but fell way short when it came to powering it up. Off of the existing 200amp panel in the house, they ran a 60 amp sub-panel to the garage. Not going to cut it...

Woops, I guess I made the same mistake with my 1800 SF shop. 60 amps is lot of juice. Certainly not what I would call a mistake, you just have really high wants/needs.

 

[ForceFed70]

Seems like everyone over estimates what they need for power.
Its not likely you would be able to even use all of 60amps in a private hobby shop let alone 100amp.

x3

At least give it a shot with the 60A panel before spending a whole bunch of cash for capacity you likely don't need.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So we are buying a house in Port Orange FL...which happens to come with a 1800 sqft detached garage.

Whomever built the garage did a fantastic job on the structure, but fell way short when it came to powering it up. Off of the existing 200amp panel in the house, they ran a 60 amp sub-panel to the garage. Not going to cut it...

I can tell you without question I'll need more than 60 amps in the garage, more like 100-120, and so the whole enchilada has to be upgraded. I'm using a TIG welder, plus other equipment, and eventually will install A/C.

NOW....the transformer is on property, and equal distance from the house and detached garage.

What is the likelihood that I could get FL power to let me run a separate meter on the garage only? Would be far easier than trying to upgrade the entire house to 400 amp service and then run a separate 200amp sub panel....

If I had to upgrade the house panel, is there a way to keep the existing 200 amp panel/wiring complete and simply add another 200 amp service somehow (maybe a split lug meter and disconnect?)

To complicate things, there is a driveway between the garage and the house, and I'm unsure if the conduit used would accommodate 4/0 aluminum wire.

If you end up going with a 200a feed to your garage from the house, u will need al wire larger than 4/0 as 4/0 al is good for 180a(75c deg column). You would need 250kcmil al and thats before factoring in voltage drop, since u didnt state the distance, which may or may not be an issue!

 

[MrMark]

You will never use 60 amps. That is actually 120 amps of 120V capacity assuming complete load balance. The AC unit would be 240V but shouldn't be more than 25 amps, probably more like 15. That leaves you with a ton of capacity.

 

[James-W]

I had the electric company run a 200 amp service line from the street to my new garage and install a separate meter. I don't really need a 200 amp service in my garage, but the electric company runs the power line, up to 100 feet, (could be 200 feet, I don't remember anymore) for free. The minimum service they will run is 100 amps. I figured I may as well have them put in a 200 amp service, even though I don't currently need it, because the only extra cost is for the larger breaker panel.

I pay not quite $10 per month for the meter charge, and that will be every month from now on, but I didn't have to screw around trying to upgrade my 100 amp house electrical service and then trying to figure out how to run a line out to the garage when there is a concrete driveway in between.

For me, having the electric company run a separate line to the garage was, in my opinion, my best option. Whether it is the best option for you is something you will have to decide. But if you want my thoughts on it, I would definitely speak with the electric company and find out EXACTLY what they will do and what, if anything, will be your installation costs. You will no doubt have to buy the meter base, the mast and the waterproof head. As for anything else you may need to buy and/or if you need to hire some work done, the electric company can tell you more about that.

 

[sands35]

I just made this call to my electric utility yesterday... Granted I'm in Michigan....

BUT

They will run power from the pole (SE corner of my lot) to the meter. The pole to garage run (60-70') is shorter and simpler than a house to garage run (~120' - and through a patio area). It's up to me where to put the meter. Given that those are the rules, I'll put the meter on the garage and then the company will pay for the service lines.

My local inspector is willing to let me do all the electrical work, so that saves a bundle of money too.

I'll get the added benefit of a separate line item for garage power (may or may not be a good thing with the better half).

Basically call your power company and ask questions about what they will or will not do (already been said).

That said, if this plan falls through, I'll just run a 125A sub feed from the house to the garage. I need to open up a trench anyway for a nat gas line, a phone or two and some ethernet.....

 

[BigGMC]

If you end up going with a 200a feed to your garage from the house, u will need al wire larger than 4/0 as 4/0 al is good for 180a(75c deg column). You would need 250kcmil al and thats before factoring in voltage drop, since u didnt state the distance, which may or may not be an issue!

4/0 is used for 200A services all the time - both SER and URD configurations.

Wait, on second thought, the key "service" vs. "feeder" correct?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

4/0 is used for 200A services all the time - both SER and URD configurations.

Wait, on second thought, the key "service" vs. "feeder" correct?

Yes, branch circuit feeders and main service conductors are sized based on 2 different tables. For branch circuits, see 310.15(b)(16). For main services, see 310.15(b)(7). This is one of the many contradictory things in code that confuses newbies!

 

[TAftonomos]

Thanks for all the replies.

In my current house garage, I was only able to run a 50amp disconnect/feed for my welder (Lincoln PT 275). If I weld AC (aluminum) and turn the welder up more than about half way, it will pop the 50 amp breaker/feed in short order. The welder manual calls for a 100amp feed for the machine.

The welder is probably the single most demand out of anything I've got. The mill and lathe I had surely don't draw anywhere near what that lincoln does. The plasma cutter is solid state, lift is 110v, nothing else high demand but that welder.


The distance from the house to the garage is about 50'. Unfortunately, the builder didn't use conduit large enough to run a 4/0 feed for it...so I'd need to. This presents another problem as the entry/exit from the house is underground, and travels through a concrete pad where the A/C's are located . In order to run a larger feeder for the garage, it will require removing the A/C's, busting up the pad, tunneling under the driveway (about 15'), etc. NOT something I'd really want to do.

I guess I'll get some quotes on upping the service. My other option is to sell the PT275 and buy a solid state machine that will draw a lot less power. That might end up being cheaper than upgrading the power.

Of course there is always the dream of putting a NC maching in there at some point, but if I'm going to spend 30-40K on a machine, I can probably cough up the money to upgrade the power at that time.

Here is the overhead shot. Sorry, best I can do at the moment!

 

[Full Size 66]

Hope this helps. I just ran 150ft. of 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 for a 200 amp panel in my new garage. It is run through 2 1/2" PVC under ground. The meter base is a 320 meter base with a 3" mast, we will be running two 4,4,2's up to the weather head. The new meter base should line up almost perfectly to my existing meter base. Your codes may vary in Florida... This service will make it possible to have two 200 amp panels on one meter. The power company wants a good amount of money to make the connection after the city approves the install.

 

[Aceman]

If you end up going with a 200a feed to your garage from the house, u will need al wire larger than 4/0 as 4/0 al is good for 180a(75c deg column). You would need 250kcmil al and thats before factoring in voltage drop, since u didnt state the distance, which may or may not be an issue!

Yes, branch circuit feeders and main service conductors are sized based on 2 different tables. For branch circuits, see 310.15(b)(16). For main services, see 310.15(b)(7). This is one of the many contradictory things in code that confuses newbies!

Since we know the the garage will never be loaded to more than 180 amps, why can't he use 4/0's and take advantage of 240.4(B)?

 

[Big-Foot]

Seems like everyone over estimates what they need for power.
Its not likely you would be able to even use all of 60amps in a private hobby shop let alone 100amp.

Bingo...

I ran off of a 60 amp circuit to my shop or years, although I never tripped a breaker, I did turn the compressor off when I was welding heavy steel in the winter (furnace running) and all the lights on. Never had a problem.

My current shop is wired with its own 100 amp circuit. Even though I am adding a lift into the picture, I still think it will be overkill for my purposes.

 

[TAftonomos]

I'm not going to have 3 lights and a charger for my power drill in the garage...I know that the welder alone will draw 60-75 amps easily, and can pull 97 if I ever max it out. Combine that with an AC unit, the well pump, lighting, etc...

I don't see how the 60 amp service is going to cut it.


Based on the pic I posted, would you go for the separate meter? Or go to the trouble of upgrading the service entrance, breaking up concrete and drywall, yada yada yada.

 

[Mike K.]

I've done both. A second meter on the property & was charged commercial rate for service. I was pissed, very expensive.

Moved into a new home (200A undergound) & installed 400A meter with split lugs on external building. So 200A undergound to house with the other 200A connection & meter removed. Ran new 200A underground back to the house. Very affordable vs 400A underground cable.

Mike K.

 

[TAftonomos]

here is what I found out today:

FPL doesn't care if I put a second meter on the property. I pay for the meter base, conduit and wire to the transformer. They will install the meter and connect after permit has been signed.

2 quoted I got as well came in, both to upgrade the house to a 400amp service/split lug meter base. First quote was $5400 which didn't include re-pouring the concrete pad that would have to be broken up to run the new conduit to the garage, nor did it include disconnecting and recharging the A/C units which are on that pad.

Second quote was a cool $7000 to do it all, concrete work and a/c etc.

Running the conduit and wire to the transformer, buying a 200amp meter base and a 200 amp panel will cost me around $800. FPL says I will get charged the commercial rate initially, but I can ask about having it changed to a residential rate. I'm not holding my breath on that.

I'm trying to get an exact number from FPL on the charge for "commerical service" meter per month of $25.

So as long as I can sell it to the city (allowing 2 meters), I don't mind paying an extra $300 per year to FPL.....it would take 23 years to break even.

 

[TAftonomos]

Yes, branch circuit feeders and main service conductors are sized based on 2 different tables. For branch circuits, see 310.15(b)(16). For main services, see 310.15(b)(7). This is one of the many contradictory things in code that confuses newbies!

Thank you for bringing this to my attention! Since this would be new service, I'm assuming I can use B7 and go 4/0 with a 3/0 ground (at least this is what I'm seeing in the bundle).

I've searched and found that some inspectors won't pass an "outbuilding" with 4/0 for 200amp service. Something about since it's not a dwelling and is going to be used to work on things, that more outlets will be in use at one time.

Do I just ask the inspector about this ahead of time? The price difference between 4/0 and 250 isn't really that much, any reason why running 250 would be a bad idea?

Another dumb question....but does the cable need to be in conduit? I know coming out/under the meter base it does, but can you termiate the conduit....and how far under the surface is it supposed to be?

Maybe I can hire an electrician as a "consultant" for an hour or so and he would go over all of this with me.

Gonna have to find the regs on grounding rods as well. I love this stuff, learning along the way. Just want to make sure it's safe and done right!

 

[CNGsaves]

Why are they only offering to tear up concrete??

Another option would be to Bore Under at proper depth with a Ditch Witch or Vermeer. This won't be cheap but maybe cheaper than concrete tear-out and re-pour.

 

[ForceFed70]

I'm not going to have 3 lights and a charger for my power drill in the garage...I know that the welder alone will draw 60-75 amps easily, and can pull 97 if I ever max it out. Combine that with an AC unit, the well pump, lighting, etc...

I don't see how the 60 amp service is going to cut it.


Based on the pic I posted, would you go for the separate meter? Or go to the trouble of upgrading the service entrance, breaking up concrete and drywall, yada yada yada.

WTF are you welding? 1" plate? What welder do you own?

So have you actually tripped the breaker yet? I think you are crazy to upgrade until you actually find it is a problem in the real world instead of on paper.

But to answer your question: I chose to run off of the house service even tho it was a 200' run. I had to tear out a deck and repair drywall to make it happen.

 

[TAftonomos]

Welder is a PT275, and I've welded 3/4" aluminum before, but nothing thicker than that. 1/2" stainless yes.

Not sure if I can describe it without a photo...but the pad that the A/C sit on is poured up to the house wall. The service entrance comes up through the pad. The pad is inbetween and directly next to the driveway (main) and the sidewalk to go to the pool. Only way to place a conduit large enough for #250 would be to remove the A/C's and tear up the pad.

I'll just pay the 25$ extra a month, save tearing up a bunch of stuff that doesn't need it. Save interrupting the family without power, and save 7K too.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Tell them if they are going to charge you a "commercial" rate, you want "commercial" power - 3 Phase !

 

[Charles (in GA)]

the main question is how much is the cents per kilowatt hr for the commercial rate, vs the residential rate.

When you got to the poco office to set up the second account, make sure they understand this is NOT a business and you do not have a business license. They may go ahead and set it up as residential from the beginning if they understand the situation.

Charles