Septic systems ??

[Gas-stove bolt]

We are building a shop and will need a septic system. The ground has a lot of clay and the area has a lot of Lagoon systems.

With out costing a small fortune , is there a better way ? I really didn't want open water on my property. It's 3.5 acres and in a 9 lot subdivision. I'm sure the open water will draw snakes and other wildlife. This is north central Missouri. I grew up in the city and do not know a lot about any of this, but would like to find out all I can before we start flushing.



Thanks.

 

[Scott r c]

How about an aerobic system. Look up solar-air or clearstream. Im sure there is a dealer in your area.

 

[Cyberbear]

You definitely do not want open water from a septic system, stinky, filthy and toxic, which is why they are installed underground, unless you really mean a cesspool, which is just as bad as an open septic system. Toilet waste products are best avoided.
In our area the average septic system starts at $2, 500.00 and goes up, plus you need adequate soil for proper usage, clay is not the best.

 

[dw1]

If this is getting inspected, your ground will have to "Perk" and if it doesnt handle the water efficiently, you need to bring in loads of topsoil, probably alot of them if you have alot of clay $$. If this system will not be used a whole lot, would a holding tank work out? these come in different sizes, you just have to have them pumped out when full. You can get poly or concrete tanks now, poly tanks are light, but still expensive. You can google "Poly septic tank"

Do you have "neighbors" yet, I would ask what they are using. Good luck with trying to sneek something in, I bought a 1.5 acre house/lot, I cleared the whole thing, tore down a horse barn, built a new barn, place actually looks great now, but everything I do is under the watchful eye of everyone around there (keeps me honest, I guess...)

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Contact a professional. Get the perk test (basically a test of how much water you're land can absorb). From that they will determine what size of drain field you will need or what options you may have.

 

[FFRKing]

It's best to ask the neighbors and see what they have done. They may have the answers to most of your questions. Check with the county or local governing body to see what the requirements are for your area.
Contrary to some beliefs, open water sewer pits, or lagoons, are not stinky, filthy, or toxic if taken care of. I have had one for over 10 years. My local requirement is that it is completely fenced. That is all. It is 55' square and maybe 6-7' deep in the center. The surface area of the actual water is about 25-30' square. If this is your only option, they are easily hidden with landscaping and you shouldn't be concerned about how it looks. Check around your neighborhood and see what they have.
I may see a frog or turtle in mine, but I keep it mowed once a month and have rarely seen a snake. I do live in the country though.

Chris

 

[Stuart in MN]

There are so many variables for septic systems (local practices and regulations, soil quality and conditions, water table level, distance to the nearest wetlands, and a bunch of other things) that you really need to talk to someone local. Your county may have a soils scientist who can help.

 

[Bondo]

Ayuh,.... As noted above, until a Perk Test is done, yer just guessin' at yer options,.....

 

[jpinca]

I think you should start by seeing if onsite waste disposal is under any authority. Here it is under the dept of health. Up until two years ago, only traditional gravity systems were allowed. The rules have now changed to reflect the latest tech avaible.

Point being, your choices may already have been made for you.

The local authority can also advise what is generally installed in your area and any other requirements. Don't give them a specific location in case you want to become an assault plumber.

 

[Apex Structures]

Perk and probe, talk to the neighbors. The soil conditions are typically common in the surrounding area.

 

[billspit]

Our state apparently no longer does perk tests. They just look at the type soil. There are engineered wetlands type systems that do not stink. So they say.

 

[rburke65]

I am sure that your local Dept. Of Water Sanitation already has this worked out for you.

 

[jonjon1]

I am licensed to install and repair septic systems {I have only installed never repaired}, and if this is getting inspected, you hav eto contact a contractor and get it done how they recommend and can get approved...

I like the eljen systems, I have done mound, sloped mound, trench cluster, serial, every kind you can imagine and they all work well.

BUT when I really started building plats, I have to say I fell in love with EZflow, them things are cheap to install and work super well. They are 50% leach 50% evap, shallow, and you hardly need any material, the system is a plastic pipe in a sock with packing peanuts all around it, I hactually have this type of system in the home I live in, 4 full baths, 5 bedrooms, over 4K sq feet and it works great, we have huge parties and dinners, all year long and NEVER had an issue...

so there are tons of options, you just need to find what works for your area, I would start with calling a contractor, he is going to do a test whole and perk, then he will know your area and what should be done...

 

[Jagmandave]

A big "if" depends on where you live, if it's in Johnson County, Ks be prepared to spend a LOT of $$$$$.

I have a property just outside Olathe and was quoted around $25K for a mound system for a 2 bedroom house.

They also wanted a $10K fee to hook up to the city water system already in place.....

I decided not to build.

Jonjon, doesn't the soil type have a lot to do with what kind of system you can us? can you use the EZflow system in heavy clay soil?

 

[Algoma56]

Yes, I'd like to know too. We have a large mound system on clay property, for our seasonal property, but it sure takes up a lot of our lot.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

I am licensed to install and repair septic systems {I have only installed never repaired}, and if this is getting inspected, you hav eto contact a contractor and get it done how they recommend and can get approved...

I like the eljen systems, I have done mound, sloped mound, trench cluster, serial, every kind you can imagine and they all work well.

BUT when I really started building plats, I have to say I fell in love with EZflow, them things are cheap to install and work super well. They are 50% leach 50% evap, shallow, and you hardly need any material, the system is a plastic pipe in a sock with packing peanuts all around it, I hactually have this type of system in the home I live in, 4 full baths, 5 bedrooms, over 4K sq feet and it works great, we have huge parties and dinners, all year long and NEVER had an issue...

so there are tons of options, you just need to find what works for your area, I would start with calling a contractor, he is going to do a test whole and perk, then he will know your area and what should be done...

You have to be shittin' me and pun intended.

 

[jonjon1]

Yes clay will be a no go for a lot of systems, you can do the ez flow in a mound, it works awesome, MOUND systems are the answer to a lot of questions, some times, ledge, soil quality, high water tables, etc put you in a mound system, but unlike other areas of construction you kind of get more for your money with the mound system, when done correctly they work great, a lot of people don't understand that leaching is only part of the equation, evap is the bigger and better tool to get rid of moisture, so with a mound system you get more area of evap, coupled with an efficient delivery system, you can get rid of a lot of grey water...

I hate to say it but the entire sytem {if you are not "sneaking " it in } is going to be dictated by your department of environmental management and the local official aproving the design before you take a shovel full of dirt out... If you are sneaking it in, I know the do goodies will have a bunch to say about it, BUT then you can use a bit of common sense and do the system to work and be safe but, maybe not spend $30K...

And as for taking up space, its just the nature of the beast, you can't do much with a stone field either, can't put a pool or shed on it, etc..

 

[tdkkart]

Here's a lesson for us all......NEVER buy a property without checking out the details, including what the details are are what it's gonna cost to do a septic.

 

[jonjon1]

Here's a lesson for us all......NEVER buy a property without checking out the details, including what the details are are what it's gonna cost to do a septic.

Normally a bank will not give a loan on a property with out a passing septic, or if its new construction that want signed and stamped prints in most cases...

I sold so much property because I was selling lots that I cleared, installed a field in and had the well drilled, And I met with the buyer and gave them for free a set of plans for the property, they old me what they wanted and I put together the permit applications, prints, everything. So when banks tightened up the loans and NO ONE could get a construction loan I was one of the only contractors still able to sell land, because the banks couldn't ask for expensive tests, special plans, and written contracts from bonded companies saying they would take financial responsibility incase the lot was not fit for building. Other builders couldn't get $50K for lots I was getting $150 and only printed the blues, installed a $6500 septic system and drilled a $2900 well....


But anyway the op needs to get a contractor out there, get at least 5 prices {I know it sounds like a lot, but there is a HUGE price difference between contractors for similar systems some times..} I know I always charged more for commercial systems because there was always something else that would pop up..

 

[theoldwizard1]

We are building a shop and will need a septic system. The ground has a lot of clay and the area has a lot of Lagoon systems.

Never heard of a septic "lagoon system". Any open pit water is usually just run off from a parking lot.

 

[jonjon1]

Never heard of a septic "lagoon system". Any open pit water is usually just run off from a parking lot.

Oh they exist, you think that is bad google engineered or constructed wetland septic, even worse lol.
One day I seen some kids playing in an constructed wetlands system, Iw as like WTF these kids are going to be loaded with HEP-ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP- I stopped and beeped for them to get out of there but they could care less about me, they were splashing around like it was a pond, riding their bikes through it... Normally local code dictates fences...

These systems work but have a lot of down sides, size for one, you need a lot of land to make systems like this work, normally you wouldnt consider it with out more than 3-4 acres...

underground discharge is much better for residential septics..

 

[theoldwizard1]

I am licensed to install and repair septic systems {I have only installed never repaired}, ...

BUT when I really started building plats, I have to say I fell in love with EZflow, ...

I went to their web site and there was very little info on installation, so I have lots of questions.

• What is the typical size of the bundle for residential use ?
• What determines the overall length, depth and number of side bundle(s) required ?
• What is the "barrier paper" made out of and why is it necessary ?
• Does these type of leach field require any special septic tank (oversize, more than 2 chambers) ?

My assumption is that the "peanuts" hold the liquid until the surrounding "heavy" soil can absorb it, correct ? If you have very high ground water, this system will not work.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

And add to the WIZ's question's, where does the toilet paper and solids end up in these 3 filter wrapped pipes ?

 

[jonjon1]

I went to their web site and there was very little info on installation, so I have lots of questions.

• What is the typical size of the bundle for residential use ?
  
  thats going to depend on your local designer, for a basic 2.5 bath 3 bedroom figure around 250 feet
• What determines the overall length, depth and number of side bundle(s) required ? the designer, these go very shallow, so the system has to be designed from the exit of the building to meet up with it,
• What is the "barrier paper" made out of and why is it necessary ?
  the barrier is made of a woven textile material, your upper barrier is going to keep your cover material from impinging in through the netting.
• Does these type of leach field require any special septic tank (oversize, more than 2 chambers) ? Basic tank, again will be up to the designer, 1000 gallon cement septic tank.

My assumption is that the "peanuts" hold the liquid until the surrounding "heavy" soil can absorb it, correct ? yes, so think of it as a filter but not to filter the fluid just to slow it down and evenly distribute it to the surrounding material, and it also stores "dry" energy, I am not sure how to explain that, I hope you get what I am trying to say.

NO system will work in a high water table, thats why we use mounds in most cases. YOU CAN NOT drain septic into the water table.

I dont know how to answer the questions above and have it not in your quote so I just bold underlined my answers...
So to clarify your run you drain pipe out of your house to your tank from your tank to your field {could use D box depending on design}, up to the field is pretty constant, you cant introduce solids to a field it will destroy it, so adding live bacteria, not using certain chemicals and cleaners that inhimbit bacteria growth, using the correct paper, watching what you introduce to the system, and getting it pumped regularly will give you a long life of pretty much any system on the market...

A little more info on the ez flo because I know the internet is tough for info on these systems, its like the secret of the business, lol...

It comes in many sizes and you can buy it with no pipe in it just the aggrigate
so say you were doing a mound system, you could do 180 feet of pipe with a row of agrigate only inbetween all of them, so it will look like 8 or 9 rows but only 3 pipes go into the entire system, you can do it with no d box just tee and mamifold everything with glued fittings...

For a mound, you normally do about 12"s of cover, with a buried system less than that...

 

[theoldwizard1]

Yes clay will be a no go for a lot of systems, you can do the ez flow in a mound, it works awesome, MOUND systems are the answer to a lot of questions, ...

Around here they are call "raised bed" septic fields. If the soil is mostly clay, they usually make you remove 4 feet of it and fill it with sand. The field is laid at ground level and then buried under 4' of sand.

 

[jonjon1]

And add to the WIZ's question's, where does the toilet paper and solids end up in these 3 filter wrapped pipes ?

They will be in your septic tank, this is just a field, NO SOLIDS. They ell their own tank, I always used cement tanks from a local supplier, never had to worry about special back filling procedures, driving over it, ect.. Just a big cement chanberred box...

 

[jonjon1]

Around here they are call "raised bed" septic fields. If the soil is mostly clay, they usually make you remove 4 feet of it and fill it with sand. The field is laid a ground level and then buried under 4' of sand.

So are these pressure systems? Or down grade from the tank that is buried? There are different systems all over the country/world... Everyone does it different, different materials, procedures, codes, etc...

 

[theoldwizard1]

And add to the WIZ's question's, where does the toilet paper and solids end up in these 3 filter wrapped pipes ?

Not familiar with septic systems, are you !

The first stop outside the house is a large underground tank. Typically made of cast concrete and it has 2 chambers with a totall volume of between 1000-2000 gallons. In the first chambers solids fall to the bottom and are anaerobically "digested" (broken down) TP falls apart quickly. Other paper products take longer Anything that contains plastic never digests. Cooking fat and grease do not digest.

As the first chamber fills, the liquid spills over into the second chamber where more digestion takes place. Any small particles fall out here, Once it is full it leave the tank and travels to the "field" where is is absorbed into the soil.

If you have a raised bed/mounded field, there is a second, typically smaller 1 chamber tank. This has a submersible pump in it. When the effluence in this tank reaches a certain level, the pump comes on and pumps it to the field which is typically at ground level and cover by sand.

 

[theoldwizard1]

So are these pressure systems? Or down grade from the tank that is buried? There are different systems all over the country/world... Everyone does it different, different materials, procedures, codes, etc...

See last post

MI is basically flat, so there is very little "down grade" on anyone's lot.

Raised bed are now quite common on homes near lakes. The original septic systems installed 50+ years ago have given out, frequently from high ground water in spring. The raised bed (with 3 chamber and pump) is really the only solution.

I wonder if any counties/townships in MI are allowing EZflow WITHOUT having a 4' high "Indian burial mound" on top.

 

[jonjon1]

See last post

MI is basically flat, so there is very little "down grade" on anyone's lot.

Raised bed are now quite common on homes near lakes. The original septic systems installed 50+ years ago have given out, frequently from high ground water in spring. The raised bed (with 3 chamber and pump) is really the only solution.

I wonder if any counties/townships in MI are allowing EZflow WITHOUT having a 4' high "Indian burial mound" on top.

Out of all the properties I built I have only had to do 2 pumped systems, both were ran by timer/control boards and I hated the systems, they worked and they were expensive, and can never be as nice as a system with no mechanical pump... I didn't do septic systems for hire or repairs, I only did the systems for my developments, so I did the same basic systems just different sizes and locations, I have built a lot of houses and in turn done a lot of systems. I like how easy, affordable, and how the ezflow systems work, it will work for pressurized above grade systems so I am sure it is available all over the country. It is catching on that is for sure.

The only time I would rip out an existing system is when I was doing rehab and flips and the existing system would not pass, I would take my excavator and tri axle in, completely remove the material there, and completely replace it with a new system and new material, I left tanks of course but the fields got redone, start to finish...

Actually the few people I helped out {friends and family} with repairs also got complete new systems, I never dug up a single pipe and repaired it or a single leg off a d box, I just rip them out and replace, if I am there with the machine, Im doing it start to finish..

I will tell you it could be a really good business for someone that can run a backhoe, I always said for a single guy that doesn't mind getting a little dirty, you can buy a $70K back hoe, $30K used tri axle dump, and a machine trailer and be in business with a few night classes and dem tests... I know guys making $180K a year doing it...

 

[gregtwojeeps]

Not familiar with septic systems, are you !

The first stop outside the house is a large underground tank. Typically made of cast concrete and it has 2 chambers with a totall volume of between 1000-2000 gallons. In the first chambers solids fall to the bottom and are anaerobically "digested" (broken down) TP falls apart quickly. Other paper products take longer Anything that contains plastic never digests. Cooking fat and grease do not digest.

As the first chamber fills, the liquid spills over into the second chamber where more digestion takes place. Any small particles fall out here, Once it is full it leave the tank and travels to the "field" where is is absorbed into the soil.

If you have a raised bed/mounded field, there is a second, typically smaller 1 chamber tank. This has a submersible pump in it. When the effluence in this tank reaches a certain level, the pump comes on and pumps it to the field which is typically at ground level and cover by sand.

Slow down now Wiz Man,

I used to help install septic tank/lateral fields when I first got out of school, Hell, there were more septic systems installed around my old home town than there was city sanitary. . Go back to page 1 in JON'S first pic/text and show me where he stated his system had a septic tank. Therefore my question of paper and solid disposal.

 

[Scott r c]

The aerobic systems I mentioned in my first post usually average around 7k for a complete install.

 

[Lippyp]

Reed beds are the only open systems you get here. They are loved by the eco types and do work well if constructed right but they still require you to have a septic tank at the start of the system for the solids. The reed beds treat the liquid outflow. I wouldn't let my kids play in them though and I guess it depends if they are accepted over there under your building codes. You also need a slope and somewhere to discharge the water finally.

 

[Notgrownup]

I am licensed to install and repair septic systems {I have only installed never repaired}, and if this is getting inspected, you hav eto contact a contractor and get it done how they recommend and can get approved...

I like the eljen systems, I have done mound, sloped mound, trench cluster, serial, every kind you can imagine and they all work well.

BUT when I really started building plats, I have to say I fell in love with EZflow, them things are cheap to install and work super well. They are 50% leach 50% evap, shallow, and you hardly need any material, the system is a plastic pipe in a sock with packing peanuts all around it, I hactually have this type of system in the home I live in, 4 full baths, 5 bedrooms, over 4K sq feet and it works great, we have huge parties and dinners, all year long and NEVER had an issue...

so there are tons of options, you just need to find what works for your area, I would start with calling a contractor, he is going to do a test whole and perk, then he will know your area and what should be done...

That middle pipe looks like it can handle some serious logs....lol

 

[Voi]

We are building a shop and will need a septic system.

With out costing a small fortune , is there a better way?

My county now has a very strict septic ordinance. A lot of seasonal vacation properties or shops are just putting in holding tanks that then need to be pumped more frequently.

I think separate gray and black holding tanks end up costing about half of what a previously traditional septic systems and leach field would cost. And by traditional I mean what would have been allowed before our new ordinance. Now soil profiles and perc tests are requiring much more expensive systems.

With separate tanks you can irrigate with your gray water and some people even recycle it by running it through a basic mechanical filter and using it to flush their toilets, for example.

A combined holding tank ends up being cheaper yet but has to be pumped more frequently.

If this is just for a shop and a home won't be on the same systems then it might be worth checking to see if this is even allowed in your area.

If it's just for a shop will you have much gray water being produced? Just for washing hands or will there be a shower for cleaning up? Washing machine for shop clothes? Car wash bay with a drain? Anything else?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Slow down now Wiz Man,

I used to help install septic tank/lateral fields when I first got out of school, Hell, there were more septic systems installed around my old home town than there was city sanitary. . Go back to page 1 in JON'S first pic/text and show me where he stated his system had a septic tank. Therefore my question of paper and solid disposal.

I apologize !

I just ASSUMED there had to be a septic "up front" of the fancy field tile !

 

[theoldwizard1]

My county now has a very strict septic ordinance. A lot of seasonal vacation properties or shops are just putting in holding tanks that then need to be pumped more frequently.

My brother-in-law did that at his "camp" (weekend use only). Only one "permanent" structure, a dirt floor pole barn. No running water. No electricity.

He wanted a pit toilet, but his wife said no way, too stinky. He had to do some fast talking to the local authorities, but the allowed him to install just a holding tank. The "outhouse" has a porcelain commode and a rain water gathered storage tank outside for supply. Last I heard, it might have developed some leaks about 4' above the bottom of the tank. Been over 5 years and he hasn't had it pumped yet.

 

[Gas-stove bolt]

The contractor was the one saying we needed a Lagoon system. It has a 1000 gallon tank and then the finished water empties into a pond 3 foot deep and 45 feet round that is exposed to the sun for algae growth. The algae produces oxygen to feed the bacteria that eats the escaped ****.

The shop will have a stool and a shower and then a sink in the shop and will not be a main use area. This septic system has to be separate from the house. Two systems. The land was too nice to pass up. It's in a brand new development, so everything is new. The back yard butts up to the city and they said NO to hooking up to their sewer. Don't know why, everything else is City. Oh well , it will be what it will be.

BTW, the contractor has to be certified by the state to put a septic system in and that's the only ones that can install. I also heard of a Dry Lagoon system ??

 

[MoparTrucks]

You definitely do not want open water from a septic system, stinky, filthy and toxic, which is why they are installed underground, unless you really mean a cesspool, which is just as bad as an open septic system. Toilet waste products are best avoided.
In our area the average septic system starts at $2, 500.00 and goes up, plus you need adequate soil for proper usage, clay is not the best.

Man you are pretty misinformed. Lagoon systems aren't for everyone in every application but they are very efficient and they have have no odor if they are installed correctly. They use a septic tank to separate solids and break down sewage anaerobically then the waste water goes into a lagoon to be broken down further aerobically. They are used in low population density areas and where soil isn't very good for traditional septic systems.

If the OP has the option of a lagoon system it will be by far the cheapest solution and it will be very effective but you will have to have a small area for the lagoon and it will have to be lined (probably Bentonite) and fenced.

 

[FFRKing]

My lagoon system has been in place for 10 years. Everyone in the area has this system, minimum 5 acre lot required, unless they are misinformed as some have suggested. My system does not use a holding tank. All contents go into the lagoon where the solids are digested by bacteria and water evaporates. These types of systems have been used in this area for 70+ years.
There is no reason to fear this type of system.

Chris