Septic tank questions

[Xkylescorex]

Ok Ive never had a house with a septic tank before and I know almost nothing about them. Well Ive started the process of buying a house with a septic tank. One of tge things Im planning on doing is building a detached garage and I would hope to have an apartment above for my in laws and guests (its a lakehouse) . This would require tying into the septic. While doing the inspection on the septic Ive had 2 different people come out. They said the pump works and the rank looks good and its flowing but they cant find he drain field since its too deep. There is a map from the county showing where it is but their probes dont hit it. My first question is this, should I be scared ? Should I walk away? My gut is telling me, if 2 professional septic guys cant find it how do I know its even there and how do I know as soon as we move in and 4 people start using it, its not going to back up every week. Maybe Im being paranoid. Is this normal to not be able to find the drain field? Also if I do go through and buy this place how much of a pain will it be to tie into the septic?

 

[Dagny]

What state do you live in and how much land is there?

 

[kd3pc]

something is awry. the map from the county should be accurate...unless the drain field has been replaced or moved...then there should be a new map. Probes, may not "hit" due to depth, materials the drain field is made of, off by a few inches...etc. You could dig it up...

Don't be too excited about tying in additional items, seldom is the system sized to do so. Permits may require a new system, or new technology added to the system, and so on. Location and county will allow others who actually live there to help you out.

I would ask your realtor for another septic guy...or visit the health department yourself and ask them for the file and a reputable/licensed septic company.

 

[kbs2244]

The county map should show depth.
And they can tell you max bedrooms for your field.

 

[johninct]

My experience with older septic systems has been that the map usually doesn't match the leaching field.

 

[clubairth]

I don't think you can just tie in additional sewer lines? Your system will need to be enlarged to handle the added living quarters.

Rules have most likely tightened as well so I would plan for the cost of a new and enlarged septic system. Have you checked with your planning department? Can you even add another structure? Lakes tend to have even more restrictive zoning.
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[buddyboy]

another variable is LAKEHOUSE. depending on where you are many lake front properties are required to switch over to a sewer system when old one is no longer serviceable. if it's a secluded lake with few homes you may be ok.

ask lots of questions before you buy

 

[brownbagg]

why do you care where the drain field is, it going be maintance free. and just look for the green grass, thats the field

i been on septic since 72 and has never done anything to it

 

[Xkylescorex]

Thanks guys. The first septic inspector came out and said he couldnt find it because it was too deep for his probes so I asked for a second inspector. The second inspector came out and said the same thing. I was livid because the whole reason I had the 2nd guy come out was because the first guy said it was too deep. Then my realtor asked the owner to have the health department guy to come out but the owner said no. This threw up a red flag. We are suppossed to close in 2 weeks and everything has been finalized except for this. I just told my realtor we were walking away from the sale if we couldnt verify the condition of the septic. She just countered that she was going to have the health department guy and the owner of the septic company meet her out there in a day or so to nail this down. Since I have no experience with septic tanks I didnt know if I was over reacting. The lake lot is 1 acre and is located in alexander county in nc. The tank is about twice the size required for the house so I should be able to add on if they will give me permits

 

[Xkylescorex]

why do you care where the drain field is, it going be maintance free. and just look for the green grass, thats the field

i been on septic since 72 and has never done anything to it

I dont care where it is, i just want to make sure it works

 

[OzarkMan]

Nothing to be afraid of with Septic. My tank was first pumped out by us after 40 years. The inspectors only did a partial pumping through a 4" pipe to do a camera inspection when we were buying the house. They never found the lid or properly cleaned/pumped it all the way it until I dug it up to find the main lid. Suffice to say, it was in excellent condition for its age. My county records didn't match where the septic or seepage pit was located. I had to dig it all up to find it.
Regarding a new building, you will most likely be told to put in a separate system, upgrade your system, or tie into the sewer if it is available in your area. Tying into the sewer can cost you upwards of 20k depending on where you are. The city/health department dictate what you can and can't do with your septic.

Either way, congratulations on looking for a new home and best of luck!

 

[Xkylescorex]

Also house was built in 1991, which should be new enough that it is somewhat up to date but its still 26 years old

 

[finn]

If he's adding a garage and apartment, it's pretty important that he knows where the current field is, or he'll possibly destroy it while excavating for the new construction.

I agree that he may need a new field if adding bedrooms.

Also, it may not be permissible to add a separate apartment to the lot.

 

[OzarkMan]

He will have to call it an "office" when he does his building.

 

[PeterT]

Usually this time of year, you can spot both the tank and septic field,, unless you have so much rain the grass is super green.

 

[larry4406]

Use google earth on the address. At the top of the screen is a time button so you can go back in time to observe prior fly overs. May get lucky and see construction progress photos. Also the parallel lines of the field are usually visible (more green).

 

[OzarkMan]

Use google earth on the address. At the top of the screen is a time button so you can go back in time to observe prior fly overs. May get lucky and see construction progress photos. Also the parallel lines of the field are usually visible (more green).

Thats cool. Didn't know that!

I will have to check my house despite it being a '76 build

 

[barnee]

I don't think you should rely on third parties such as realtors, contractors etc. Call the health department and sit down with them and discuss your plans. They will tell you what's required and you can decide if its worth it.

Usually if there isn't a solid record of the field and tanks size and capacity you will be starting over, with no clear idea if its a minor issue or major.

 

[matt_i]

Imo the condition of the field is nearly impossible to judge without excavating and then its trashed from the excavation and needs replacement. Possibly a better tactic would be to get the seller to pump the tank for you before the sale due to "unknown condition" which around here would be something like a $500 credit to you and save you a few years before you have to do it again on your own dime

Also imo your health department or some subset of building and zoning will dictate what you have to do. I lived in a county once which wanted me to put in my own/new/separate from house 1500 gallon tank + field for a single toilet and sink in a proposed shop because they assessed the need blindly on square footage added....it could be relatively easy or a complete pain not worth continuing the restroom feature without much middle ground.

 

[UpstateNY]

I don't think you should rely on third parties such as realtors, contractors etc. Call the health department and sit down with them and discuss your plans. They will tell you what's required and you can decide if its worth it.

Usually if there isn't a solid record of the field and tanks size and capacity you will be starting over, with no clear idea if its a minor issue or major.

^This^

At this late date you should be able to verify that the septic/leach system is in good shape and adequate for what you have, but you're flying blind as to what the future holds as far as expansion. You should've met with the Health Dept the moment you placed an offer. If the system checks out, buy the place, but buy it knowing that it may not be economically / technically feasible to have a toilet as part of the garage addition.

 

[PassnThru]

why do you care where the drain field is, it going be maintance free. and just look for the green grass, thats the field

i been on septic since 72 and has never done anything to it

Usually this time of year, you can spot both the tank and septic field,, unless you have so much rain the grass is super green.

I thought it was the opposite? If your grass is greener over your leach field then it's shallow or you have a problem. If it's greener over your tank then you really have a problem.

 

[Northislander]

In my opinion as a home owner with a septic system, also am a plumber that has installed a lot of septic systems.
1. I would make seller pumping the tank part of condition of sale
2. have someone with a camera inspect and locate distribution box
3. video inspect, locate and mark all the laterals
if vendor isn't willing to do this i'd walk away unless i really loved the lake

 

[scruffy]

I'm going to put my 2 pesos worth here. I live in Eastern NC. The county you live in will have jurisdiction thru county health dept. My wife and I put a septic tank in in 2003 for small double wide. The county required 900 or 1000 gallons ( I cant remember).This was based on the number of bedrooms in house. In 2013 we moved a larger home (4 bedroom) on same site. I had predicted that we would have to upgrade to larger tank ( 2 kids now, 4 people total) The inspector said if I was good with old tank he was. Any how there should be a map /drawing on file at county health dept showing tank, leach field, who installed etc. Now in Sampson County (eastern NC) only one dwelling per tank. so that may be the flaw in the slaw to add apartment and tie in to old tank. It could be the judgement/attitude of inspector. Sorry for being long winded.

 

[Marctrees]

Xkyle - At that age it is very possible, probable, that the drain field has notably deteriorated to flow water.

Figure like up to 5k for upgrading that, assuming tank(s) are fine.

With the age you are considering, you DEFINATELY need to consider that in the price.

Don't be hesitant to tell the agent/ buyer that.

They may scoff, but they know darn well it's true, assuming educated in the real world.

Depending on your inspector viewpoint, tanks themselves can last "forever", or not.

Marc

 

[Marctrees]

Also, when you say "pump", do you mean an "Aerobic system " with an Air pump, or some sort of effluent pump due to elevtion issues?

The Air pumps are like $500 or more to buy if you replace yourself, no bigee, but most can be simply quickly rebuilt by anyone w common GJ knowledge on site, 1 hour, like a compressor for like under $150.

They DO need to be rebuilt like ballpark every 5 years ballpark, YMMV.

And air intake filter cleaned every few years, depends on local conditions.

Greatly varies, lawn mowing, dust storm area, etc.

10 minute job once it's in front of you.


Best place by far--- Have made 3 purchases over 12 years for two diff homes...
Marc

https://www.septicsolutions.com/

 

[bushmechanic]

Thanks guys. The first septic inspector came out and said he couldnt find it because it was too deep for his probes so I asked for a second inspector. The second inspector came out and said the same thing. I was livid because the whole reason I had the 2nd guy come out was because the first guy said it was too deep. Then my realtor asked the owner to have the health department guy to come out but the owner said no. This threw up a red flag. We are suppossed to close in 2 weeks and everything has been finalized except for this. I just told my realtor we were walking away from the sale if we couldnt verify the condition of the septic. She just countered that she was going to have the health department guy and the owner of the septic company meet her out there in a day or so to nail this down. Since I have no experience with septic tanks I didnt know if I was over reacting. The lake lot is 1 acre and is located in alexander county in nc. The tank is about twice the size required for the house so I should be able to add on if they will give me permits

You are NOT over reacting. Get those buggers out there to verify what's going on. It's a long legal battle if you buy a house with a septic system that fails to meet approval.

Beyond that, ALL your answers should be coming from inspectors and soil scientists.

Nobody on the net is going to be able to help you figure this out, and if you make a mistake because someone gave you a suggestion, it could be an INCREDIBLY expensive mistake.

Septic systems are quite reliable. The trouble is all the regulation, which is there for a reason.

There is absolutely no excuse for not knowing where a septic drainage field is, and there is likewise ABSOLUTELY no excuse for not being able to find the thing or denying access.

Those people either know something, or they do not want to know something.

 

[Marctrees]

If you love the place, don't run away, just make it known to all this will affect selling price. Marc

 

[Marctrees]

We bought a place 3 yrs ago, nice rural home, $32k cause of where it is, and have been babying the input since then.

Will need to bite 4K bullet soon for drainfield, tanks are fine, , even though we have diverted most gray water.

Marc

 

[brownbagg]

google earth the site, and go back in history and you will see it

 

[mbatarga]

I didn't read all the above posts - however, the septic system is designed to support a certain number of bedrooms (people) only. Doesn't matter the size of the tank - it's the number and length/size of the drain lines that matter. You need to find out the capacity of the installed system to determine if there is excess for you to add onto the current system.

I bet there is no extra capacity.

 

[ptgarcia]

Are you sure there is a leach field? I'm a civil engineer, and when we design septic systems we don't even use leach fields. Instead, we use seepage pits (tank to distribution box to seepage pits). Perhaps that is what was installed at your location.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

 

[George in Rancho Cordova]

My uncle waited for cold weather, ran hot water from the heating system down the drain, & took photos with infrared film from upstairs.

 

[OzarkMan]

We have a seepage pit too and they are popular in AZ due to the soft soil deep down. Mine goes down 36 feet and is 3' diameter lined with rocks with a perforated pipe going down the whole length. I once had a garden hose at full blast for 4 hours in the pipe and the water never came up. Supposedly designed for 600 gallons a day use.
You may want to find out the use capacity from the health department. They will have the original installation forms. Also, it is a requirement in most states that the seller have the tank pumped completely and inspected. As mentioned above, getting a camera man to look for the pipes may be a great way to go.

I too have used Septicsolutions.com. Great website.

 

[steveo1o9]

Hire someone to come in and locate the system with a locator not just a probe. They can run a wire down the laterals from the distribution box and use the locator to pinpoint the lateral. Some locators can even give the depth of the wire. Just make sure this results match the as-built information the health department has.

The size of the tank means nothing, it is the length of the laterals that will be the issue and very seldom are leech fields oversized. You would most probably need to add additional laterals or extend the existing if you plan to add bedrooms. Also note that many older lake houses do not meet current setback requirements (setbacks from well, lake, house, etc.) and can be grandfathered in. By adding to your system it could create a snowball effect and you end up installing a whole new system. I am not saying this will happen but I have seen it before so do your homework before you make any decisions. Don't just assume that you can buy this house and start adding on without all of your ducks in a row.

 

[maxpower_hd]

Thanks guys. The first septic inspector came out and said he couldnt find it because it was too deep for his probes so I asked for a second inspector. The second inspector came out and said the same thing. I was livid because the whole reason I had the 2nd guy come out was because the first guy said it was too deep. Then my realtor asked the owner to have the health department guy to come out but the owner said no. This threw up a red flag. We are suppossed to close in 2 weeks and everything has been finalized except for this. I just told my realtor we were walking away from the sale if we couldnt verify the condition of the septic. She just countered that she was going to have the health department guy and the owner of the septic company meet her out there in a day or so to nail this down. Since I have no experience with septic tanks I didnt know if I was over reacting. The lake lot is 1 acre and is located in alexander county in nc. The tank is about twice the size required for the house so I should be able to add on if they will give me permits

In Massachusetts all septic systems must pass what they call Title V regulations upon sale. Or it needs to have money set aside in an escrow if the seller is unable to afford to repair up to code. There are some exceptions when buying homes that are being demolished/rehabbed by builders and so forth. I am sure there is some kind of similar regulation where you live. At a minimum you have the right to ensure that the system functions as it was originally designed at a minimum before you buy. I would insist that it be proven before I bought it. Septic systems can be VERY expensive.

Depending on when and how the system was designed and built it is possible you may be able to add the bedroom and bathroom above the garage. It entirely depends on what the owners intent was when they installed it. They may have been planning on adding on to the house in which case the system could be oversized for the current need. OR they might have only designed it to the minimum specification for what they needed to save money.

So even if the system works fine you still might not be able to add a bathroom to the system.

 

[ford33]

Extend the time of closing so you can verify the septic system condition. If seller will not extend the closing date that is a red flag and I would walk away.

 

[maxpower_hd]

Nothing to be afraid of with Septic. My tank was first pumped out by us after 40 years. The inspectors only did a partial pumping through a 4" pipe to do a camera inspection when we were buying the house. They never found the lid or properly cleaned/pumped it all the way it until I dug it up to find the main lid. Suffice to say, it was in excellent condition for its age. My county records didn't match where the septic or seepage pit was located. I had to dig it all up to find it.
Regarding a new building, you will most likely be told to put in a separate system, upgrade your system, or tie into the sewer if it is available in your area. Tying into the sewer can cost you upwards of 20k depending on where you are. The city/health department dictate what you can and can't do with your septic.

Either way, congratulations on looking for a new home and best of luck!

Massachusetts has some pretty strict standards regarding septic. It is almost always cheaper to hook to the sewer here unless you have to run the line down a road or something.

 

[6768rogues]

Leach lines should not be deep, their action is assisted by evaporation, the sun and plant cover.
If you don't know where it is, how can you build something and know that you are not building on top of it?
Some older systems went into the lake or were insufficient and eventually the effluent found its way to the lake. If pollution is a problem, authorities might dye test it. If it goes in the lake, you have to buy a system.
Is it legal to put another dwelling unit on the property?
Another dwelling unit will require the septic system to be properly sized. If you don't know where it is, how can you determine its size?
I would find out how much a new system would cost, deduct that from the purchase price, and see if it is accepted. Without some give by the seller, I would walk away.

 

[LB-1911]

Ok Ive never had a house with a septic tank before and I know almost nothing about them. Well Ive started the process of buying a house with a septic tank.

One of tge things Im planning on doing is building a detached garage and I would hope to have an apartment above for my in laws and guests (its a lakehouse) . This would require tying into the septic. While doing the inspection on the septic Ive had 2 different people come out. They said the pump works and the rank looks good and its flowing but they cant find he drain field since its too deep.

There is a map from the county showing where it is but their probes dont hit it. My first question is this, should I be scared ? Should I walk away? My gut is telling me, if 2 professional septic guys cant find it how do I know its even there and how do I know as soon as we move in and 4 people start using it, its not going to back up every week. Maybe Im being paranoid. Is this normal to not be able to find the drain field? Also if I do go through and buy this place how much of a pain will it be to tie into the septic?

Thanks guys. The first septic inspector came out and said he couldnt find it because it was too deep for his probes so I asked for a second inspector. The second inspector came out and said the same thing. I was livid because the whole reason I had the 2nd guy come out was because the first guy said it was too deep.

Then my realtor asked the owner to have the health department guy to come out but the owner said no.

This threw up a red flag.

We are suppossed to close in 2 weeks and everything has been finalized except for this. I just told my realtor we were walking away from the sale if we couldnt verify the condition of the septic. She just countered that she was going to have the health department guy and the owner of the septic company meet her out there in a day or so to nail this down. Since I have no experience with septic tanks I didnt know if I was over reacting. The lake lot is 1 acre and is located in alexander county in nc. The tank is about twice the size required for the house so I should be able to add on if they will give me permits

As mentioned by a few others - You should contact the County Health Dept.

The Alexander County Environmental Health Department performs as a local representative
of the NC Department of Environment and Natural Resources (NCDENR). Through education of the public and the enforcement of state laws and rules, the goal of the staff is to provide a safer work and play environment for the people of Alexander County.

The areas of service range from the daily inspections of food service facilities, inspections and permitting of wastewater systems, inspections and testing of new private water drinking wells,
and other services.

One of the things they do is -
Evaluations of existing septic systems with regard to addition construction (garages, room additions, swimming pools, storage buildings, etc.) and replacement of one home with another home


http://www.alexanderhealth.org/enviroOSWP.php

Good Luck

 

[myredracer]

I know nothing about the OP's local regulations, but I've designed a few septic systems in the past. I'd be concerned that if the local jurisdiction required required an upgrade for additional capacity, that the regulations could have changed since originally built and be more complex now and that anything new would have to comply with the new regs. On our current house that I got a permit for the septic system in '04, I ended up having to build a pressurized distribution system with raised sand mound (requiring special "C33" sand) which was not cheap. The old system on the property was only about 20' of clay tile in the mostly clay soil here. Regulations have changed a LOT over the years.

Soil type/conditions and perc rates have a huge bearing on drain field/leach field requirements and is often the main consideration. Sometimes perc rates are highly variable on a property and sometimes change little over large geographical areas. Sometimes driving over soil or other activities on it can permanently damage it from compaction and in that case the only thing you can do is remove and replace it. In some cases where there is a high water table or are in a sensitive area (like near a lake), a treatment plant is required which are very expensive.

If it were me, I'd get an engineer or licensed/approved septic system designer to inspect the existing system and render a professional opinion before purchase, including options for expanding the system. There's potentially too much at stake. Would the local AHJ do perc tests and deem it acceptable or not and honor that for a future upgrade?

I noticed the OP referred to a "pump". Is that a lift pump or for a pressurized distribution system?