Septic variance in real life

[bluedog225]

Has anyone gotten a septic variance in real life?

After a couple of test holes to check the soil, I got a bid for $8,000 for traditional septic. We placed the tank and found lots of fluffy white beach sand under a couple of feet of nasty clay.

But when he went to dig the trenches, the clay is 3 1/2 feet deep, then sand. The “rule” is to evaluate the soil at 3’.

I‘ve got a soil engineer’s report that says it’s sand down to 15 feet.

My guy called and they said “no exceptions.”

I was thinking of dropping by and bringing a sample of the sand and the engineer’s report to see if there was any room for discussion. But my impression on septic stuff is they absolutely always go strictly by the book.

The end result is a $16,000 evaporative system with literally tons of rock. I’m off grid so any type of powered system is not an option.

The really annoying part is that the system is going to function like a traditional septic anyway. Some of the sand at the trench site is at 2’ and the water is simply going to sink into the sand. The evaporative system is make believe regulatory pretend.

Has anyone ever had any luck with this sort of thing?

 

[Hank11]

Does your soil engineer (or another one) have the capability to produce a better plan for your septic system?

 

[bluedog225]

The plan isn’t the problem. The issue is the regulations say something like “evaluate the soil at 3’ depth.” My guy is licensed and been doing this for 40 years.

If we can go a foot deeper, it’s all sand.

 

[Firebrick43]

There is no way in hell here you would get a variance for sand.

That is about as bad as can be on the potential for contamination of ground water.

It would have to be a evaporative mound system here as well.

The end result is a $16,000 evaporative system with literally tons of rock. I’m off grid so any type of powered system is not an option.

It isn't their fault your off grid nor do they care if it cost more. They are charged with protecting others from your poo.

The really annoying part is that the system is going to function like a traditional septic anyway. Some of the sand at the trench site is at 2’ and the water is simply going to sink into the sand. The evaporative system is make believe regulatory pretend.

Has anyone ever had any luck with this sort of thing?

It shouldn't be. The bottom should be sealed in an evaporative system. The drain trench around the perimeter isn't for the effluent, its for surface runoff so it doesn't saturated the soil in the field.

 

[turbodave]

Can you grade 6" of soil off the top of the field to get to the depth measurement you need?

 

[PCustoms]

There is no way in hell here you would get a variance for sand.

That is about as bad as can be on the potential for contamination of ground water.

It would have to be a evaporative mound system here as well.


It isn't their fault your off grid nor do they care if it cost more. They are charged with protecting others from your poo.

It shouldn't be. The bottom should be sealed in an evaporative system. The drain trench around the perimeter isn't for the effluent, its for surface runoff so it doesn't saturated the soil in the field.

I'm confused.

I assume if the OP has clay at 3', and that's where he was evaluated, he has a non percolating field.

Had he had gravel/sand, he would have percolated, and I assume been approved for a traditional system?

But his sand is actually 6" deeper then the specified limit.





Grade the topsoil 3' above the sand. Perc again.

 

[manwithtools]

Generally septic inspectors insist that soil inspections and perc tests be done to undisturbed ground. I just went through this...

 

[Firebrick43]

I'm confused.

I assume if the OP has clay at 3', and that's where he was evaluated, he has a non percolating field.

Had he had gravel/sand, he would have percolated, and I assume been approved for a traditional system?

But his sand is actually 6" deeper then the specified limit.





Grade the topsoil 3' above the sand. Perc again.

Because beach sand percolates to well as well as coarse gravels.

Gravity septic systems have to have goldilocks soil to function correctly. If the soil is too dense the effluent just sets there and creates a morass and there is the possibility of not enough air getting to bacteria in the field.

This is why chambers have become so common as they can be shallower, more surface area, and offer better air compared to perforated pipes in gravel.

On the other hand, if the soils perc too well the effluent just drops right into the water table without sufficient time to be processed by the bacteria or filtered through the much finer soil structures of loam and light clays.

As manwithtools stated the perc test and core sampling by a soil engineer is done first here.

 

[bluedog225]

It’s clay on top with at least 15 feet of sand below. Usually around here it’s sand on top of clay.

The water is 450 feet down. I don’t think water contamination is in play.

My understanding is the inspectors want to see sand at 3’. I have sand at 4’.

I like the grading idea but am pretty sure it’s prohibited.

 

[Sumboodie]

Put afoot of sand?

8k for septic.... ouch!

The one we did was around $1500 for the tank and materials. Probably 2-2.5k now as this was pre flu.

 

[Firebrick43]

It’s clay on top with at least 15 feet of sand below. Usually around here it’s sand on top of clay.

The water is 450 feet down. I don’t think water contamination is in play.

My understanding is the inspectors want to see sand at 3’. I have sand at 4’.

I like the grading idea but am pretty sure it’s prohibited.

It doesn't matter how far water is down. The problem is once your below 3' or so there is little oxygen for aerobic bacteria to interact with the effluent and break it down for safety. If its not broken down it may take a while to get deep but get there it will eventually. And many times water doesn't move down but sideways in strata, polluting your neighbors water.

 

[PCustoms]

@Firebrick43 some of what you're posting seems to contradict how the majority of the septics I've been around are constructed. I believe all the fields I've seen are deeper then 3'.

It really sounds like the OP is describing the perc test. Last I looked in the north east (and GF was a wastewater designer who would have been residential septic certified with a simple exam) there was a specific depth and percolation rate required for a traditional setup. Not much else.

 

[Firebrick43]

@Firebrick43 some of what you're posting seems to contradict how the majority of the septics I've been around are constructed. I believe all the fields I've seen are deeper then 3'.

Yes, A lot of older fields are. They are learned a lot in 30 years. Fields here in Indiana are rarely set below 30" now days. Mound evaporative systems were not common at all 30 years ago as well and you see them everywhere here depending on soil structures.

It really sounds like the OP is describing the perc test. Last I looked in the north east (and GF was a wastewater designer who would have been residential septic certified with a simple exam) there was a specific depth and percolation rate required for a traditional setup. Not much else.

When I took my exam and got my septic licsence a few years ago a lot of the changes were just coming into effect. The beach sand/gravel perc'ing to fast was a large portion of many discussions for those up in Lake county Indiana (Southeast of Chicago)

They are putting in sewer system because of the issue.

Calumet Township Septic Tank Elimination Project (STEP)

The Calumet Septic Tank Elimination Project (STEP) is an effort by Lake County to provide sanitary sewer service to a currently unserved area of unincorporated Calumet Township.

calumetstep.com

 

[liliysdad]

I have no advice, but every time I read one of these threads I sure am thankful I live somewhere with minimal oversight.

Best of luck to you.

 

[MikeC55]

I had a B100A test done a few months ago for a full septic system replacement (in CT), which includes a perc test and digging 4 test holes (backhoe), in area of proposed leach field, to see if/how deep there is an impermeable layer (clay, rock). In my case, they found ledge at various depths. My understanding is, the impermeable layer average depth needs to be some minimum below the surface. Since mine didn't meet this minimum, I'm going to have to bring in fill for the leach field to make it meet that minimum depth.

 

[Firebrick43]

I had a B100A test done a few months ago for a full septic system replacement (in CT), which includes a perc test and digging 4 test holes (backhoe), in area of proposed leach field, to see if/how deep there is an impermeable layer (clay, rock). In my case, they found ledge at various depths. My understanding is, the impermeable layer average depth needs to be some minimum below the surface. Since mine didn't meet this minimum, I'm going to have to bring in fill for the leach field to make it meet that minimum depth.

Around here your issue is the most common. I had to add 12" fill to my field as the top of the lo pro chambers would be at ground level without it.

 

[PCustoms]

I just scanned the VT regulations again and the basic requirements appear to be a minimum of 24" of soil with a minimum perc rate.

There's also setbacks from multiple structures/natural areas.

This was important for me to know as a basic system was 5-10k, a mound was $30k. Knowing what the lot was or would be approved for knocked a lot of cheap lots off the shopping list. Mounds seems to be gaining popularity here as they work, and they make people money. But if you've got a good lot traditional systems are still being installed.


As for the OP, I guess it depends. I'd have a conversation with someone in the approval department about what your are seeing and get their thoughts. If it's like Firebrick43 described you're probably SOL, but if it's like other states you'll get approved.

 

[Firebrick43]

I just scanned the VT regulations again and the basic requirements appear to be a minimum of 24" of soil with a minimum perc rate.

There's also setbacks from multiple structures/natural areas.

This was important for me to know as a basic system was 5-10k, a mound was $30k. Knowing what the lot was or would be approved foe knocked a lot of cheap lots of the shopping list. Mounds seems to be gaining popularity here as they work, and they make people money. But if you've got a good lot traditional systems are still being installed.

None of the installers I have talked to at the required continuing education classes want to install mound systems no matter the money, they are a pain for them as well as the owner.

Most have embraced fingers with chambers over fingers with perf pipe and stone systems because of the ease of install, but other wise want to sell a simple system not something they will have to probably open up and wade in poo in the future.

Ironically septic stone here has gotten expensive enough that chambers are about even in material cost and cheaper in installation labor.

 

[manwithtools]

I just had 500 feet of new septic drain field installed due to pool construction intruding on the original drain field. All dug at 24", then EZflow tile installed, back fill over the top. I'm on very level ground. No stone or gravel was required. I was thankful for this method. Tri axle loads of stone would have destroyed the yard even more than it already is.

EZflow septic

 

[bb29510]

one of the problem with the sand is lack of color. the white indicate that this is your perch water table because the color has been wash out over the last billion years, you be better with the three foot elevation and then when you install, over dig and add gravel

 

[bluedog225]

I’m going to ask the site inspector out for another look. We’ve got the big backhoe with the 3’ bucket onsite. And can dig around with him to see what’s up and discuss options.

 

[PCustoms]

I’m going to ask the site inspector out for another look. We’ve got the big backhoe with the 3’ bucket onsite. And can dig around with him to see what’s up and discuss options.

Will the septic engineer be there at the same time?

 

[Firebrick43]

I just had 500 feet of new septic drain field installed due to pool construction intruding on the original drain field. All dug at 24", then EZflow tile installed, back fill over the top. I'm on very level ground. No stone or gravel was required. I was thankful for this method. Tri axle loads of stone would have destroyed the yard even more than it already is.

EZflow septic

Did they allow them to be put in as shown?

We can use the EZflow in sand mounds if they are touching side by side and a sheet of Geotextile filter cloth is put over.

If we want to use them in the ground we have to use Infiltrators “Infiltrator ATL” which has a Geotextile mesh condom they call a conduit over the ezflow product. It has to have 6” of spec 23 sand underneath and back filled with spec 23 sand to the top of the pipe.

Up in lake county they will almost always spec a Presby system which is another infiltrator product but instead of styrofoam chunks it has a special green mesh fabric around the inner pipe and the Geotextile on the out side

 

[manwithtools]

It was directly buried in the sate shown in the following picture. I will say I have spectacular soil vs what is normally found in middle TN.

 

[bluedog225]

Will the septic engineer be there at the same time?

The guy licensed to install septic will be there. Not sure if they call them engineers here.

He wants to chat with the guy.

 

[reader2580]

Put afoot of sand?

8k for septic.... ouch!

The one we did was around $1500 for the tank and materials. Probably 2-2.5k now as this was pre flu.

Where is this you can get a septic system installed for $2,000 to $2,500?

I expect just the design work and permits would cost that much here. A mound system is around $20,000 installed here. My house had a new mound septic system installed just before I bought it. I was able to get copies of all of the design paperwork and permits from city hall. It was part of the reason I bought the house.

 

[bb29510]

mine was $1300 but that was 2005

 

[Sumboodie]

Design work and permits is something unique to your area. None of that is a thing here.
Not sure what HAVING it installed would cost, had no reason to pay someone to do work we easily did in 2 evenings.

Can fill out a DEC form if you want to have it in "the system" (easier to sell the place later) but it's just a record of your setup.

Otherwise dig hole, install tank and the drain feild and fill. Costs are the tank, piping, maybe a load of drain rock. And I guess excavator rental if you don't have one already.

The state even has a guide for how to install a setup for homeowners. Quite common as many folks are self sufficient.

 

[speed bump]

I would bet you will probably need an engineered design to deviate from what the book says. I needed for my system not because it was anything special but because I want to bedrooms and my system was never permitted so I had to show the existing system design was adequate for what I had and not harming the environment, they also took care of what it would take to upgrade the system. Cost was about $5k last year.

 

[walta]

I have no advice, but every time I read one of these threads I sure am thankful I live somewhere with minimal oversight.

Best of luck to you.

Not sure I would want to live someplace where sewage treatment was optional.

Walta

 

[bb29510]

some of the rural housing just dump in a ditch or swamp land. our county has a offical swamp land dump, it feeds the gators

 

[ncornilsen]

You might contact Orenco Systems, inc... they're able to put in Alternative systems that are usually much, much lower on up-front costs than mound or sandfilter systems, and work better.

 

[dcg9381]

I've played this game. Not with the sand issue, but often we've had to dig multiple test holes at 3' to find the right "spot" where we can pass the test. But once that's inspected, we're good to go (assuming that the septic has an engineers stamp).

We don't start installing before we've passed the test, have a stamped design, and that design is approved. They are super-strict on septic here (near a lake).

I agree with others, non-traditional septic design might be an option, but you'll have to ask an engineer. They're not going to issue a variance on fundamental requirements.

 

[walta]

some of the rural housing just dump in a ditch or swamp land. our county has a offical swamp land dump, it feeds the gators

Care to tell us what state it is you live in?

I will make sure to plan my vacations accordingly.

My guess is every state has a law requiring proper sanitation and your local government has chosen not to enforce the law.

Seems like one of the TV news shows did a story about unenforced sanitation requirements. If you enforce the rules poor people don’t have the money for a proper system! You force them off the land they own and make them homeless or you allow them to stay and contaminate the neighboring wells making them and neighbors kids sick.

Walta