Cletus Hungwell
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- Jun 23, 2015
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Service Upgrade
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Service upgrade and questions
- Thread starter Cletus Hungwell
- Start date
Mustang51js
Well-known member
You would have to get a 300 or 400 amp meter pan if you want the double lug
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
First off, i wouldnt want that much unfused wire running from the meter to the panel in the garage. And your AHJ might not be ok with it either.
I would put a 200 meter main, that has a 200a disconnect, on the pole. U will need a 4-wire feeder ran to the garage panel.
Is the panel in the closet a new addition? If so, panels cannot be in closets...
I would put a 200 meter main, that has a 200a disconnect, on the pole. U will need a 4-wire feeder ran to the garage panel.
Is the panel in the closet a new addition? If so, panels cannot be in closets...
traumadoc2b
Well-known member
Welcome to the GJ forums. I have a little bit of experience with this, and can add that Wylie has good advice - he helped me quite a bit.
First off, I think changing your service from overhead to underground is a good idea. Why not just have the lateral (underground feed) go directly from the transformer pole to the garage? If you can make the garage the service entrance and you can place the new meter can adjacent to or just opposite the exterior wall from the main panel in the garage, then you don't need to worry about having a separate disconnect. And yeah, the disconnect and meter socket/can are usually separate. Not only does the disconnect protect the energized cable downstream, but it also provides a means to turn it off to allow for work or in case of a problem.
Ditto on Wylie's comment about the panel in the closet. If you can run all the branch circuits back to the garage, that might be better. Make sure all of your splices (if you need to) are in UL listed boxes and that those boxes remain accessible (can't be behind drywall, etc).
Do you know what kind of conduit that 1.5" is that you've got? I'd suggest running THHN/THWN through it, which is copper that's rated for outside and underground, moisture/weather resistant, etc. I just re-did my feeder to the house which was aluminum SER, underground (at least a short stretch) and in rigid metal conduit. I replaced it with THHN in SCH 80 PVC.
Is 60 amps enough for both the barns? Figure you pretty much just have lights, right? Any electric heat? Might want to think about upsizing those panels, if it makes sense, before you get started. That will also determine if 200 amp service is enough. I up'd mine to 320 continuous (400 amp) with parallel 200 amp panels - one for the shop, one for the house. It probably won't make a big difference on the PoCo side, as long as the transformer is big enough, but they should be able to easily check that based upon the pole number/location.
How many circuits do you have in the house now, including those in the closet subpanel?
First off, I think changing your service from overhead to underground is a good idea. Why not just have the lateral (underground feed) go directly from the transformer pole to the garage? If you can make the garage the service entrance and you can place the new meter can adjacent to or just opposite the exterior wall from the main panel in the garage, then you don't need to worry about having a separate disconnect. And yeah, the disconnect and meter socket/can are usually separate. Not only does the disconnect protect the energized cable downstream, but it also provides a means to turn it off to allow for work or in case of a problem.
Ditto on Wylie's comment about the panel in the closet. If you can run all the branch circuits back to the garage, that might be better. Make sure all of your splices (if you need to) are in UL listed boxes and that those boxes remain accessible (can't be behind drywall, etc).
Do you know what kind of conduit that 1.5" is that you've got? I'd suggest running THHN/THWN through it, which is copper that's rated for outside and underground, moisture/weather resistant, etc. I just re-did my feeder to the house which was aluminum SER, underground (at least a short stretch) and in rigid metal conduit. I replaced it with THHN in SCH 80 PVC.
Is 60 amps enough for both the barns? Figure you pretty much just have lights, right? Any electric heat? Might want to think about upsizing those panels, if it makes sense, before you get started. That will also determine if 200 amp service is enough. I up'd mine to 320 continuous (400 amp) with parallel 200 amp panels - one for the shop, one for the house. It probably won't make a big difference on the PoCo side, as long as the transformer is big enough, but they should be able to easily check that based upon the pole number/location.
How many circuits do you have in the house now, including those in the closet subpanel?
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
OP- your posts are a little winded but Ive studied them a bit.
There is no NEC code pertaining to a max distance of unfused wire but many AHJ have local rules limiting the length. Regardless, its not a good idea to have much more than a few feet, say from the meter pan into the main service directly behind the pan.
Yes a metermain is a combination meter pan and either a single main disconnect, dual disconnects or a metermain load center with meter pan and branch breakers. It is 2 sections that are bolted together. U could also get a meter pan with dual lugs- typically rated for 400a(320a continous) service like what traumadoc did...
What kind of loads do u have in the barns?
Traumadoc has several good suggestions.
U do have several options here:
A) Have the PoCo give u a new 200a service lateral underground and mount your meter pan on the garage on the other side of the wall behind your main service panel. Run a new feeder from the service panel inside the garage through the wall and out to your barn. This option is a bit more work because u would have to drill several holes in the wall and u will loose 2 spaces in your panel.
b) Upgrade to 400a service and get a dual 200a disconnect meter main (or dual lug and mount a 200a fused disconnect next to the meter pan labeled barn)...one disconnect or lug feeds house, other feeds barns...
C) get a meter main load center and extend your circuits out to the outside panel. Feed for barns comes right off the side of the surface mounted panel. This is probably the most work but combines everything.
Whatever u do, i would get rid of the closet panel ESPECIALLY since its a FPE, which are known fire hazards...Eaton CH are good panels with CU bus bars!
Im guessing everything is old 3-wire so it will need to be pulled out and replaced with 4-wire feeders. The key is 3-wire to first disconnect, 4-wire after that...
1.5" conduit is gonna be too small for anything over about #2 AL. And 200' is a good distance.
U will probably have to change the conduit depending on the ampacity of the feeder..
So figure out what setup youre gonna do, then post back with wire lengths and we can help u size the wire!!
Traumadoc- thats good u replaced that AL SER. SER shouldnt be ran undrground.
There is no NEC code pertaining to a max distance of unfused wire but many AHJ have local rules limiting the length. Regardless, its not a good idea to have much more than a few feet, say from the meter pan into the main service directly behind the pan.
Yes a metermain is a combination meter pan and either a single main disconnect, dual disconnects or a metermain load center with meter pan and branch breakers. It is 2 sections that are bolted together. U could also get a meter pan with dual lugs- typically rated for 400a(320a continous) service like what traumadoc did...
What kind of loads do u have in the barns?
Traumadoc has several good suggestions.
U do have several options here:
A) Have the PoCo give u a new 200a service lateral underground and mount your meter pan on the garage on the other side of the wall behind your main service panel. Run a new feeder from the service panel inside the garage through the wall and out to your barn. This option is a bit more work because u would have to drill several holes in the wall and u will loose 2 spaces in your panel.
b) Upgrade to 400a service and get a dual 200a disconnect meter main (or dual lug and mount a 200a fused disconnect next to the meter pan labeled barn)...one disconnect or lug feeds house, other feeds barns...
C) get a meter main load center and extend your circuits out to the outside panel. Feed for barns comes right off the side of the surface mounted panel. This is probably the most work but combines everything.
Whatever u do, i would get rid of the closet panel ESPECIALLY since its a FPE, which are known fire hazards...Eaton CH are good panels with CU bus bars!
Im guessing everything is old 3-wire so it will need to be pulled out and replaced with 4-wire feeders. The key is 3-wire to first disconnect, 4-wire after that...
1.5" conduit is gonna be too small for anything over about #2 AL. And 200' is a good distance.
U will probably have to change the conduit depending on the ampacity of the feeder..
So figure out what setup youre gonna do, then post back with wire lengths and we can help u size the wire!!
Traumadoc- thats good u replaced that AL SER. SER shouldnt be ran undrground.
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Maximum circuit load in the barns, combined is around 75 amps. That would be dead of winter, with all lights on and tank heaters at full draw. One barn is wired with a 220 (previous owner had a plasma cutter). I'm not planning on using it, but I will leave it wired in the off chance I need to do some emergency welding.
If I decide to go with a 200a meter, is it okay to use a meter main load center on the side of the house and keep the garage panel?
Load center would be small, something with 8 circuits or so. One circuit to the house, one to the barns. The garage panel would essentially become a subpanel. That way I wouldn't have to re-wire everything to the outside.
yes it would become a subpanel like u said. U need to make sure the feeder to it is 4-wire. Also need to make sure the neutral bar is isolated from the ground bar and panel enclosure. What brand is the garage panel? Hopefully not FPE(federal pacific)!
It sounds like u probably dont need 400a service.
Do u have any electric appliances other than the tanks in the barns? (AC, heat, range, oven, dryer h2o heater, etc)
traumadoc2b
Well-known member
Yeah, sounds like the simplest option may include a disconnect at the meter/service entrance, then keeping the garage panel where it is located and isolating neutrals and ground, like Wylie said, making it a subpanel. Running the lateral directly to the house and putting the service entrance there will save you on the cost of the new utility pole, make it look cleaner without having overhead lines, and will make it more dependable without having to worry about a tree taking down your service drop or maintaining a weatherhead.
You should probably check with the PoCo - they will probably provide the meter, but not the box that you mount it in.
I would still consider running the lateral to the outside of the garage, or however makes it so that the distance from the disconnects to the barn and the garage is the shortest distance possible. This will help you save cost on labor and feeder cable.
If the barns pull more than 60 amp combined, I would seriously consider running 100 amp to the first sub in the horse barn. Remember, just because you have 60 amp in the horse barn and 60 amp in the pole barn doesn't mean you can draw 120 amp. Since the pole barn is a subpanel from the horse barn, it can't draw more than the total amperage for the horse barn.
You should probably check with the PoCo - they will probably provide the meter, but not the box that you mount it in.
I would still consider running the lateral to the outside of the garage, or however makes it so that the distance from the disconnects to the barn and the garage is the shortest distance possible. This will help you save cost on labor and feeder cable.
If the barns pull more than 60 amp combined, I would seriously consider running 100 amp to the first sub in the horse barn. Remember, just because you have 60 amp in the horse barn and 60 amp in the pole barn doesn't mean you can draw 120 amp. Since the pole barn is a subpanel from the horse barn, it can't draw more than the total amperage for the horse barn.
traumadoc2b
Well-known member
You can also plan to take whatever you pull out - panels, metal conduit, wiring and cable - to a scrap metal recycler. At 200' to the barn you might have $50 or more in scrap between everything.
traumadoc2b
Well-known member
You probably won't have a lot of choices on the meter socket (box, pan, can). Not all meters are exactly the same, so just check with the PoCo to see if they have any limitations. I bought a Millbank from one of the big box stores. It seemed reasonably priced and good quality. There's really not much to it.
I'd focus more on buying good circuit panels - a quality brand with copper bus, like Wylie said, and plenty of spaces on the bus bars.
Your electrician might be able to get a better deal, wholesale. They might also mark it up when they charge you. I'd at least ask, if you're hiring someone to do the work anyway.
I'd focus more on buying good circuit panels - a quality brand with copper bus, like Wylie said, and plenty of spaces on the bus bars.
Your electrician might be able to get a better deal, wholesale. They might also mark it up when they charge you. I'd at least ask, if you're hiring someone to do the work anyway.