Service Upgrade

[GarageLogic]

Bought what is our "buy and die" house....last time we plan on moving.....hopefully.....

Plan on getting several bids on upgrading service from 100 amps to 200, but wanted to get some opinions from others that have done this.

It appears that the panel itself won't need to be replaced, just the main breaker, meter and maybe the wiring to the mast (electric company will replace the wire from the mast to the pole as part of their services).

Based on the pictures, what am I looking at? Full panel replacement or less than that? There is also a sub panel that the owner might have installed and may not be code compliant. The wiring from the mast to the breaker is 2 AWG.

FYI, the reason for the upgrade is I plan to build a shop and add at least one 15 amp circuit and two 20 amps. Maybe a 30 amp later on.....

 

[Stuff]

Sub definitely wrong as grounds and neutrals need split.

Most likely your main panel can not accept a 200 amp main breaker - check the labels.

Better to bit the bullet and get a new bigger panel - combine if you can. Have extra spaces for the EV chargers.

 

[Evan(CA)]

GJ is so overkill when it comes to electrical. Chances are your 100a panel will work just fine even with the few new loads to the shop. It's like owning an f150 and needing to trailer something and without even trying to see if your truck is capable immediately going out and buying an f350 dually. Damn near every panel in my city and surrounding cities is a 100a panel with all electric appliances in the home, they have run just fine for 60 years. They are zinsco so they are all slowly getting replaced but not because of the amperage, plenty of people leave them at 100a. In general things are getting more efficient, not less. If you decide to get an EV down the road upgrade the panel then.

The sub does need the grounds and neutrals isolated and the grounding strap removed from the neutral bar.

 

[ddawg16]

If the sub panel is in an attached structure then the grounds and neutrals together is ok.

The existing pane does not look bad. Taking the sub into consideration, it looks like the issue is just the # of available breakers.

I don't know if you can change out your main breaker for a larger one. My gut feeling is NO.

My 200A panel is rated for 20/40 ckts. This means I have 20 spaces, but I can use double breakers...i.e., 2 breakers per slot.

I'm one of those who likes to keep the number of loads on a breaker low....not because of load but because it's easier to troubleshoot/isolate issues.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Bought what is our "buy and die" house....last time we plan on moving.....hopefully.....

Plan on getting several bids on upgrading service from 100 amps to 200, but wanted to get some opinions from others that have done this.

How do you know you need a service upgrade?

What does your service currently pull on a constant basis?

Without a load calc, there is no way to know if your service needs an upgrade. I would do one first before spending all that money...

What electric loads do you currently have? heat, ac, water heater, stove, oven, dryer, or?

It appears that the panel itself won't need to be replaced, just the main breaker, meter and maybe the wiring to the mast (electric company will replace the wire from the mast to the pole as part of their services).

That panel may not accept a larger breaker and the buss may not be rated for 200a.

The #2 cu is too small for 200a as well. Will need 2/0 cu or 4/0 al...

Based on the pictures, what am I looking at? Full panel replacement or less than that? There is also a sub panel that the owner might have installed and may not be code compliant. The wiring from the mast to the breaker is 2 AWG.

yes the subpanel is wired wrong especially being in the same structure.

Need a ground bar kit and need to remove the bonding ******** the neutral bar. The grounds on the neutral bar need to be moved over to the new ground bar.

FYI, the reason for the upgrade is I plan to build a shop and add at least one 15 amp circuit and two 20 amps. Maybe a 30 amp later on.....

Again, load calcs are the key here...

If the sub panel is in an attached structure then the grounds and neutrals together is ok.

Incorrect.

Bonded neutral in attached structure subpanel has NEVER been allowed. You must be thinking of detached structures and code no longer permits bonded neutrals in those either as of 2008 code cycle....

 

[Bretny]

You need to talk to an electrician in your area. Replacing the 100a main pannel is prob what there going to do if they replace the service.

 

[mike93lx]

Aside from the good advice provided, are you sure the power company will change the overhead? Usually they don't.

 

[sberry]

I agree, you don't need to upgrade to add a couple circuits for garage work.

 

[ddawg16]

......

Bonded neutral in attached structure subpanel has NEVER been allowed. You must be thinking of detached structures and code no longer permits bonded neutrals in those either as of 2008 code cycle....

Thanks for the correction....for some reason I was thinking a sub-panel in the same structure could have the neut and grounds on the same buss bar.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks for the correction....for some reason I was thinking a sub-panel in the same structure could have the neut and grounds on the same buss bar.

Yeah a bonded neutral in a subpanel in the same structure has the potential to be dangerous.

 

[sberry]

It creates an alternative pathway for neutral currents. With a 4 wire system it keeps the operating current on insulated wire all the way back to the main.
The grounds keep everything in the building and system at the same potential. Even during a fault since it's grounded none of it really has a significant voltage rise, a little on the ground wire due to its impedance. This is a simplified version, the genius types are certainly free to elaborate.
My own understanding is rather basic,,,, I don't really care much beyond where to hook the wire and how big it needs to be.

 

[yeldogt]

IMO -- I would hold off until you are ready to proceed w/ the shop. Things change and you may want to do things differently.

In my area the electric company will provide a new drop line if the current one is not up to the new service requirements.

I also agree that people are too "electric" . It's not an illogical decision to upgrade to 200amp when the current equipment is in need of replacement .. as long as that can be done w/o a lot of modification ... and you need the power. But most people don't need 200amp for simple garage in a typical house.

Years ago I built a studio and it was easier and cheaper to move the service over to the studio building and run the line to the house's existing panel. I had to dig between the buildings anyway .. this way nothing was disturbed inside and 100amp at the house was enough. It also made adding an generator easier

Also -- depending on where the line comes into the house. You can do a meter w/ included small load center .. they do that often at the beach. They look like a large meter pan .. so not good if service is on the front of the house. The existing meter is replaced and the wire to the existing panel is connected to the new breaker outside in the new meter box. -- the second breaker takes care of the new panel wherever it is.

 

[sberry]

I am all about installing another panel if it's practical. Get some more spaces, carry all the currents down a larger wire, moves the breakers to a local spot, makes secondary runs easy and short and with today's prices it can be economical.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It creates an alternative pathway for neutral currents. With a 4 wire system it keeps the operating current on insulated wire all the way back to the main.
The grounds keep everything in the building and system at the same potential. Even during a fault since it's grounded none of it really has a significant voltage rise, a little on the ground wire due to its impedance. This is a simplified version, the genius types are certainly free to elaborate.
My own understanding is rather basic,,,, I don't really care much beyond where to hook the wire and how big it needs to be.

You actually summed it up very well. not really anything to add

Many on here just need a basic explanation like you did....

good job......

 

[Bob P1]

I don't think the OP is talking about 200amps for his garage(correct me if I am wrong).
His whole house and shop has 100amps, which may have been ok in the 1970's, 80, 90. Now a days 200amps is the general standard. When I had mine replaced new service from the pole, new meter box, new 200amp box and two new grounding rods. Wasn't cheap, but worth every penny IMO.

 

[Bob P1]

I don't think the OP is talking about 200amps for his garage(correct me if I am wrong).
His whole house and shop has 100amps, which may have been ok in the 1970's, 80, 90. Now a days 200amps is the general standard. When I had mine replaced new service from the pole, new meter box, new 200amp box and two new grounding rods. Wasn't cheap, but worth every penny IMO.

 

[mike93lx]

I don't think the OP is talking about 200amps for his garage(correct me if I am wrong).
His whole house and shop has 100amps, which may have been ok in the 1970's, 80, 90. Now a days 200amps is the general standard. When I had mine replaced new service from the pole, new meter box, new 200amp box and two new grounding rods. Wasn't cheap, but worth every penny IMO.

My entire house and garage do just fine on 100amps and my panel is less than 4 years old. No needn't to upgrade if it isn't needed.

I even just this winter replaced everything on the exterior of the house and kept 100a.

New builds are worth the incremental cost to move up, but replacing what is working just for the sake of doing it doesn't make sense

 

[Bob P1]

All depends on what you do in your shop, compressors, welders, heaters, etc.
An "upgrade" is an upgrade, I agree shouldn't do it for the sake of it.

 

[GarageLogic]

Thanks for all the replies. I would rather not upgrade if I don't have to, for sure.

The load for the house is pretty typical - A/C in the summer, electric oven, microwave, lights, washer, dryer, etc. No electric space heaters, no whirlpool tub, hot tub, etc. Gas furnace and water heater.

There is a pool at the house and I have no idea what kind of electrical draw that introduces (never had a pool and don't know how the mechanicals work). If we don't use it much this first summer, it will get filled in.

Shop will have a compressor that runs fine on a 20A circuit at my old place, table saw, jointer, LED lights, etc. Gas heat, maybe a window A/C unit. Only running one tool at a time. Might put a lift in if $$ allows.

There is room in the 100 amp panel to add several more breakers, so good there.

As far as the sub panel, it is mounted about 16" away from the main panel. I thought it was odd that no ground appeared to connect the two.

What exactly would I have to do to make it as safe as possible? I get basic wiring, but don't quite follow the info above.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks for all the replies. I would rather not upgrade if I don't have to, for sure.

The load for the house is pretty typical - A/C in the summer, electric oven, microwave, lights, washer, dryer, etc. No electric space heaters, no whirlpool tub, hot tub, etc. Gas furnace and water heater.

There is a pool at the house and I have no idea what kind of electrical draw that introduces (never had a pool and don't know how the mechanicals work). If we don't use it much this first summer, it will get filled in.

Shop will have a compressor that runs fine on a 20A circuit at my old place, table saw, jointer, LED lights, etc. Gas heat, maybe a window A/C unit. Only running one tool at a time. Might put a lift in if $$ allows.

There is room in the 100 amp panel to add several more breakers, so good there.

As far as the sub panel, it is mounted about 16" away from the main panel. I thought it was odd that no ground appeared to connect the two.

What exactly would I have to do to make it as safe as possible? I get basic wiring, but don't quite follow the info above.

See the wiring diagram in comment #3 on the electrical FAQs here:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356460

 

[nadogail]

You could invite a local electrical contractor to a cup of coffee, and then seek a separate second opinion.

Believe it or not, my local building department and electrical utility were very helpful when we did a service upgrade at my house.

 

[Bert_]

Simplest and cheapest would be install 200a meter w/main breaker. Leave existing 100a panel in house, put a second 100a panel in shop fed from meter.

Obviously the panel in the house is fine as it is load wise, so why change it.

All this is assuming you even need a 200a service in the first place...

 

[sberry]

You actually summed it up very well. not really anything to add

Many on here just need a basic explanation like you did....

good job......

Thanks, I read your work here too.