Setting grade for pole barn

[AA7483]

I'm having a pole barn built in a few months and am getting ready to get my lot level. My concrete contractor asked that I put down 5 inches of crushed concrete so its all ready to go once the barn goes up. I'm getting a load of dirt and a few loads of crushed concrete so I can level the space and build up my base material. My brother in law is bringing his skid steer down so we can complete the task. My question is, not being too familiar with grading, what is the best way to establish grade? A transit level? Do I drive stake in and use a string level? How exactly is this accomplished?

Thank you!

 

[kd3pc]

the easiest is a laser level with an audible story pole. Might be pricey for one time use...but it is simple to use and pretty solid performance.

 

[chaosracing]

Easiest is a transit and story pole, but you need someone to hold the stick and someone to look thru the transit. Second easiest is a laser level and story pole with audible reciever on it. You can find both on ebay pretty cheap. Might be able to find some on craigslist. Or check local rental yards as well. My local rental place charges $26 per day for standard set up and $64 per day for the laser set up.

 

[tomroblee]

You may want to have a three way conversation with your builder and concrete man. I had an Amish crew handle my building---including the concrete work. My site wasn't level, so I had a site work contractor haul in rock and level a pad.

The builders wanted to place the skirt board on grade, then fill the area to within 4" of the top of the skirt boards with crushed stone. They poured the slab on top, using the skirt board for a form. They preferred to have the crushed stone hauled to the site and left in a pile so that they could move, level, and compact in in their preferred manner.

 

[machsnell]

Rent a laser level if possible or borrow one. Easy and makes it a one man job. Site level isn't as accurate (as a good laser) and you need 2 people.

Draw a rectangle (building footprint) on a sheet of paper and label your lowest existing grade corner of building a 100.00.

Then go find out the other elevations. Say your grade rod read 3.20 feet at your lowest corner (elevation 100.00) and your next corner read 2.20 feet on grade rod. You would label that corner 101.00.

Remember when the number on grade rod goes up that means your elevation went down. It gets confusing when you first start laying out.

Do this for all corners. Then you can come up with an average grade that works for your driveway approach and the surrounding areas for water run off etc.

It really let's you understand what you have because they eye cam be deceiving.

Once you have your grade set of say 101.50. Drive stakes at your corners so you can mark your finish grade on them. Drive them deep so you can pull string tightly from corner to corner. If longer than 30 foot sides drive an extra stake or two so you don't have drop in stringline.

Also you might want to use a tape measure or a grade rod that is in inches instead of tenths. Unless you are good reading and dealing in tenths. Tenths is much better and easier once you know it but it will confuse the rookie.

Set your stakes 2 feet outside corners/edges of building slab so bobcat has room to grade. Also you want your stone pad graded and rolled outside the edge of slab anyway.

If you want a 5 inch slab and 6 inches of stone them just take a string from edge to edge and measure down 11 inches to get you subgrade in tight then spread your stone in so that it is dead nuts 5 inches from finish and your builder or concrete man will be pleased. Check grade every 10 or 15 feet. Paint on the dirt or stone +2 or -1 etc so you can see how much am area needs to go up or down to get to grade.

Also remember don't fill dirt or stone any more than 4 inches at a time unless you have a big big roller. Keep stone moist to tighten well and roll the dirt and the stone well.



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[topp64]

machsnell that was a mighty fine explanation for establishing grade. OP if you follow those steps you"ll be in good shape. Working with 10ths or 100ths of a foot is a lot easier than fractions, but it can be confusing at first. I usually do 4 ft offsets if there's room, just what I'm used to.

 

[small&rusty]

The easiest way to set grade, would be to shoot your building site either with a sight level or laser level. Find the high spot and add a couple of inches, let say 4" you want your slab higher than existing grade for positive drainage. Next pick a location off to the side and drive a concrete stake or t-stake in the ground until its at your 4" above existing grade. The top of that stake is now the top of slab, so simply subtract slab thickness, foam, and crushed concrete to establish how deep you'll need to excavate out your site.

Example: 4" slab 2" foam 5" crushed concrete. Add these thicknesses together for a total of 11". Now zero your laser off the grade stake, and subtract 11" off the rod. Thats how far your need to dig down, before you add crushed concrete.

When you start bringing in crush, add 5 inches back on the rod so you know how much material to bring in. When you shoot your elevations, pick 10 or more different spots all around your prep area, if your within an inch on the low side call it good, you dont want to be high. When your prep work is done you should be 6" below the top of the grade stake.

 

[bullnerd]

So your going to ADD fill to the area the building is going on?

I'm with tomroblee, talk to the builder.

My builder specified how flat the area had to be, it didn't have to be very flat for a pole barn, but free of organic matter, topsoil, etc.

Then the building was put up,

Then the crushed was placed inside to the correct level for the concrete and compacted in lifts.

If you place the crushed first, when they drill/dig the holes all the dirt from the hole will spill onto your nice crushed area, and wont be compacted anymore.

Only 5 yrs, but no cracks anywhere.

BTW, this was a Pioneer building, they've done quite a few.

 

[chaosracing]

So your going to ADD fill to the area the building is going on?

I'm with tomroblee, talk to the builder.

My builder specified how flat the area had to be, it didn't have to be very flat for a pole barn, but free of organic matter, topsoil, etc.

Then the building was put up,

Then the crushed was placed inside to the correct level for the concrete and compacted in lifts.

If you place the crushed first, when they drill/dig the holes all the dirt from the hole will spill onto your nice crushed area, and wont be compacted anymore.

Only 5 yrs, but no cracks anywhere.

BTW, this was a Pioneer building, they've done quite a few.

Pioneer does NOT build all of their stuff themselves, they sub out most to other contractors. And what they do build is done poorly I just talked to a concrete guy about my pole building project and had it been Pioneer, he said he would not give me a quote. He did a few and they all had settling problems at the poles. Don't believe me, look on You Tube for pioneer pole buildings and they show exactly what you are saying that they do not do. In fact, I would like to see the end results from the one they show on that because it was poorly site graded.

They claim they want to remove all organic material, yet buried alot of organics. Then drilled thru everything anyway for the poles.

 

[chaosracing]

Different site from Pioneer, but still drilling thru the stone fill base.

And after rewatching the video, you would think they would be smart enough to dump/shovel the spoils OUTSIDE the building footprint, not inside.

 

[brycez28]

I like using my smartleveler for measuring grade. It is basically a fancy water level and measures change in elevation from the base to the digital gauge. http://smartleveler.com/

 

[machsnell]

For any grade guys if you have never used a lenker rod...get one!

They are the shite! It will change your life and cut your time shooting grade by 90 percent. Long story short it does the math for you. You set your bench at any given value. Say 100.00 or whatever matches plans you have.

Then to get the 101.21 you just move it down 1.21 and bam...set the beeper on the mark in the air and mark grade. On to the next.

No moving the receiver, no looking at the stick being at a 3.23 and that equals a 95.68 and then saying to get a grade of 96.84 I subtract the 95.68 and subtracting the difference from the 3.23. Ugh. Never again.

If I forget my lenker rod on a day I need it I go crazy. I can't stand a standard grade rod anymore. They are that cool.

Designed more for under 8 foot grade changes but so easy to reset you can go over and reset laser.

I had an old guy that pushed on me 1t years ago and I owned one for 3 years before I got around to using it. When I finally got it I was so pissed I didn't use it for the prior years.

Trust me. It will change your life if you shoot a lot of grade.

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[dave_dj1]

One thing to keep in mind when setting grade is to build the pole barn higher than you think you want it, it's better to drive up into it a bit than have water running into it. I see it way to often the garage get's built right on the ground instead of up a bit. Get some grade stakes at the local hardware store and a black sharpie and a laser level with a grade stick, figure out where your highest point is and work from there.

 

[joes99]

I did the rough grade on mine with a level taped to a straight 1x4x12', was within an inch at 900 square feet. Set up forms with laser level for the slab

 

[Jamie V]

I had Pioneer do my 24’x40’x10’ pole barn. They did sub the install out and the Mennonite guys that did the install did a great job. I decided that I would prep the site before the install and I’m very happy that I did. We scraped the topsoil off the surface to get rid of all vegetation then we brought in 8”-14” of crushed concrete (depending on grade). I had it all compacted with a drive on compactor before it went up (I didn’t think I could get a good enough compact inside a built structure) After the barn was erected I filled in around the posts and used a plate tamper to compact what was disturbed before pouring the concrete.

 

[johnnyradiant]

Several years back I rented a laser level. I decided to go to a place specializing in the equipment rather than the local rental shack 'cause I've seen how people treat the stuff. I was working away with it and was thinking the amount that things are out I should have picked off with my eye, or felt just walking over the area. I picked up the level and reset it, and everything was worse. Took it back for them to recalibrate in the shop while I picked up a new one. All that to say if you beg, borrow, or rent one take a minute to confirm it is in proper working order. Take sample, reset the level and confirm you get the same outcome as your first reading.

 

[3rdgendslmech]

I shot mine with a lock level (transit level) and my wife. It only cost me 35 bucks from amazon and probably the only reason why I got it was because this was how my grandfather had taught me to shoot grade! I had 2 engineers rules that were tenths and inches. Level can be deceiving! My yard looked fairly level where I wanted to build my barn. Turned out it was a foot off from the low end to the high end. Once I stripped my topsoil I needed to get my level up so once the concrete was poured it was above ground level. I drove 2 stakes in the ground in the middle of my pad and put a mark where I knew to stop bringing in fill. Once I was finished at any given point I was only off by + or - an eighth of an inch

 

[inphx]

Well, as a DIY build i used both a laser level SPECTRA i bought off ebay and a spirit level like the Egyptians. For the spirit level i bought a length of hose and spliced clear hose tube on the ends. Filled the hose with water and some food dye. It worked fine and was cheap. Basically - if you have a clear tube you fill with water, adding some coloring food color helps. You mark the lines the water settles at. The lines will match up whenever you move and the two points are back at level. Low tech, cheap, accurate.

 

[bullnerd]

I don't really care what's on you tube.

I asked 4 different pioneer owners in my area if I could look at their buildings and ask some questions. What I saw was good enough for me. Some have been up for a long time.

Like Jamie said, the Mennonite guys did an outstanding job on my building. Its plumb and square.

I did the organic removal, not Pioneer. That was my point. And I never mentioned drilling through the base, that was my other point. My floor is on undisturbed soil with compacted crush on top, inside and over the holes.

Theres another thread here where the soil is sinking around the poles. Probably wasn't compacted AFTER the poles were in.

Anyway, my point was be careful ADDing soil to the building site for settling issues later on.

 

[Jamie V]

Anyway, my point was be careful ADDing soil to the building site for settling issues later on.

I agree with that 100%. I never added any soil only crushed concrete. I also didn’t pour the concrete for a couple weeks after the barn was erected. By then it rained a couple times settling the soil around the poles that I was able to keep packing tighter and tighter before the pour.

 

[AA7483]

I guess I'm over thinking this. basically , I need to excavate to allow for my stone base otherwise the stone base would be above grade. I know a guy locally that could come shoot the grade for me. Is this something that he can do prior to starting and leave or would he have to be there the whole time with his equipment checking and rechecking?
Pardon my ignorance on the subject. Trying to learn. I'm using Shirk out of Pa to build this by the way. All they said was they wanted a level site to extend 12 to 18 inches past the building. Thanks guys for the advice thus far.

 

[KenC]

Well, as a DIY build i used both a laser level SPECTRA i bought off ebay and a spirit level like the Egyptians. For the spirit level i bought a length of hose and spliced clear hose tube on the ends. Filled the hose with water and some food dye. It worked fine and was cheap. Basically - if you have a clear tube you fill with water, adding some coloring food color helps. You mark the lines the water settles at. The lines will match up whenever you move and the two points are back at level. Low tech, cheap, accurate.

This way is slow, but it dead accurate and cheap. If you have the time and want to learn how it will give excellent results. Garden hose, fittings a few feet of clear vinyl tubing is all you really need. Drive some stakes, tie the tubing to them, fill with water and mark the stakes. Move only one end to the next stake, mark it. Move that end to the last corner, mark that stake. Now, string line stake to stake. That's grade!

edit: I forgot, when moving the tubing, be sure the first end is at its' original level before marking

 

[Jamie V]

This is the company that installed my pioneer building.

 

[machsnell]

I guess I'm over thinking this. basically , I need to excavate to allow for my stone base otherwise the stone base would be above grade. I know a guy locally that could come shoot the grade for me. Is this something that he can do prior to starting and leave or would he have to be there the whole time with his equipment checking and rechecking?
Pardon my ignorance on the subject. Trying to learn. I'm using Shirk out of Pa to build this by the way. All they said was they wanted a level site to extend 12 to 18 inches past the building. Thanks guys for the advice thus far.

Re read my early post.

Once you shoot Grade and have stakes in the ground outside of your building corners he can leave. As long as you don't move the stakes or use a level and reset another stake with elevation marked on it you will always have your finish grade (top of slab)
Elevation.

So get him to shoot and you are done with him.

Then run string between the stakes on the long sides of the building.

Once those are set to your finish grade you can take string and go from side to side and check the depth off that string with a tape measure. Do this every 10 or 15 feet and paint on the ground what is needed. Then you will know how much you need to cut or fill.

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[AA7483]

Got it. So basically I'm going to tell him I want 5 inches of base and a 4 inch slab and he's going to set up stakes are the outside corners with markings showing the top of my slab. I'll then be able to run stings across and basically fill right up to these points. Am I right?

 

[machsnell]

Got it. So basically I'm going to tell him I want 5 inches of base and a 4 inch slab and he's going to set up stakes are the outside corners with markings showing the top of my slab. I'll then be able to run stings across and basically fill right up to these points. Am I right?

Yes. However it is important to figure out what your finish grade should be for you slab. This depends on your drive up access and how water will flow around it and how to minimize the cut and fill of dirt to get to subgrade (grade of dirt before stone.

Also remember when stone goes down and slab is poured you want to backfill these areas with dirt unless you cut pad down and leave dirt banked up outside ( it great for rain events as water won't drain away).

In any event maybe your grade man can advise you of what you best elevation will be based on the above considerations.

Once you have your floor elevations you are set.



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[Jamie V]

I poured concrete around the exterior of my pole barn after I was done to help the water run away from it and to make cutting the grass easier on the metal panels.

 

[bullnerd]

Very nice Jamie!

What are the white things near the front? Future fence posts?

 

[lakeroadster]

Yes. However it is important to figure out what your finish grade should be for you slab.

Once you have your floor elevations you are set.

Sage advice.

I drove a 3/4" diameter steel stake about 18 inches into the ground adjacent to the batter board at the highest corner of the building site, painted the stake orange, and told the builder that the top of the stake shall be the finished floor elevation.

For my site, the top of the stake was 6" above original site grade at that corner and dropped about 18" to the diagonal corner.

The orange stake eliminated all the future questions.

 

[Jamie V]

Very nice Jamie!

What are the white things near the front? Future fence posts?

Yes, thanks.

 

[chaosracing]

I don't really care what's on you tube.

I asked 4 different pioneer owners in my area if I could look at their buildings and ask some questions. What I saw was good enough for me. Some have been up for a long time.

Like Jamie said, the Mennonite guys did an outstanding job on my building. Its plumb and square.

I did the organic removal, not Pioneer. That was my point. And I never mentioned drilling through the base, that was my other point. My floor is on undisturbed soil with compacted crush on top, inside and over the holes.

Theres another thread here where the soil is sinking around the poles. Probably wasn't compacted AFTER the poles were in.

Anyway, my point was be careful ADDing soil to the building site for settling issues later on.

Those were just 2 examples, I talked to others that had "Pioneer" build and they had similar problems at the poles with ground settling. Like I said, one concrete guy would not give me a price if Pioneer was the builder. And I can understand why. I did get quotes from Pioneer as well, but with their holier than thou attitude when I talked to them, that turned me off. And their price points are horrible when compared to others with great reputations.

Kudos to you that you did an excellent prep job for your building. But what I showed from youtube are promotional videos put out by Pioneer. That in its self would be reason enough for someone to run as fast as they could from them.

My point being you got a good crew that was not Pioneer, but sub contracted by them. The videos show PIONEER people performing the work. I know many Mennonite, and they are a proud people and will go above and beyond what is necessary to make sure the building is put up right. My builder is Amish, another proud people that will go above and beyond to make sure my building will last for a very long time

 

[chaosracing]

Oh, and back to your original quote where you seem to dislike fill. Mine will be on crushed stone fill as well. Ah, but see instead of assuming what kind, I will tell you what mine is and yes I talked to my builder.
See when people say crushed stone, they can mean anything from grit up to boulders since it comes from a quarry. Am I using boulders, of course not. Am I using grit, nope. I am using whats called modified in my area. I use it alot when we build retaining walls and patios for subgrade material that is compacted. Guess what, so does Penn Dot and every other municipality in PA and other states.
My site is out of level and till I removed the top soil, I had no choice but to use fill. I could use shale, but modified is better this time of year to compact. After the building is up, then "crushed" stone, (2B in my area) will be put down on top of the modified inside the building and outside where the apron will be. That to will be compacted before concrete is done.

 

[AA7483]

Thanks for the advice so far guys. I'm really excited to get this thing rolling. Its been a long road to this point. I've lived here for 8 year and having been looking at this eyesore of a house next door. Its finally been torn down, I bought the lot, my brother in law, his brother and I brought their skid steer down and cleared the lot and I finally Have enough space to build the shop I need. Here are some before and after pics. The pole bar is going next to my garage in the back.

 

[bullnerd]

AA74- Congrats! That's a very nice looking house you have. The lot looks great, good luck with your building.

Chaos- Never said I disliked fill, I said be careful that it doesn't settle in the future. I don't know what I said to get you on my case, but I apologize whatever it was. I talked to the TWO guys that built my building in two days. They both worked for Pioneer, not subs. like I mentioned in my build, they were fantastic to work with. (Pioneer)

The clown I hired to do the concrete bumped a piece of trim with something and dented it. I took a picture and sent it to Pioneer, they sent me a new piece for free.

 

[willymakeit]

Who ever is buying concrete should set final grade. It needs to be checked for final grade against thickness of slab at desired elevation.

 

[Marctrees]

Who ever is buying concrete should set final grade. It needs to be checked for final grade against thickness of slab at desired elevation.

Very true - The importance of accurate final grading is major.

Like in my case we will be doing a slab this spring that has to have a certain specific TOP surface elevation to match up floor level w existing stuff

So, if our final grade before pouring was just 1" too low, on our 1400 ft sq slab that would be an EXTRA 1" x 1400 = over 4 yds extra wasted money... not even to mention running out of mud in the middle of a pour headaches etc etc.

$4-500 totally wasted cause was not done accurately enough.

Course, fill matl and labor is not free either.. but in our case we have high ground extremely sandy virgin packed soil we are pouring on, and we are being slow and careful to not cut too deep .

So, not paying for fill, in our case it would be those $ wasted.

Now, on a typical stand alone polebarn, if your slab surface ends up + - 1" of final planned elevation, you MAY be OK.. other than could cause problems w door heights.

But wait - the finishers will pour puddle and rough screed to a elevation given to them.. so actually, they will run out of mud.. and you will have a large dirt corner that at least your cats will like.

ALSO -- even if your average finished before pour grade is good, you still don't want sloppy 3-5" range deviation in slab thickness due to it not being flat consistent 4".

So, in most ALL situations , accurate FINAL grade before pour is very important.

AND, you sure don't want to be a yard short, nor do you want a one yard concrete carbuncle in yer yard as a Lawn Ornament.

But maybe they bring excess back to their yard ?? (but you still paid for it).

Whoever gives and blesses a final # for elev has a BIG responsibility on their shoulders, and definitely sign off on compared to a stable benchmark so blame cannot be shifted.

This is one reason it's good to have a concrete guy that does final grading himself, as long as you still get your spec'd thickness minimum !

I'm NOT a concrete guy.. If I'm off on anything feel free to correct me.

Marc