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Setting temp for floor heat.

jacks2000

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I have a 3200 sq ft very well insulated shop with both in floor heat and a 95% 100,000 btu furnace/AC. I work in the shop 1.5 to 2 hours 3 or 4 nights a week and 5 - 8 hours on Saturdays and Sundays. I'm trying to decide which would be more efficient, set the floor heat to a constant 65 deg. or set it at 45-50 deg and bump the heat up to 65 with the furnace when I am ready to work in the shop. At the most I'm in the shop 20% of the time.
Any ideas?
Thanks
Jack
 
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75gmck25

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If in-floor was your only heat source, a setback of 15-20 degrees would be efficient, but it would probably take too much time to recover to work well for a few hours of work in the evening. However, you have an alternate heat source that will bring the air temps up faster, so it should be fine to use that amount of setback.

If I planned to work there for several hours on the weekends I would want to set the temp up early enough to let the floor get warm before I start work. I have a fairly simple setback thermostat on my house's radiator system, and it seems to have no problem figuring out how early to turn heat on early enough in the morning to reach the set temperature at the right time. However, I only have a nighttime setback of 6 degrees, so recovery happens fairly quickly once hot water is circulating.

Bruce
 

finn

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There are 168 hours in a week, and, by your numbers, you are occupying your heated shop space 2p of those hours,or about 8.4% of the time.

I have a similar setup, an oil fired boiler and a propane heater hanging from the ceiling. I have been in my shop for about four to five hours per day, on most days, for the past month.

In milder weather, I kept the boiler shut down. Now that nights are in the single digits and daily highs are in the teens, I set the boiler thermostats to the mid forties and the programmed thermostat to bring the room temperature up to approach working temperature by about noon, which is when I normally get to the shop. I usually do a manual override on the propane heater thermostat to fine tune the room temperature, depending on what activities I have for the day.

The floor temp has been in the fifties when I arrive, which is comfortable for my feet.

There are a lot of set it and forget it advocates on this site, especially for floor heat, but the heat loss, even for a well insulated building is a function of temperature differential between the inside and outdoors, so, at least if you have a flexible system with setback capability and a fast response option, set the floor as low as you can be comfortable at.
 

yeldogt

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High mass radiant works best when it's paired with outdoor reset (concrete slab is high mass) -- the reset controller varies the water temp based on the outside temp. You don't really set an inside temp -- the controller has two adjustments -- one is the relative water temp (main heat load) the other increases the delta as the temp falls. All radiant uses mass to transfer and hold the heat -- the amount of energy is not available immediately .. also, as temps fall the input needed to the slab is not linear .. it's greater .... so the second curve increases the temp.

If you are using only a inside tstat -- the controlling is difficult as the floor is not responding quick enough.

I have been installing radiant in all my projects for almost 30 years. What you have done --- having the radiant and the ducted as well is really the best. I typically use the radiant to warm the floors at both my large studio 2k sf and my vacation house .. just warming the floors does not keep them at the temp I would want -- I use the ducted system to bring it up quickly. When I'm staying a week or two I turn the curve up on the reset controller to bump it up a bit.

There is a bit of playing around with a new radiant setup -- you have to feel out the system. A 6" slab w 12" on-center tubing is not going to heat up (respond) as fast as one with 6" on-center tubing that's only 4" thick. Radiant is only going to save you $$ if its properly set up -- the only savings is in the delivery. Typically, one can deliver less BTU's to a space with radiant vs other types because you are delivering it at the floor where people are .. and not heating the air at the top of the room.

With the advent of super insulated homes -- Radiant gets really tricky. In my new project the heat load at many times is so low we had rethink -- just warming the floors was too many Btu's. I had to zone some rooms w/ twin loops to keep the floors BTU under the load.

Also -- Floor thermostats really only work well as over limit controls.
 

Dick in Wisconsin

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I have radiant heat in the concrete floor of the 1000sf race shop which is very well insulated (6" walls with styrofoam and R-38 or more in the ceiling), but has three garage doors ... one 16' and two 9' (?). It has 10' ceiling in half and scissor trusses in the other half. Shop was built in 2014.

I set the temp to 55* on the thermostat which is on a inside wall. I find it to be pretty comfortable in the winter. If I work on the race car, I'm comfortable. If I sit and read something or surf the net, I'm a little chilly. There is some kind of a device on the outside of the building; which I presume is an outside air temperature probe to help the computer in the boiler what to do.

Keep in mind that with radiant in-floor heat, the warmth comes from the floor ... you're not trying to force the heat down the from the ceiling. Use a creeper to crawl under the race car up on jack stands and its nice and warm. Any tools laying on the floor are nice and warm.

I've also found that if its say 30 degrees outside and overcast, if I got in, turn the fluorescent lights on, and work for a while (no welding or grinding or torch work) I often see the temp rising to 56 or 57 or 58 or 59.

If the temp is in the 20s or so and I turn the temp up to 60 or 65 it takes a one to two days to get there.

If its cold outside and I open on of the big doors to move something in or out, it does take a while (hour or so) for the shop to warm back up again.

All in all I'm very, very happy with the in-floor heat investment.
 
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yeldogt

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I have radiant heat in the concrete floor of the 1000sf race shop which is very well insulated (6" walls with styrofoam and R-38 or more in the ceiling), but has three garage doors ... one 16' and two 9' (?). It has 10' ceiling in half and scissor trusses in the other half. Shop was built in 2014.

I set the temp to 55* on the thermostat which is on a inside wall. I find it to be pretty comfortable in the winter. If I work on the race car, I'm comfortable. If I sit and read something or surf the net, I'm a little chilly. There is some kind of a device on the outside of the building; which I presume is an outside air temperature probe to help the computer in the boiler what to do.

Keep in mind that with radiant in-floor heat, the warmth comes from the floor ... you're not trying to force the heat down the from the ceiling. Use a creeper to crawl under the race car up on jack stands and its nice and warm. Any tools laying on the floor are nice and warm.

I've also found that if its say 30 degrees outside and overcast, if I got in, turn the fluorescent lights on, and work for a while (no welding or grinding or torch work) I often see the temp rising to 56 or 57 or 58 or 59.

If the temp is in the 20s or so and I turn the temp up to 60 or 65 it takes a one to two days to get there.

If its cold outside and I open on of the big doors to move something in or out, it does take a while (hour or so) for the shop to warm back up again.

All in all I'm very, very happy with the in-floor heat investment.

Find out what's outside. It could be a temp bulb connected to a wax controlled 3 or 4 way valve or it could be a thermistor (electronic) attached to a full outdoor reset. With full electronic reset -- the inside thermostat is an additional adjuster.

you should be able to adjust the water temp -- make it hotter for times it's cold
 

4cyclic

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Keeping mine at 53 deg. 24/7.

I find it comfortable working around the shop all day on weekends. It's really well insulated too.
 
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jacks2000

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Thanks for the ideas. I think I'll try setting the floor t-stat to 55 and bringing the shop up to work temperature with the HVAC.
 

bcoke

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Pawlet Vermont
My home has radient heat [floors] in basement first and second floor love it basement always set at 55 and is quite comfortable with sweatshirt/sweater.......first floor 68 degrees with a 64 degree setback at night and upstairs 68 degee all the time..........feels perfect for us.........my garage has in floor radient with outside temperature sensor 6 inches of concrete with plenty of insulation below slab so heat sink radiates up.......I keep it set at 56 degrees and it is most comfortable.......when working need to take off flannel/sweat shirt as too warm..... I believe that the set it and forget it is the way to go with radient as the time to warm up is longer but more comfortable...........imho ....BC
 

Denwood

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Your plan of a larger radiant setback with HVAC suplement is the more efficient strategy. We have a 4800 sq radiant, and 5 air handlers over two floors to supplement. The heat source for the air handlers is the same as the radiant, two triangle tube high efficiency on demand boilers. I’ve tested both strategies logging power as well as gas usage. Maximizing setbacks for heat is the most efficient, meaning a lower radiant with HVAC for comfort during occupancy is the most efficient.
 

Gearhead777c

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I just got my radiant set up 3 weeks ago. Pretty close in sqft as yours, 3200. I have a 5" slab with 1/2" ALPEX 12" OC. Walls have 3" of closed cell, Ceiling has 8-9" of open cell, I used metal for the ceiling. I have 95% efficient 110BTU wall hung fired with propane. The shop heats up quick I think, about a degree per hour. I now keep it at 57 and pretty damn good for working and hanging out. When I first had it installed we set the tstats to 70 and it got there from 48 by the next afternoon. It was actually 73 and felt like a sauna. Everyone told me I would need overhead blowers and such but I feel I don't. I have 5 overhead doors and a bunch of windows and don't have much loss when I open a door and pull something in or out. It is awesome laying under a machine and being warm. I thought all the heat would be at the ceiling but I was on top of my camper the other night and it felt colder 2' from the ceiling. My ceiling height is 14'.
 

yeldogt

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I just got my radiant set up 3 weeks ago. Pretty close in sqft as yours, 3200. I have a 5" slab with 1/2" ALPEX 12" OC. Walls have 3" of closed cell, Ceiling has 8-9" of open cell, I used metal for the ceiling. I have 95% efficient 110BTU wall hung fired with propane. The shop heats up quick I think, about a degree per hour. I now keep it at 57 and pretty damn good for working and hanging out. When I first had it installed we set the tstats to 70 and it got there from 48 by the next afternoon. It was actually 73 and felt like a sauna. Everyone told me I would need overhead blowers and such but I feel I don't. I have 5 overhead doors and a bunch of windows and don't have much loss when I open a door and pull something in or out. It is awesome laying under a machine and being warm. I thought all the heat would be at the ceiling but I was on top of my camper the other night and it felt colder 2' from the ceiling. My ceiling height is 14'.

Conventional thermostats work as a high limit ... they don't work as well as outdoor reset even with floor thermostats.

Those who told you you needed blowers don't understand radiant -- properly designed radiant does not overheat the ceiling -- in fact it can be the coldest spot depending on the ceiling height. With close spaced tubing the water temps can be reduced ..making the ceiling colder still.
 

yeldogt

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Your plan of a larger radiant setback with HVAC suplement is the more efficient strategy. We have a 4800 sq radiant, and 5 air handlers over two floors to supplement. The heat source for the air handlers is the same as the radiant, two triangle tube high efficiency on demand boilers. I’ve tested both strategies logging power as well as gas usage. Maximizing setbacks for heat is the most efficient, meaning a lower radiant with HVAC for comfort during occupancy is the most efficient.

I have found this to be a great strategy -- we dial back the reset control and boost the temps when we are occupying. When we get into really cold temps the radiant is doing most of it .. but the duel strategy is great when temps are fluctuating. One of our places is almost all concrete -- so it's a very difficult place to control -- using both is the ticket. Plus it's running propane -- so we have HP's

Our newest place is going to have about 1/3 of the sf covered with mini-splits. Will be interesting to see how this all works. It very open -- so I think we will be ok.
 

Dick in Wisconsin

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****, I am curious what is the temperture of the floor ?

I checked about 3:30pm today. OAT was high 30's/very low 40's today.

The boiler is set to shop air temp of 55*. It read 56* on its inside wall. The digital thermometer at the other end of the shop read 55*.

I shot the floor (and then walls ) with my Craftsman infrared gun and go 45* to 47*. I was surprised it was that low. But maybe the "shop" wasn't calling for heat and the boiler wasn't putting BTUs into the floor because of OAT and enough solar effect coming through the windows (in spite of overcast conditions). Or maybe the IR gun is not accurate. I'll check again when its cold outside.

I've thought about this thread. I think having the boiler and pumps controlled by the air temp in the heated space is what you want. The temp of the floor will vary based on what it takes to maintain the set temp. But I'm not an engineer or an HVAC expert.

I wonder whatever happened to Badger Boiler (or whatever his handle was) from Minnesota. This would be a good topic for him.
 
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Denwood

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The ecobee stats I use for both radiant and air handlers do a good job as each stat learns the building response based on outside conditions. They are air temp only. We run the triangle tube units at 125F or so (for the air handlers), with slab temp down to 100F or so via a mixing valve. This works very well.

The stats learn the slab recovery time so you can set your targets and it will vary the set up and set back times accordingly. Works very well, particularly the real time data logging so you can compare outside ambient to inside and see how system run times correlate.

Our 4800 sq/ft radiant is an insulated/pour over existing slab, so the concrete containing radiant is only 2” thick. This means it recovers quickly if desired..and the super insulated envelope means it holds heat very well. In a busy environment (people and equipment) we find it’s easy to introduce a “thermal bulge” at 1-2 pm. Radiant let’s you moderate this by running cooler slab temps, and letting the air handlers bump the air temp earlier in the day. I suspect this is part of the efficient equation if you have this option :)
 
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yeldogt

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The ecobee stats I use for both radiant and air handlers do a good job as each stat learns the building response based on outside conditions. They are air temp only. We run the triangle tube units at 125F or so (for the air handlers), with slab temp down to 100F or so via a mixing valve. This works very well.

The stats learn the slab recovery time so you can set your targets and it will vary the set up and set back times accordingly. Works very well, particularly the real time data logging so you can compare outside ambient to inside and see how system run times correlate.

Our 4800 sq/ft radiant is an insulated/pour over existing slab, so the concrete containing radiant is only 2” thick. This means it recovers quickly if desired..and the super insulated envelope means it holds heat very well. In a busy environment (people and equipment) we find it’s easy to introduce a “thermal bulge” at 1-2 pm. Radiant let’s you moderate this by running cooler slab temps, and letting the air handlers bump the air temp earlier in the day. I suspect this is part of the efficient equation if you have this option :)

Think the key to all of this working for you is the building itself -- tight building are easy to control if you can provide low enough input -- the 125 is telling me this is so. The fast response of the thin slab is important. I'm assuming the two temps are static?

The ecobee is basically an advanced outdoor reset system --- it's using local weather as the degree target and the homes internal temps as the reset adjuster. How is the ecobee doing both systems? What's the control of the system in AC -- is it multi speed.

I have never found slab thermostats of much use in my systems -- I always make a provision but with proper reset I never need them. My new build is going to have plates, warmboard, concrete and possibly panel if I can't get my output up in the older part of the house. I'm going to make a provision for the slab temp sensor .. just in case.

I think the low temps in many garage applications allow for typical air thermostats -- the radiant output is not that static .. but it's not as likely to get too overheated .. so not noticeable.
 

Denwood

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Ecobees on the radiant zones only do radiant. They do a good job as a reset. We have an outdoor provision on the triangle tubes, but don’t use them.

The water temps are set on the triangle tube units (125) but the radiant circuits are set with a mixing valve. Both are static. I lowered the temps by a degree or so at a time until the radiant “thermal bulge” flatttened out. We did not install slab temp sensors...air temp is all my staff care about :)

This is the equip room layout:

ecobee10.jpg
 
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yeldogt

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Ecobees on the radiant zones only do radiant. They do a good job as a reset. We have an outdoor provision on the triangle tubes, but don’t use them.

The water temps are set on the triangle tube units (125) but the radiant circuits are set with a mixing valve. Both are static. I lowered the temps by a degree or so at a time until the radiant “thermal bulge” flatttened out. We did not install slab temp sensors...air temp is all my staff care about :)

This is the equip room layout:

ecobee10.jpg

W/O the HVAC, static water temps become problematic as the BTU/SF increases. As outside temps drop water temps must increase ....this is where building envelope is critical for most efficient operation.

Some of my projects have as many as four water temps -- getting that done as simple as possible is my goal. The only parameter that "has to happen" is getting the temps correct when doing radiant under a wood floor.
 
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86turbodsl

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I agree with yeldogt, i have 3 different temps for the radiant in my house. I don't know how you could live without outdoor reset. I started out in the house without reset and the temps were miserable in the house the first winter most of the time. I re-did all the controls after that winter with 3 temps, wood, concrete and tile. I use variable speed injection all on a custom plc controller. It works very well now. And improving the envelope was also part of the plan and helped a lot.
 

86turbodsl

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Can you expand on the PLC Controller ... what it does, how you did it, etc. I know that PLCs stand for Programmable Logic Controls, that "Allen Bradley boards" might be involved ... but not much more.
Plc takes input data and provides outputs based on a program. I have temperature inputs for the loop temps and the plc calculates the temps needed and turns ssr on for the pumps or heat sources. I used a direct logic dl06 and wrote the program for everything. 3 ton geothermal is primary, propane boiler is backup and hot water.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
 
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jacks2000

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Thank you all for your responses. I think I will finish hooking up my furnace and give it a try. The only thing that concerns me is if the radiant T-stat never calls for heat and the floor cools off. Negating the very reason for putting the radiant in the first place. I'll just have to experiment with different temperature settings.
 

chaosracing

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I have radiant heat in the concrete floor of the 1000sf race shop which is very well insulated (6" walls with styrofoam and R-38 or more in the ceiling), but has three garage doors ... one 16' and two 9' (?). It has 10' ceiling in half and scissor trusses in the other half. Shop was built in 2014.

I set the temp to 55* on the thermostat which is on a inside wall. I find it to be pretty comfortable in the winter. If I work on the race car, I'm comfortable. If I sit and read something or surf the net, I'm a little chilly. There is some kind of a device on the outside of the building; which I presume is an outside air temperature probe to help the computer in the boiler what to do.

Keep in mind that with radiant in-floor heat, the warmth comes from the floor ... you're not trying to force the heat down the from the ceiling. Use a creeper to crawl under the race car up on jack stands and its nice and warm. Any tools laying on the floor are nice and warm.

I've also found that if its say 30 degrees outside and overcast, if I got in, turn the fluorescent lights on, and work for a while (no welding or grinding or torch work) I often see the temp rising to 56 or 57 or 58 or 59.

If the temp is in the 20s or so and I turn the temp up to 60 or 65 it takes a one to two days to get there.

If its cold outside and I open on of the big doors to move something in or out, it does take a while (hour or so) for the shop to warm back up again.

All in all I'm very, very happy with the in-floor heat investment.

The device outside the building has nothing to do with inside temps. It is a boiler control device. If outside temps are say 50, it tells the boiler that and the boiler wont go on full force. If its 0 degrees outside, it tells the boiler that and the boiler kicks into high gear. I have one for my wall hung tankless boiler in my house. What this allows the boiler to do is be a little more efficient than other boilers.
 

86turbodsl

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The device outside the building has nothing to do with inside temps. It is a boiler control device. If outside temps are say 50, it tells the boiler that and the boiler wont go on full force. If its 0 degrees outside, it tells the boiler that and the boiler kicks into high gear. I have one for my wall hung tankless boiler in my house. What this allows the boiler to do is be a little more efficient than other boilers.
Unless you're using a mod-con boiler capable of low return temps, you should not be firing a boiler temp to outdoor reset temps for a floor. If it's the typical pex tubing in concrete, the hottest water should ever get entering the slab would be maybe 110F. Otherwise you're going to overheat the space and your feet. There should be a mixing valve, small pump or other modulating device that takes the boiler temp and modulates it down to floor temp. Normal boilers run about 170-180F and NEVER lower than 140F or flue gasses condense and rot them out. Mod-con boilers can tolerate that for efficiency gains, but last time i checked, they are usually VERY expensive and probably not found in any but the most expensive garages or houses.

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75gmck25

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My Buderus standard efficiency boiler uses a temp of about 145 degrees max for my hydronic system cast iron radiators; however, I didn't know that floor heat would be better with something closer to 110. I do know that copper finned baseboard runs more like 175-180 degrees. However, I think that's because they don't have enough mass to retain heat for very long, so once its shut down flow you don't get much radiation. It sounds like the general concept is that more mass requires lower max water temps, and a concrete slab has a lot of mass.

Bruce
 

finn

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Unless you're using a mod-con boiler capable of low return temps, you should not be firing a boiler temp to outdoor reset temps for a floor. If it's the typical pex tubing in concrete, the hottest water should ever get entering the slab would be maybe 110F. Otherwise you're going to overheat the space and your feet. There should be a mixing valve, small pump or other modulating device that takes the boiler temp and modulates it down to floor temp. Normal boilers run about 170-180F and NEVER lower than 140F or flue gasses condense and rot them out. Mod-con boilers can tolerate that for efficiency gains, but last time i checked, they are usually VERY expensive and probably not found in any but the most expensive garages or houses.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

I think most new installations and retrofits are modulating boilers now, despite the cost premium.

The increased price buys you 10-15% efficiency improvement, and, maybe more importantly , floor space.

My giant Burnham boiler cycles between 160 and 116 degrees. It's going this week, to be replaced by a wall hung mod con.
 

yeldogt

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My Buderus standard efficiency boiler uses a temp of about 145 degrees max for my hydronic system cast iron radiators; however, I didn't know that floor heat would be better with something closer to 110. I do know that copper finned baseboard runs more like 175-180 degrees. However, I think that's because they don't have enough mass to retain heat for very long, so once its shut down flow you don't get much radiation. It sounds like the general concept is that more mass requires lower max water temps, and a concrete slab has a lot of mass.

Bruce

It's a question of what BTU's are required. A typical cast iron boiler requires high return temps -- for both efficiency and to protect the cast iron from thermal shock. The german's make boilers that can take the lower temp return water. A cast iron boiler is high mass vs copper fin tubes (low mass). CI also has many gallons of water -- fin tube very little.

After WWII the boiler manufacturers had to do something-- forced air heat is both cheap to make and install. Hydronic manufactures had to reduce costs or they were going away -- The result is high water temps and low mass radiation -- IE baseboard fin tube. It's not as efficient -- but it's cheaper to install. You need high water temps to deliver the BTU's to the room -- and yes ..with less water in teh loop it cools quicker vs a CI radiator with many gallons of water.

The germans use floor radiant and panel radiators -- both can be sized to use much lower water temps. Why heat water to 180+ when 140 will do ... or even less if only the floor. Panel radiators are easily sized to use 140 water

don't confuse "high mass" -- this can refer to the output system (concrete floor) .. or a boiler (cast iron)

Personally -- I like typical high mass german CI boilers. simple -- long lived and when you factor in the cost and maintenance of the new wall hung types .. my guess is they are cheaper for the typical well insulated house. A good CI boiler can be 5k cheaper and last 30 years w/ very little needed. I can't see a wall hung going past 15 .. and they require maintenance.
 

yeldogt

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Unless you're using a mod-con boiler capable of low return temps, you should not be firing a boiler temp to outdoor reset temps for a floor. If it's the typical pex tubing in concrete, the hottest water should ever get entering the slab would be maybe 110F. Otherwise you're going to overheat the space and your feet. There should be a mixing valve, small pump or other modulating device that takes the boiler temp and modulates it down to floor temp. Normal boilers run about 170-180F and NEVER lower than 140F or flue gasses condense and rot them out. Mod-con boilers can tolerate that for efficiency gains, but last time i checked, they are usually VERY expensive and probably not found in any but the most expensive garages or houses.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

Problems occur when the space requires more BTU's. A wood floor should never get above 85 .. although I have done it. That's about 35BTU per sf .. some homes need more. On concrete you can exceed that temp -- but ... it's a question of comfort.

The best radiant jobs .. start with proper buildings. That's why insulation is so important -- reduce the BTU need and you win all around.
 

86turbodsl

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You are right yeldogt, i'm at 25btu/ft in the house, and one room wasn't performing that well, we had to beef up the insulation in that room and now works better. Radiant floors and hydronics are a wonderful thing, but requires a more highly engineered space that not everybody gets right.

FWIW, i'm at max 110F buffer tank temp at design temp on the house, directly feeding the wood (max temp required) floors and have not had issues, which i think is because i chose very narrow hardwood flooring rather than wider planks. That's just my opinion, though.
 

yeldogt

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You are right yeldogt, i'm at 25btu/ft in the house, and one room wasn't performing that well, we had to beef up the insulation in that room and now works better. Radiant floors and hydronics are a wonderful thing, but requires a more highly engineered space that not everybody gets right.

FWIW, i'm at max 110F buffer tank temp at design temp on the house, directly feeding the wood (max temp required) floors and have not had issues, which i think is because i chose very narrow hardwood flooring rather than wider planks. That's just my opinion, though.

I'm doing a combination of radiant and forced air in my new build. I'm using warmboard w/ very wide reclaimed oak flooring ... as well as concrete on the lowest level. I'm betting that insulation and proper design will allow using all one temp water -- to keep it simple.
 

86turbodsl

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I'm doing a combination of radiant and forced air in my new build. I'm using warmboard w/ very wide reclaimed oak flooring ... as well as concrete on the lowest level. I'm betting that insulation and proper design will allow using all one temp water -- to keep it simple.
I tried to do that on my house, spray foam structure, tons of insulation, heat plates, etc. I just couldn't get there though. Too much glass on the problem rooms. I could probably have dropped loop spacing to 6" or less to get my radiation up, but it was easier just to add insulation in the ceiling and in the basement.

Good luck with your project, post the details if you can!

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chaosracing

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Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Messages
585
Location
Kutztown, Pa
Unless you're using a mod-con boiler capable of low return temps, you should not be firing a boiler temp to outdoor reset temps for a floor. If it's the typical pex tubing in concrete, the hottest water should ever get entering the slab would be maybe 110F. Otherwise you're going to overheat the space and your feet. There should be a mixing valve, small pump or other modulating device that takes the boiler temp and modulates it down to floor temp. Normal boilers run about 170-180F and NEVER lower than 140F or flue gasses condense and rot them out. Mod-con boilers can tolerate that for efficiency gains, but last time i checked, they are usually VERY expensive and probably not found in any but the most expensive garages or houses.

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I installed a Bosch tankless in place of my oil burner tank type heater. It has different setting on it for the types of heating you are using the boiler for. The cost was not at all that different than other tankless boilers. My system also runs PVC venting for exhaust gases and has a condensate pump inside to get rid of the water produced from the boiler. It was one of the best on the market (6 yrs ago) and also has the outdoor temp sensor.
 

Dick in Wisconsin

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Joined
Mar 3, 2012
Messages
3,048
Location
Shawano, Wisconsin
The device outside the building has nothing to do with inside temps. It is a boiler control device. If outside temps are say 50, it tells the boiler that and the boiler wont go on full force. If its 0 degrees outside, it tells the boiler that and the boiler kicks into high gear. I have one for my wall hung tankless boiler in my house. What this allows the boiler to do is be a little more efficient than other boilers.

Thanks for the explanation. I suspected it worked like that, now its confirmed.
 

yeldogt

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Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
18,184
Thanks for the explanation. I suspected it worked like that, now its confirmed.

That is the outside reset. As outdoor temps drop the BTU's needed to keep the building warm will need to increase ... outdoor reset is not a new invention. It has been around since the beginning of hydronic heating.

The curve (that's what it's called) -- boiler temp increase to drop in outside temp - is not linear for a few reasons. In my original setup (almost 25 years old) there is no inside thermostat for the heating boiler -- the Buderus boiler has two adjustments that you play with for the first season .. once set they adjust the water temp up and down to match the building. In a well insulated building -- it's all about outdoor temps -- poorly insulated or leaking buildings will need additional adjustments because of air leaking (typically an inside Tstat). Wind on a building will increase BTU need.

Actually the devise outside has everything to do with the inside temps.

The latest heat pumps and modulating gas furnaces also use external temp to adjust output -- the greatest comfort is gained when the heat delivered is equal to that needed ... that's why you don't want a big furnace or boiler. Oversizing is a mistake.
 

raspy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
103
Location
Wellington, Nevada
I never use an outdoor reset. It's only needed if you set the boiler delivery temperature so low it can't heat the house in cold weather. There is no good reason to do that unless you want a constant circulating system. That theory of operation is both less comfortable and less efficient. It also means the recovery rate is painfully slow which means you have a hard time adjusting temperatures in different rooms at various times. It means there will be a higher average temperature to compensate for the extremely slow recovery rate, so the losses are higher. Less comfortable and/or higher operating costs.

Back in the '50s and 60's a lot of people with radiant were told to just set it and forget it, with simple thermostats. Wrong. Then people would open the doors to blow off excessive heat in the house, they had cold evenings where the temp would dip and the recovery was too slow and they slept in often too warm bedrooms. Bills were extremely high. Comfort was much lower than is should have been. Some of those old places had outdoor resets too. Eventually the resets were all abandoned because they did nothing to improve the comfort. A better idea was needed, but the builders had told the original owners to set it and forget it, as though the heating was so good that it was invisible. Well, it wasn't. It was almost, but not quite. I'm talking thousands of homes with radiant heat that were almost a whole lot better.

Different zones have different needs. Radiant works best and is most efficient when a setback thermostat is used and the recovery rate is reasonably fast. I am ALWAYS able to reduce the operating cost and increase the comfort with a setback thermostat. And I always have a high enough delivery water temp to do the job. The closer you match the boiler temp to the required floor temp, the more time you must circulate and the less you can have various room temps at various times. This means there can be more losses because the floor must always be warm. Warm bedrooms are less comfortable to sleep in and rooms only used part time are warm for no reason except to accommodate the low delivery temp. Very low delivery temps mean near constant circulation and, again, poor comfort where different zones want different temps at different times.

The concept of "Oversizing" the boiler has no clear meaning if it has no numbers attached or if the design of the boiler is not mentioned. If the house requires 75,000 BTU to match the heat load, a 175,000 BTU boiler seems too large. But if it's a condensing boiler with a 5-1 turn down rate, it can match very well. Further, a larger boiler when throttled is more efficient because the heat exchanger is oversized for the burn rate and the boiler condenses and has a cool exhaust. Condensing boilers should be condensing all the time they're running, so matching the load at full boiler output, or not "oversizing" it reduces efficiency because the boiler spends most of it's time at full throttle with a smaller heat exchanger and less condensing. Also, with modulating, the boiler can really send a lot of BTU's to the floor initially and then throttle back, so you get better recovery in the beginning of the heating cycle without overshooting. This allows better programming, greater comfort and better efficiency.

A proper setback program will greatly enhance the comfort while reducing the bill and stabilizing the interior temperature. But it must be a specific radiant program and not a generic forced air program. Avoid using a Nest thermostat on radiant heating unless you know how to go inside and change it's operating strategy.

Higher insulation values lead to lower floor temps. Greater floor mass stabilizes the interior temp, but reduces the ability to program, somewhat. This is where balancing the manifold loops to the needs of the house make up the difference. Balancing defines the character of the heat, such as generally warmer in the bathrooms and kitchen and cooler in the sleeping areas.

A good average floor temp for the general living areas might be 70-74 degrees. Bathrooms about 74-80, bedrooms about 65-70. There are several stages of floor temperature. One is cold! Yikes. Next is invisible where the floor temp goes unnoticed. And three, warm, where the floor greets you when you enter a room, such as the bathroom or kitchen. These are achieved through programming, balancing and adequate delivery temperature from the boiler. It also means greater efficiency because the lower the temp the less the heat loss. So some rooms can be left off or only heated in the morning. Others only in the evening, such as a living room.

My house has an 8" thick slab and is about 3,000 sq ft overall. We are at 5,000 ft elevation in Nevada. My primary heat source is solar with (6) 4X10 flat plate collectors and 600 gallons of storage. This does all the heating from February till December unless a cold snap occurs with no sun. My backup is oil in a conventional cast iron boiler that I have modified to increase it's efficiency. My total oil use last year was 38 gallons and we were completely comfortable.

Solar and in-slab radiant are a magic combination. Solar has several important design considerations that must be followed for best performance. One, decide what kind of freeze protection you intend to have and make sure it is foolproof. No failure of any kind can lead to a freeze up in the panels. This is a must! Don't make it "unlikely" to freeze, make it impossible to freeze. Two, design the system to cool the collectors, not heat the water. Solar efficiency is based on temperature, the lower the better and the greatest amount of energy will come from the panels if they are running cool. Steam is a ridiculous display that will do nothing for the house. This is why it works so well with in-slab radiant, because the floor is running so cool compared to baseboard radiators, for instance. The design must have relatively large storage, relatively high flow rates and probably no collectors in series. Use plain water with only minimal water treatment that won't change its viscosity or make it toxic.

My system heats the floor and the hot water while preheating the 400 pounds of iron in the boiler. Oil is the backup but can only run if certain criteria are met. All of the controls are very simple and reliable. There are no outside sensors for the radiant, as I care about the inside temp and there is always enough temperature to do the work. There are no floor sensors either because the wall thermostat is better suited to comfort. Floor sensors are required if you have a radiant floor inside a forced air zone, but not for radiant only. Again, it's the overall comfort we're interested in and air temp is a better measurement than floor temp because heat can also come from lighting, cooking, people, a fireplace, the sun, etc. Floor temperature sensors know nothing about those other influences on overall comfort, wall thermostats do.
 
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86turbodsl

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 1, 2005
Messages
6,556
Location
Michigan
I never use an outdoor reset. It's only needed if you set the boiler delivery temperature so low it can't heat the house in cold weather. There is no good reason to do that unless you want a constant circulating system. That theory of operation is both less comfortable and less efficient. It also means the recovery rate is painfully slow which means you have a hard time adjusting temperatures in different rooms at various times. It means there will be a higher average temperature to compensate for the extremely slow recovery rate, so the losses are higher. Less comfortable and/or higher operating costs.

Back in the '50s and 60's a lot of people with radiant were told to just set it and forget it, with simple thermostats. Wrong. Then people would open the doors to blow off excessive heat in the house, they had cold evenings where the temp would dip and the recovery was too slow and they slept in often too warm bedrooms. Bills were extremely high. Comfort was much lower than is should have been. Some of those old places had outdoor resets too. Eventually the resets were all abandoned because they did nothing to improve the comfort. A better idea was needed, but the builders had told the original owners to set it and forget it, as though the heating was so good that it was invisible. Well, it wasn't. It was almost, but not quite. I'm talking thousands of homes with radiant heat that were almost a whole lot better.

Different zones have different needs. Radiant works best and is most efficient when a setback thermostat is used and the recovery rate is reasonably fast. I am ALWAYS able to reduce the operating cost and increase the comfort with a setback thermostat. And I always have a high enough delivery water temp to do the job. The closer you match the boiler temp to the required floor temp, the more time you must circulate and the less you can have various room temps at various times. This means there can be more losses because the floor must always be warm. Warm bedrooms are less comfortable to sleep in and rooms only used part time are warm for no reason except to accommodate the low delivery temp. Very low delivery temps mean near constant circulation and, again, poor comfort where different zones want different temps at different times.

The concept of "Oversizing" the boiler has no clear meaning if it has no numbers attached or if the design of the boiler is not mentioned. If the house requires 75,000 BTU to match the heat load, a 175,000 BTU boiler seems too large. But if it's a condensing boiler with a 5-1 turn down rate, it can match very well. Further, a larger boiler when throttled is more efficient because the heat exchanger is oversized for the burn rate and the boiler condenses and has a cool exhaust. Condensing boilers should be condensing all the time they're running, so matching the load at full boiler output, or not "oversizing" it reduces efficiency because the boiler spends most of it's time at full throttle with a smaller heat exchanger and less condensing. Also, with modulating, the boiler can really send a lot of BTU's to the floor initially and then throttle back, so you get better recovery in the beginning of the heating cycle without overshooting. This allows better programming, greater comfort and better efficiency.

A proper setback program will greatly enhance the comfort while reducing the bill and stabilizing the interior temperature. But it must be a specific radiant program and not a generic forced air program. Avoid using a Nest thermostat on radiant heating unless you know how to go inside and change it's operating strategy.

Higher insulation values lead to lower floor temps. Greater floor mass stabilizes the interior temp, but reduces the ability to program, somewhat. This is where balancing the manifold loops to the needs of the house make up the difference. Balancing defines the character of the heat, such as generally warmer in the bathrooms and kitchen and cooler in the sleeping areas.

A good average floor temp for the general living areas might be 70-74 degrees. Bathrooms about 74-80, bedrooms about 65-70. There are several stages of floor temperature. One is cold! Yikes. Next is invisible where the floor temp goes unnoticed. And three, warm, where the floor greets you when you enter a room, such as the bathroom or kitchen. These are achieved through programming, balancing and adequate delivery temperature from the boiler. It also means greater efficiency because the lower the temp the less the heat loss. So some rooms can be left off or only heated in the morning. Others only in the evening, such as a living room.

My house has an 8" thick slab and is about 3,000 sq ft overall. We are at 5,000 ft elevation in Nevada. My primary heat source is solar with (6) 4X10 flat plate collectors and 600 gallons of storage. This does all the heating from February till December unless a cold snap occurs with no sun. My backup is oil in a conventional cast iron boiler that I have modified to increase it's efficiency. My total oil use last year was 38 gallons and we were completely comfortable.

Solar and in-slab radiant are a magic combination. Solar has several important design considerations that must be followed for best performance. One, decide what kind of freeze protection you intend to have and make sure it is foolproof. No failure of any kind can lead to a freeze up in the panels. This is a must! Don't make it "unlikely" to freeze, make it impossible to freeze. Two, design the system to cool the collectors, not heat the water. Solar efficiency is based on temperature, the lower the better and the greatest amount of energy will come from the panels if they are running cool. Steam is a ridiculous display that will do nothing for the house. This is why it works so well with in-slab radiant, because the floor is running so cool compared to baseboard radiators, for instance. The design must have relatively large storage, relatively high flow rates and probably no collectors in series. Use plain water with only minimal water treatment that won't change its viscosity or make it toxic.

My system heats the floor and the hot water while preheating the 400 pounds of iron in the boiler. Oil is the backup but can only run if certain criteria are met. All of the controls are very simple and reliable. There are no outside sensors for the radiant, as I care about the inside temp and there is always enough temperature to do the work. There are no floor sensors either because the wall thermostat is better suited to comfort. Floor sensors are required if you have a radiant floor inside a forced air zone, but not for radiant only. Again, it's the overall comfort we're interested in and air temp is a better measurement than floor temp because heat can also come from lighting, cooking, people, a fireplace, the sun, etc. Floor temperature sensors know nothing about those other influences on overall comfort, wall thermostats do.
You must not have a large temp swing during a day. I do. Outdoor reset is essential on a high mass system in my location. I added it when the temp swings inside the house were unbearable. Unless your setback thermostat can account for the weather then reset is the ticket.

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yeldogt

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
18,184
Raspy -- W/O some form of outdoor reset a well insulated house w/high mass would easily overheat in my climate.

Outdoor reset W/ flow control on the manifolds for initial setup ..... gets almost a set and forget system w/ comfort and efficiency.

Condensing boilers work fine at full output -- it's all about the return temp delta and that's controlled with V flow -- and mixing valves.

That's why I really like the old cast iron boilers for radiant -- but they are fading away with gas. There you could use temps -- higher temps through the tube w/ max floor temp on the wood floors.
 

raspy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
103
Location
Wellington, Nevada
yeldogt,

It's just a different way of doing it. Set and forget is what we are trying to avoid because of the reasons I've stated and the classic complaints I've heard for many years from homeowners. It's less efficient and less comfortable. A constant temperature is not as comfortable, or as practical, or as efficient, as a setback controlled system. I've proven this over and over on literally hundreds of homes. Yes, we want to set and forget the thermostats, but we don't want constant flow and we do want setback thermostats for various reasons. Your theory assumes you want the temp to always be the same in the house, which is fine, if that's what you want, but it's not as comfortable or as efficient. It also assumes you can track the interior temp based on the exterior temp, which is only marginally true, but takes away effective recovery rates. We don't allow that and we've found a number of those type controls that were abandoned earlier by others. Flow control at the manifold was an old school way that radiant was done in the 1950s. It also causes uneven heating in a given loop unless the loops are placed in a spiral arrangement. If you really sit down and figure out what comfort means and the advantages of radiant heat, you can begin to tailor the experience for each home owner. It's never best to simply say "you must have this theory and always be the same temp." or "your inside temp must be based on outside temp". No it's the inside temp, how you get there and how different areas are lived in that is the most important.

Actually, condensing boilers, work very well through their operating range and exceptionally well when throttled. They can deliver an accurate temperature based on modulating the gas instead of a rudimentary on-off aquastat. The best ones I've used are Triangle Tube Solo models. Installed many of them on new and retrofit homes.

It's akin to how a car is driven. Heavy throttle at low speeds to get up on the highway and then throttled back to maintain a set speed. Think how clumsy it would be to regulate your car speed, on the highway, by holding the throttle floored and turning the key on and off to hold a speed. Same concept as boiler controls. Old boilers are off and on. Condensing boilers are modulating. Suddenly, you don't have to have massive iron boilers to mask the control problems or tempering valves to do what flame modulation can do. And when throttled, condensing boilers are more efficient by about 10%.

When combining solar thermal with radiant, it's important to keep the backup heat off as much as possible to allow the solar to work in it's most efficient way. This again, calls for keeping the boiler off unless it's needed and not constantly circulating. This can lead to small temperature fluctuations in the house, but the payback is well worth it and the fuctuations are minimized by the mass of the floor.

It's fun to try different methods and analyze different strategies for their effectiveness. Comfort and efficiency are the name of the game. Sometimes dogmatic approaches to different problems can prove to be less than optimal. Every strategy that can be imagined has been tried and I've had to cut out and redesign some pretty poor work that was designed by engineers who had a different priority or just did not understand the repercussions of their approach. Some designs have proven to be very good and only needed fine tuning. Now we have condensing boilers that have brought improvements in a number of ways. I decided to go with the old school cast iron boiler on mine because of their relative simplicity and because I wanted to use oil as my backup. I want to avoid propane whenever possible.

It's also important to talk to the homeowners, see how they live and what they expect. Most have no idea what to expect and think radiant will be like forced air. It's not. I have people tell me, after a few years, that the radiant system is their favorite thing about the house. I have them tell me that it never runs too. Which is funny because it clearly shows how, if made invisible it's dong it's job best. I'll show them how many hours it ran in a month and they are surprised. I'll ask them to step on the concrete outside and compare it to the bathroom floor. Wow! It is working! I even had one homeowner tell me they didn't know they had a thermostat, and they had lived there for about thirty years. It's not unusual to be told someone doesn't know how to adjust the thermostat. That's because they've never had to. Some of my favorite stories are of people who raised their child in a cold bedroom, or didn't know there was radiant in the floor of the master bedroom. I come along, make some adjustments, and they marvel at how they have been cold for so long for no good reason. Many systems are just not set up right in the beginning and can be easily fixed.

Silent and invisible. Provide a different experiences in different rooms. Has a low operating cost. These are the goals.
 
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