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Severely out of square foundation

thunderskunk

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Hi!

I screwed up, hard. The short of it is: we're trying to build a garage for my machine shop equipment that has to move. Screw up #1: It was supposed to be 39x32; I laid this out on center, and now it's 40x33. Not a big deal. Bigger deal is the entire frost wall is out of square by 8" (if I'm measuring square correctly; corner to corner reads 52'2" in one direction and 51'6" to opposite corners). Any tips/tricks to squaring the structure to the not-so-square slab?
 
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The Cobbler

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8" on 50' on basically a 45° can be partially ( maybe mostly) taken up by cheating the bottom plates. overhang them more at 1 end than the other to "square up" the framing . a math wiz can figure out how much overhang would have to change from 1 end to the other
2x6 you could cheat more than a 2x4 too
 

kaymccampbell

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So long as the walls that support your trusses are parallel it won't matter that much. You might use a few extra sheets of plywood on the roof, and a few extra sheets of drywall on the ceiling, but that's about all.
 

kaymccampbell

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^^^ but it's a pain in the **** from trusses, to interior , exterior& roof sheathing, etc
better to fix than fight it all the way
I tried to fix mine. I had the foundation done by others and no edge of the foundation is the same length, nor are any of the four corners the same height. I was able to tweak some of it out by custom cutting every stud and slightly edging walls over the foundation. But not enough to fix it. It was easier to accept the inevitable and just go with a crooked house. Using a bit more drywall and sheathing was easier.
 
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thunderskunk

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Northern Vermont. Snow load is 50# here.

To Kaymccambells and The Cobbler's points, it's about an inch overhang with a 2x6. I've had this in CAD 10 ways to Sunday, I just don't know how much overhang, if any, is acceptable. The image below: Blue lines are square sill plate, dotted lines are concrete, and outer lines are foam insulation from Amvic forms.

foundation.PNG
 
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thunderskunk

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About 1-1/2" yea.

Thanks guys. I’ve been stressing on this one a bit. There’s plenty of info out there that says the foundation should be square, not much about what to do when it’s not.
 

kaymccampbell

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You could always do 2x8 studs n plates along the really wonky wall, guaranteeing a full x6 support surface. I'd want that if that was my truss bearing wall.

Or you could do what most ****** contractors do, follow the foundation and rack the building a bit to make a square ceiling. They don't usually fall over, much.
 

PCustoms

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Post a pic of the foundation.

Is this a slab, frost walls or full basement?

If slab, I'd run a few courses of block on top to get everything square and off the ground.
 

4x4Pete

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If it's a slab and it was poured bigger than spec'd (40x33 vs 39x32) just build it square with the pad sticking out where it's too wide. Keeping the sill plates fully supported. And fire the contractor.
 

mike93lx

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If it's a slab and it was poured bigger than spec'd (40x33 vs 39x32) just build it square with the pad sticking out where it's too wide. Keeping the sill plates fully supported. And fire the contractor.
That can create a great way to end up with water coming under the bottom plate or having water sit against the foundation
 

4x4Pete

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That can create a great way to end up with water coming under the bottom plate or having water sit against the foundation

I guess it's better to build it crooked and deal with it? Might as well make it really crooked like you meant to. Lol! I would build it square and deal with the minor possible issue of water intrusion with Kay's suggestion.
 

mike93lx

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I guess it's better to build it crooked and deal with it? Might as well make it really crooked like you meant to. Lol! I would build it square and deal with the minor possible issue of water intrusion with Kay's suggestion.
Not sure why my post elicited that response. I am advocating building it square, but don't think that leaving exposed slab is prudent.
 
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thunderskunk

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7E7CF2DC-87DE-47B5-B131-ADC25E20267E.jpeg
Slab on grade. We have quite a bit of fill to do. I didn’t cut exits for the bay doors, so planning on sloping to internal drain. Better that way in case a machine leaks so it doesn’t stain the bottom of the door with oil. Radiant floor heat, 8” thick. Joint is somewhat TBD; I think I’ll just cut 8” of foam off the Amvic. It’s important that the floor insulation join the wall insulation.

Boy I’d love to fire my contractor…
 

CraigStu

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I would want to get it square. Drywall, I wouldn't mind fudging some. But the roof plywood (?) can be a huge pain. You either mark it, slide it back to the ground for the cuts or try to cut it in place. Neither one is much fun. And it isn't fun adding a 2x4 sister to one of the truss top plates so your too short plywood has something to be nailed to. I'd grab some 2x6s and set them on the top of the foundation at each corner w/ a 20-30# bag of something holding them in place. Do your measurements and then start moving them until your diagonals match. I am betting that you can get it square w/ minimal overhangs/underhangs.
 

tstaude

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You should be fine to square up the building over the parallelogram slab.

Just chalk line the 'perfect' rectangle on the interior of the 2x6 and let the overhang do its thing.

At my in-law's brand new build we had to correct about 2" over a 10' span. He's a GC on $1 million dollar homes and said it's actually pretty normal!

My concrete guy some how managed to get my garage slab within 1/8" of square.... he's pretty good.
 
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duneslider

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On my house one wall of the garage was a few inches out of square on one wall about 10' long, we just switched that framing to 2x6 and it over hangs at one end about 1.5" and is flush at the other. It isn't even noticeable unless you know you are looking for it.

Not sure if you have engineering done or not but in my case the garage walls were planned to be 2x4, switching to 2x6 still gave me the same or more bearing on the foundation, so my engineer told me not to worry about it and that I was probably better off than the original plan but the change didn't warrant any further action.
 

PCustoms

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Slab on grade. We have quite a bit of fill to do. I didn’t cut exits for the bay doors, so planning on sloping to internal drain. Better that way in case a machine leaks so it doesn’t stain the bottom of the door with oil. Radiant floor heat, 8” thick. Joint is somewhat TBD; I think I’ll just cut 8” of foam off the Amvic. It’s important that the floor insulation join the wall insulation.

Boy I’d love to fire my contractor…
That doesn't look like slab on grade to me.....

Assuming that you won't have grade right up to the top of that concrete wall, I think you can easily square up your sill plates and then frame off of that. Use an oversized sill plate if necessary.
 

4x4Pete

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Not sure why my post elicited that response. I am advocating building it square, but don't think that leaving exposed slab is prudent.
Mike, I didnt mean to come across as negative to your post, that's why I put the lol. It's a bad situation either way you build it. If the slab is exposed or the sill plates are overhanging pick your evil. My intention was to get the point across not to continue with the out of square construction. One mistake shouldn't ruin the whole project or make it considerably more difficult. I'd rather deal with an exposed slab with flashing. Having a sill plate overhang the slab would be more difficult to deal with in my opinion.
 
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thunderskunk

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Did it get out of square because a lack of bracing on the walls when poured ?
Sort of. The footer pour went well, but we had a blowout on one end. The person who caught it stacked rocks and actually over-compensated, so we had a high spot. One footer was staked a bit too narrow, so we squared everything to that footer within 1”. When we laid more courses of ICF, I’m pretty sure the rebar corners pushed things out of wack. It was 8” out of square before we even poured, but there was nothing we could do in the time we had.

That doesn't look like slab on grade to me.....

Assuming that you won't have grade right up to the top of that concrete wall, I think you can easily square up your sill plates and then frame off of that. Use an oversized sill plate if necessary.
It’s a bad angle, but it will be. The kid who dug it for me was a bit too generous in the material he took out. We need a lot of fill.
 

PCustoms

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It’s a bad angle, but it will be. The kid who dug it for me was a bit too generous in the material he took out. We need a lot of fill.
Do you have a sketch or plan?

Maybe it's just a terminology thing, but to me slab on grade has always been a slab, poured directly on grade. Maybe a thickened edge here in the NE (I live in So. VT, grew up in ME).

With your pour so far I would expect the walls to be framed on top of your frost walls and a slab to be poured inside that perimeter. As long as you can keep the sill plate about 12" above the dirt (more is better) you should easily be able to square the sill and frame from there.

If you are pouring the slab on top of those frost walls, square the slab pour up and go from there, or put 3 courses of block on top of the slab (squared up) and frame from there
 

brownbagg

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do the 3,4,5 and find a square corner and then work off it, after you done you could pour an arpon for a lean to and nobody would ever know. but you always work in mult of four so your material will work. 39 doesnt work
 
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thunderskunk

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Do you have a sketch or plan?

Maybe it's just a terminology thing, but to me slab on grade has always been a slab, poured directly on grade. Maybe a thickened edge here in the NE (I live in So. VT, grew up in ME).

With your pour so far I would expect the walls to be framed on top of your frost walls and a slab to be poured inside that perimeter. As long as you can keep the sill plate about 12" above the dirt (more is better) you should easily be able to square the sill and frame from there.

If you are pouring the slab on top of those frost walls, square the slab pour up and go from there, or put 3 courses of block on top of the slab (squared up) and frame from there
I bought these plans: Behm design 975-6

Thus the 39’ length. Intent was originally 40 anyways. I’ve heard folks say “it should be divisible by 4” multiple times, and my own experience has been I end up cutting wood anyways, no good way about it. The 33’ thing doesn’t scare me. What does scare me is the roof as I went from using nominal length stuff to… well, not nominal length, but even then, I’ve got a plasma cutter to make short work of the tin.

I was impressed with what you get with these plans, and the fella that made them is super helpful. And somewhat reasonably priced I thought.

You had me double checking, but I think it’s still a “slab on grade.” The deep footer is to get through the frost line (4.5’ for this area). It’s a big building that I really don’t want moving around. The slab will be poured with the walls used as an outside form, and the fill will be packed right up to the edge on the outside.
 

brownbagg

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39x25, I would of took off running, because you still buying material for 40x28 but cutting it up and wasting. nobody in their right mind design without multi of four, this designer is a crackpot, no telling what else is wrong with the plans
 

The Cobbler

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^^^ I do not agree. I doubt the material waste is all that much . negligible ... my garage was an odd size as I had to fit within sqft etc. someone told me I was crazy to build it 17' wide due to so much waste. I asked about the waste inside? he didn't say much. when it was all said & done, I had a very small pile of waste. the framers were very efficient with the use of material ( that I supplied) multiples of 4' sound good in theory , but in practice not everything is in 4' grids and works just fine
 

crazylunker

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If I were doing it, I would put up the building square and evenly placed on the foundation then flare the siding at the bottom(common cape style). down the road maybe finish the foundation with some cut stone to make it look even.
 

racecougar

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but even then, I’ve got a plasma cutter to make short work of the tin.
A plasma cutter will not make for clean cuts on your tin work. Shears or a circle saw are the typical go-to.

You had me double checking, but I think it’s still a “slab on grade.” The deep footer is to get through the frost line (4.5’ for this area). It’s a big building that I really don’t want moving around. The slab will be poured with the walls used as an outside form, and the fill will be packed right up to the edge on the outside.
What you're describing and what is shown in the photo is typically considered a full foundation around here.

 

ConCretin

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Just to get the terminology correct. You do NOT have an out-of-square slab. You have an out-of-square frost wall foundation. You haven't started on your slab on grade yet.

Maybe I missed the answer but I'm also curious what is actually causing the out of square condition. Were the ICF walls built this way from the footing up or did the foundation rack and is no longer plumb? Either is feasible given the lack of bracing but I suspect it's the former.

Regardless of the cause, I would correct the problem before proceeding with framing. A skilled framer could finesse it but unless you have one there is no way I'd fight this problem all the way through. Your diagonal measurement should be 51'-10 1/4" so you are out about 4" in either direction. It obviously depends on which way it's racked but you should theoretically have lips and overhangs of about 2". Not insignificant but probably manageable.

Put a plate down with square corners that is wide enough for bearing and attachment and then figure out how to deal with the lips and overhangs. You need to cover the exposed ICF foam anyway so you could remove foam where you have lips and furr it out where your structure overhangs. You could then cover it all with metal flashing, stucco, etc. to ground level on the outside. Likewise, remove foam on the inside as necessary so your slab on grade covers your sins there.

Btw, Unless you want to see the top of the ICF wall where you drive in, I'd go ahead and cut out some "exits" so your slab can pour over the frost walls. It's the way it's generally done. Also, make sure your slab edge lines up with your corrected wall lines rather than the frost wall below.
 
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thunderskunk

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A plasma cutter will not make for clean cuts on your tin work. Shears or a circle saw are the typical go-to.


What you're describing and what is shown in the photo is typically considered a full foundation around here.


Makes sense: full foundation it is. Thanks!

I’ll challenge the plasma cutter not making a good enough cut though. I worked for Hypertherm as an engineer. By hand, a good straight edge made from pieces of the same material and the right settings would make short work of it. Might have to strip the paint depending, but might get away with it on. I can even cheat as I have a table with torch height control. I haven’t tried programming z-height changes this drastic yet, but it can do it. A circular saw will probably still be easier to deal with, but I don’t think a plasma cutter would not work.


Just to get the terminology correct. You do NOT have an out-of-square slab. You have an out-of-square frost wall foundation. You haven't started on your slab on grade yet.

Maybe I missed the answer but I'm also curious what is actually causing the out of square condition. Were the ICF walls built this way from the footing up or did the foundation rack and is no longer plumb? Either is feasible given the lack of bracing but I suspect it's the former.

Regardless of the cause, I would correct the problem before proceeding with framing. A skilled framer could finesse it but unless you have one there is no way I'd fight this problem all the way through. Your diagonal measurement should be 51'-10 1/4" so you are out about 4" in either direction. It obviously depends on which way it's racked but you should theoretically have lips and overhangs of about 2". Not insignificant but probably manageable.

Put a plate down with square corners that is wide enough for bearing and attachment and then figure out how to deal with the lips and overhangs. You need to cover the exposed ICF foam anyway so you could remove foam where you have lips and furr it out where your structure overhangs. You could then cover it all with metal flashing, stucc, etc. to ground level on the outside. Likewise, remove foam on the inside as necessary so your slab on grade covers your sins on the inside.

Btw, Unless you want to see the top of the ICF wall where you drive in, I'd go ahead and cut out some "exits" so your slab can pour over the frost walls. It's the way it's generally done. Also, make sure your slab edge lines up with your corrected wall lines rather than the frost wall below.
The root cause is me being dumb. The last time I check square was to the pins laid in the footer base. It was out by 1” and I was supposed to correct when laying the forms. We were in a rush to finish the forms, and by the time I checked square, we’d already installed and tied rebar to a point that it would be several hours to fix if not days. To our credit, we had the forms installed in three days and had just barely poured the base 6 days prior. Lesson learned: we rushed and we laid for it. I canceled the slab pour until we get the mistakes sorted out.

The walls are plumb and straight, just not square; we used a lot more bracing than you can see, and more than the guy who sold it to us recommended. He said the diagonals are critical on one side, but the supports at the top of the wall are just for adjustment after the face. This is very short for an ICF wall. I actually called Amvic and asked if I could just backfill the forms for support, and they said go for it. I didn’t do it, and glad I didn’t, but it probably would have worked.
 

ConCretin

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The root cause is me being dumb. The last time I check square was to the pins laid in the footer base. It was out by 1” and I was supposed to correct when laying the forms. We were in a rush to finish the forms, and by the time I checked square, we’d already installed and tied rebar to a point that it would be several hours to fix if not days. To our credit, we had the forms installed in three days and had just barely poured the base 6 days prior. Lesson learned: we rushed and we laid for it. I canceled the slab pour until we get the mistakes sorted out.

The walls are plumb and straight, just not square; we used a lot more bracing than you can see, and more than the guy who sold it to us recommended. He said the diagonals are critical on one side, but the supports at the top of the wall are just for adjustment after the face. This is very short for an ICF wall. I actually called Amvic and asked if I could just backfill the forms for support, and they said go for it. I didn’t do it, and glad I didn’t, but it probably would have worked.
Thanks for responding. At least what you've built is structurally sound.

There's a difference between being dumb and making mistakes due to inexperience with something new. Been there, done that. Nothing that can't be fixed. You'll be in your new shop, looking back and laughing before you know it.
 
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racecougar

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I’ll challenge the plasma cutter not making a good enough cut though. I worked for Hypertherm as an engineer. By hand, a good straight edge made from pieces of the same material and the right settings would make short work of it. Might have to strip the paint depending, but might get away with it on. I can even cheat as I have a table with torch height control. I haven’t tried programming z-height changes this drastic yet, but it can do it. A circular saw will probably still be easier to deal with, but I don’t think a plasma cutter would not work.
We're talking about Ag panels, right? I get that you could make a straight cut, but you're going to burn the paint/coating, and I'd expect at least some slag/jaggedness to the edge compared to shears or a circle saw. If you have a burn table, you'll certainly get better results than by hand, but I'd be interested to see just how clean of a cut you're able to make.
 

nh_yota

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Do whatever you need to do so your structure is square and plumb. Overhang the frost wall, underhang the frost wall, pour some extra concrete and pin into the wall, whatever. It's better for the framing to extend out over the wall but if it's the other way around you can mitigate water intrusion with metal flashing.

You can hide a small variance by fudging your framing but past a certain point it goes the other way and works against you.
 

paredown

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If I were doing it, I would put up the building square and evenly placed on the foundation then flare the siding at the bottom(common cape style). down the road maybe finish the foundation with some cut stone to make it look even.
Less fancy would be to parge the exposed sections with mesh and mortar like you would a finished house if it is exposed enough that you would notice.

I totally agree with the 'build it square' advice--it will drive you crazy if you replicate the error going up. And yes, there is a difference between dumb and inexperienced--I find myself in the latter category often. OTOH, I'm often tackling first time projects with incomplete information. Better to learn by doing than sit on a couch and never try stuff.
 

andyvh1959

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Build it square or you're constantly trying to make adjustments in many direction. I'm all for two rows of block set on the slab to make the base square, and it gets the sill plate well above the grade. You can also hose out the inside without getting the sill plate wet. Plus you gain another 16" of interior height. The anchor bolts for the sill plate can be set through the block. With the block base set square within the parallelogram of the slab you can backfill around the outside with gravel before doing the final grade of soil.

I was the "contractor" for my 24x28 shop build. I hired the site prep, lock edge floating slab, two rows of masonry block to get the sill plate up and suit the slight grade of the site, then hired a friend to frame it up and get the trusses up top as I was traveling weekly out of state for work. When I did the final spacing on the trusses I could not get the spacing right, east side versus the west. Tried it a couple times, measured from each end, until I measured the outside of the east and west walls, found one was 1.5" longer than the other. Somewhere from the slab up someone made it out of square. I managed to compensate for it, but it was more work for me than I paid for.
 
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