Shadowboarding

[osaapamerica]

Hey guys: I am writing with a question. We setup OSAAP America and we are manufacturing Shadow Boards here in North America. We sell to Aerospace Maintenance and Manufacturing. My question is - do you think the private home mechanic would be interested in what we do? I am not sure how to sell to the DYI market - not something I know much about.

Here is a link to how our process works:

Your advice please?

 

[jhnlngn]

I think a lot of us would be as there have been several threads here with a lot of people looking into it. The biggest factor is going to be cost.

 

[hautpot]

Honestly, the casual user would proably use cheaper alternatives. I have seen boxes equiped with craft foam or packaging foam.

 

[racinfarmer]

Do you have a website in English?

Looking for some costs and can't really determine what it would be.

 

[hautpot]

oh and you have lots of competitors to go put against.

 

[osaapamerica]

www.osaapamerica.com

cost is by the square inch some exsamples in 1 inch thick are
qty 1 is 33 cents/sq in
qty 10 is 21 cents/ sq in

 

[osaapamerica]

Keep in mind the OSAAP idea is you take a picture of the tools and load the image into FREE CAD software. You do not need to ship the tools anyplace. The kicker is that you do need the OSAAP light panel to take the photo on. It is the frame of the light panel that is used as the datum in the software for auto scaling the tools to size.

We do well in Industry because sales people have light panels to loan out and customers buy them as well. in the home market I need a method to get the light panel in the hands of the user. Not sure how to do that??

I guess the question is: would guys want to do the home sales thing, to make a few extra $$, like our wives do to sell stuff??

Not sure

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

Sweet, now I can have a perfectly fitting set of mismatched tools
The interface looks great.

 

[Spoiled Bradt]

Keep in mind the OSAAP idea is you take a picture of the tools and load the image into FREE CAD software. You do not need to ship the tools anyplace. The kicker is that you do need the OSAAP light panel to take the photo on. It is the frame of the light panel that is used as the datum in the software for auto scaling the tools to size.

We do well in Industry because sales people have light panels to loan out and customers buy them as well. in the home market I need a method to get the light panel in the hands of the user. Not sure how to do that??

I guess the question is: would guys want to do the home sales thing, to make a few extra $$, like our wives do to sell stuff??

Not sure

Could you program in and pick a specific brand and model # of grid paper and customers could use that ?

 

[MilwaukeeFish]

We do well in Industry because sales people have light panels to loan out and customers buy them as well. in the home market I need a method to get the light panel in the hands of the user. Not sure how to do that??

What about renting out the light panels to customers with a deposit that is refunded on the panel's safe return? Maybe have your sales people handle the rentals in each region and cut them in on a commission for each rental?

--

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

For a B&W shadow, I doubt it's that picky, probably just need to light a square of the correct dimensions. Maybe a sheet, rice paper,or some diffusion cloth.

 

[osaapamerica]

Sorry No - the picture must be taken on the OSAAP light panel with a camera setup correctly. It is the frame of the light panel that is the datum. The light panel in one piece of foam, for protection, costs $210. Camera is a Cannon Power Shot that you can get on Amazon for $120. We supply a complete kit in a zip up case with everything including two a foam inlays 1) for the light panel and 2) cut out to hold the camera, charger, power cable, and a caliper for $650.

I was thinking guys could purchase the kit and sell foam shadowboards to the people they know in their local area.

 

[Motorhead Extraordinaire]

We have done quite a few Shadow Board projects, all for big companies not individuals. Doing them right takes both a good process, talent, time, and money.

We looked at a lot of methods including shadow boxes, photography, and even 3D imagery. Of course there is the trace and cut with a razor blade mode also but that is generally not pretty and definitely not repeatable. We settled in with a grid system and careful measurements. In every case a fair amount of CAD work was needed along with a bunch of check plots to test and validate both placement and fitment.

The big issue is cost, especially for the average Joe. No matter how you slice it it is a time consuming and expensive task. Other than being OCD or looking cool in the home or small shop there is no compelling need for expensive shadow boards in a home or small business shop.

For applications where FOD (Foreign Object Debris) is of concern, as in aircraft maintenance, DOD applications or high value storage, the cost of the design process and manufacturing are on no concern; shadow boards are a must. Those tool kits are fixed in content and fully managed. We have even gone so far as to laser etch serial numbers in the tools.

Not to sound like doom and gloom but I do not believe there is a big enough individual end-user market to form a business around. In the 1000's of Lista and Vidmar cabinets we have sold I have never had an end user customer who went beyond curiosity with shadow boards. It has always been with a major contractor type.

I think the real shadowboard market lies with jobs that have FOD or high value management requirements not with a Garage Journal type of person.

IMHO

Joe

 

[ishiboo]

Yeah, it's simply way too expensive for the actual material/production alone, ignoring the fact that you insist your foam and camera is purchased with it.

They key is going to be someone who figures out how to make a PDF you download and print out to scale, throw next to a bunch of your tools on a piece of green poster board you bought for $5, took a picture and emailed it to a place that lasers your foam out in 2 minutes for $30 a drawer.

 

[T45]

"Use your equipment to make mm size tear outs to fit a hf 44."

What does this even mean? Don't all of the tool layouts need to reflect the specific tools? Even with standard wrenches, each brand requires unique cuts for length+width. Or is this a different idea altogether I'm missing/?

I'd be more interested even in small kits for stuff like sockets, wrenches, etc in blocks that can be stabilized in a drawer without needing the entire layout custome done. You could easily build these like the military kits or things like hazet assistant, but those tend to still not be very cheap. A couple of sets in a drawer is likely over $50. (edit: eg, see facom foam modules -- still too oem specific, and expensive but a cool idea).

For the non FOD user, its not critical that every square inch of the box is shadowed. You just need your high-value tools organized and freely available. Other things can be organized in loose arrays.

 

[Zeke]

Yeah, it's simply way too expensive for the actual material/production alone, ignoring the fact that you insist your foam and camera is purchased with it.

They key is going to be someone who figures out how to make a PDF you download and print out to scale, throw next to a bunch of your tools on a piece of green poster board you bought for $5, took a picture and emailed it to a place that lasers your foam out in 2 minutes for $30 a drawer.

This ^^^^^ To get this out to the individual market, even if an individual was selling to locals, the steps have to be eliminated.

Also, the prepackaged idea is good. A little oversized to fit most boxes with the typical socket or wrench combinations. You can add custom options. You need to have typical files on hand so you can accommodate 90% of the needs.

There's just too much organizing products already out there. Have you looked into medical?

 

[T45]

So you are saying build it like a pelican case? It works fine for cameras and electronics and such. I don't see it working very well for 1/4 inch sockets or lots of everyday tools for some reason. Those removable foam squares don't seem like they are 1mm dimension either. And if they were, wouldn't moving stuff around be a PITA? The OP system and others allow you to test placements via CAD. Just freehanding it seems unlikely to be optimal. A/V stuff and photo works because the units are sort of chunky and the workflow doesn't have you grabbing gear all day.

mm is a measurement.
Tear out is little, in this case mm squares, that you remove to custom fit equipment.
Hf is harbor freight.
44 is a harbor freight 44 inch tool box.
It has many drawers.
They add up to just under 9000sq inches of surface.
I call the hf a box and compare it to a lista. I didn't think he'd be confused by writing of boxes in thread about boxrs, and calling them boxes and referencing the sq inches he references as a cost base.

If the OP didn't understand, he's not the guy that should be hawking wares for toolboxes.

I'm sorry.

 

[osaapamerica]

We have done quite a few Shadow Board projects, all for big companies not individuals. Doing them right takes both a good process, talent, time, and money.

We looked at a lot of methods including shadow boxes, photography, and even 3D imagery. Of course there is the trace and cut with a razor blade mode also but that is generally not pretty and definitely not repeatable. We settled in with a grid system and careful measurements. In every case a fair amount of CAD work was needed along with a bunch of check plots to test and validate both placement and fitment.

The big issue is cost, especially for the average Joe. No matter how you slice it it is a time consuming and expensive task. Other than being OCD or looking cool in the home or small shop there is no compelling need for expensive shadow boards in a home or small business shop.

For applications where FOD (Foreign Object Debris) is of concern, as in aircraft maintenance, DOD applications or high value storage, the cost of the design process and manufacturing are on no concern; shadow boards are a must. Those tool kits are fixed in content and fully managed. We have even gone so far as to laser etch serial numbers in the tools.

Not to sound like doom and gloom but I do not believe there is a big enough individual end-user market to form a business around. In the 1000's of Lista and Vidmar cabinets we have sold I have never had an end user customer who went beyond curiosity with shadow boards. It has always been with a major contractor type.

I think the real shadowboard market lies with jobs that have FOD or high value management requirements not with a Garage Journal type of person.

IMHO

Joe

Thanks Joe - we are doing well in Industry and you are correct this takes a very good process to do correctly. I just get so many individuals asking me for shadowboards and I cannot help them with the org structure we have now.

I am on the board here just looking for ideas and comments

Thank you again for your feed back

 

[osaapamerica]

What about renting out the light panels to customers with a deposit that is refunded on the panel's safe return? Maybe have your sales people handle the rentals in each region and cut them in on a commission for each rental?

--

Ha - now there is a new idea.

Rental could work - I would even loan the light panel kits out to people that paid shipping. We would take a credit card for full value and only charge shipping when returned in new condition. Lost items like the charger would also be billed to the CC#

Very good ides

Thank you

 

[osaapamerica]

At $50a sqft I have no interest at all.
At $20 a sqft... $80 a drawer would still not be tempting.
How many sq inches of storage in a hf 44?
Quick, and bad, math tells me just under 9000 square inches of drawer floor surface
Times 33 cents.... Just under $4000 for a hf 44 to be shadowboxed.
Plus lots of hours on camera setup
Plus never being able to change things around.

Use your equipment to make mm size tear outs to fit a hf 44.
Your cost is simply foam and a machine running in off hours.
I'd buy a set of tear outs.

For every lista box of lord knows what size that's owned by a GJ type guy, there are maybe 20(maybe 100) hf44's of all the same dimension.
It becomes an instock item instead of a custom item.
No camera needed to make 10 times the sales.

Sorry I am not following your math - I will double check it later.

email me and I will send you our pricing worksheet - would really love some feedback on our correct prices

[email protected]

 

[osaapamerica]

Here is a real pricing example

16" x 18" drawer with 30MM thick foam

qty 1 - price/$114.91
qty 2 - 3 - price/$97.67
qty 4 - 6 - price/$89.63
qty 6 - 10 - price/$80.44

These are list prices, a distributor buys from us at 30% less.

What do you guys think - any chance the individual would pay these prices.

NOTE: we laser in text so you can have part numbers and personal information laser marked into the foam cost +$25

I will add some pictures of the laser text to my profile later

 

[wkndwarrior29]

I think a business model like foamfit tools, where you maintain CAD templates for different common tool kits would be great if you keep your customization charges reasonable. I would have loved one of thier socket organizers for my craftsman 299 piece set but the customization fee to modify the layout for my drawer size was ridiculous. It doesn't seem to be in alignment with your current services, but would be the easiest way to get into the consumer toolbox.

 

[shortykorte]

The price is still somewhat high for the average Joe compared to other solutions, commercial or homemade.

Yes the size of the light box is the datum but so is a box drawn to the same size on a piece of paper. The light provides contrast in the final picture. The light box shouldn't be critical unless you are wanting to make the process fancier and more costly then it needs to be. (Note: I work daily in photogrammetric process)

Providing the user with a properly scaled template, instructions on taking a vertical B&W digital photo and providing end product at 33-50% less of your price above, you would have a market. Profits would be base on volume sales not a high margin specialty items.

 

[T45]

osaapamerica - I would think about this in the context of the box value people are using.

1) A HF 44 box has basically a 7-level drawer layout and is a $350 box. Not getting caught up in the details about the square inches, A 7 layer foam inlay 7x$80 is $560 or about $200 over the value of the box. A 3 layer inlay for most common tools would be $290, or 70% of the box total value.

2) A Truck-brand 7 drawer mobile workstation - might be $750 to $1200 in box invested. A 7 layer foam inlay again at $560 is now maybe 50% to75% of value, whist a 3 drawer setup at $290 is under 25% of value for the top end.

3) You can look at the foam as % of the total tool investment, including the storage, but alot of guys here are doing work with $2500 in tools and $560 in foam is a lot of capital *******--easily 20 pairs of pliers or a couple expensive torque wrenches worth of gear.

I would say that the perspective here is important. yes there are guys out there is 2-5k invested in their box but outside of the pro market that not the general home market. I would say the general amateur is looking at $2-5k in tools and $500-$1500 in tool storage. The numbers are just educated guesses but worth considering in terms of allocating capital to foam vs steel/tools.

 

[ultgar]

"Use your equipment to make mm size tear outs to fit a hf 44."

I'd be more interested even in small kits for stuff like sockets, wrenches, etc in blocks that can be stabilized in a drawer without needing the entire layout custome done. A couple of sets in a drawer is likely over $50. (edit: eg, see facom foam modules -- still too oem specific, and expensive but a cool idea).

The Facom foam module trays typically sell in the $20-30ea range. Here are the sets that come with the trays....see http://www.ultimategarage.com/shop/index.php?cPath=35_64_992 .

I always have some "blemished" trays caused by tools that come out of the trays and dent them in transit from France. These are usually $15ea. But you're right in that any trays will be fairly specific to the tool manufacturer. Here are some sets I have installed in a display cabinet out in the garage.... http://www.ultimategarage.com/Facom/jetideas.html

SD

 

[arrowhead]

I'm still not understanding the the light box technology. I would think if you sent the customer a white construction board with a known dimensional grid pattern on it, they could layout the tools on the grid and take a picture. You know the grid spacing so now you have the scale when you import the picture into your program. Maybe the light box is needed to provide the super defined image you need?

Let me know if you come up with a 3-D version so tools can be multi stacked. If I had to lay all my tools out one layer deep, I'd fill my whole shop with tool boxes

 

[ibedayank]

Here is a real pricing example

16" x 18" drawer with 30MM thick foam

qty 1 - price/$114.91
qty 2 - 3 - price/$97.67
qty 4 - 6 - price/$89.63
qty 6 - 10 - price/$80.44

These are list prices, a distributor buys from us at 30% less.

What do you guys think - any chance the individual would pay these prices.

NOTE: we laser in text so you can have part numbers and personal information laser marked into the foam cost +$25

I will add some pictures of the laser text to my profile later

just to do the top drawer would cost more then the box and still have 12 more drawers to do

 

[Zeke]

I don't think anyone is purposely offending the OP. Many times a business idea is floated here and a wide variety of opinion ensues. Most of the opinion is constructive.

Practicality is a common theme to any objections. This shadowboard business seem too expensive for the casual home market. It does look very nice and professional. I can see 100's of uses from shipping expensive and fragile merchandise, to show display, to industrial and institutional (like museums), medical, jewelry and the list just goes on and on.

Sure, armed with a $650 kit one could go out and knock on doors and get some sales. But if I'm going to do that I'm going with a product that everyone can use, not some high specialty product.

And half the places that I would want to hit wouldn't even think of letting me in with a camera yet.

Just some random thoughts trying to be objective.

 

[Motorhead Extraordinaire]

I think a business model like foamfit tools, where you maintain CAD templates for different common tool kits would be great if you keep your customization charges reasonable. I would have loved one of thier socket organizers for my craftsman 299 piece set but the customization fee to modify the layout for my drawer size was ridiculous. It doesn't seem to be in alignment with your current services, but would be the easiest way to get into the consumer toolbox.

Foamfit does a really great job. The money is all in the CAD design and verification process. Using core "tool modules" is a nice way to go at low cost. Foamfit has undertaken this for a lot of common tool sets. They will also take your CAD design and CNC the foam for you. They are a top notch outfit.

 

[osaapamerica]

Guys a new questions: We are adding a wiki type tool database to our software see: http://www.osaapamerica.com/training/online-selector-database/

Does anyone know how to get CAD drawings in bulk for Snap-on, Craftsman, SKTools and other brands?

Is their a website that has these CAD models ready for downlad?

 

[hautpot]

I HIGHLY doubt manufacturers are gonna open source their design data in bulk, these things are usually protected. Besides that have you realized how many hand tools exsist?

You could proably get away with sockets because they are just a simple cylinder. But spanners and ratchets? Forget about it.

 

[Motorhead Extraordinaire]

Guys a new questions: We are adding a wiki type tool database to our software see: http://www.osaapamerica.com/training/online-selector-database/

Does anyone know how to get CAD drawings in bulk for Snap-on, Craftsman, SKTools and other brands?

Is their a website that has these CAD models ready for downlad?

They are non-existant from the manufacturers. There is no financial incentive to make these available and then to maintain the shapes database. On one of our recent Shadowboard jobs for a DOD related client, we had about 1% of the tool shapes change from a year ago. 3 of 6 Shadowboards had to be redesigned and remade. Simple change like fatter insulation on a set of pliers, or a screwdriver that is 1/4" longer, can throw a shadowboard into the trash real fast.

There are literally millions of tool shapes. I will contend that shadowboards are needed for no more than 1% of the tool applications (all of which relate to FOD prevention or extremely high value items) and for no more than 1% for the die hard, and quite possibly OCD, unique individuals or small shops.

I believe that shadowboarding is a tough general consumer market. It is a highly specialized niche market. We do it as a service to our clients and it is always a unique one-off design with low volumes and high costs.

 

[osaapamerica]

Haupot: Thanks for making me laugh today. Love the Forget about it comment

 

[ZRX61]

Not a chance in hell. I operate out of 7 rollaways & a half dozen or so smaller boxes. If I was to use shadowboard I'd need at least 10 more rollaways just to house the same amount of tools that I have in the ones I already own.

 

[Karl_B]

I would love to shadow a few of my drawers, but it just doesn't make sense until I have exactly the assortment of tools I want for a given drawer. The ability to order a more modular solution would be nice. For instance, a section for each wrench set that I could then arrange in the drawer. If I added or removed some of them, I could just replace or modify that one section. Maybe even offer versions on a thin layer of plastic as a support to make them more managable or even stackable.

It would be possible, but maybe not feasible, to have certain common tools' measurements and an online drag-and-drop configuration option. You might even find volunteers to photograph their tools with your method so you can collect those individual dimensions. People with access to tool trucks, or running them, might even volunteer some tools for pictures. Then maybe they could also sell some of those shadowboards on the trucks. The demo tool box shadowed and filled with shiny tools would sure be a pretty display.

That is mostly a lot of random ideas off of the top of my head, but it seems it could be made to work.

 

[jhnlngn]

What if you provided the software and let people measure their tools and do the design themselves?

 

[Trey T]

We have done quite a few Shadow Board projects, all for big companies not individuals. Doing them right takes both a good process, talent, time, and money.

We looked at a lot of methods including shadow boxes, photography, and even 3D imagery. Of course there is the trace and cut with a razor blade mode also but that is generally not pretty and definitely not repeatable. We settled in with a grid system and careful measurements. In every case a fair amount of CAD work was needed along with a bunch of check plots to test and validate both placement and fitment.

The big issue is cost, especially for the average Joe. No matter how you slice it it is a time consuming and expensive task. Other than being OCD or looking cool in the home or small shop there is no compelling need for expensive shadow boards in a home or small business shop.

For applications where FOD (Foreign Object Debris) is of concern, as in aircraft maintenance, DOD applications or high value storage, the cost of the design process and manufacturing are on no concern; shadow boards are a must. Those tool kits are fixed in content and fully managed. We have even gone so far as to laser etch serial numbers in the tools.

Not to sound like doom and gloom but I do not believe there is a big enough individual end-user market to form a business around. In the 1000's of Lista and Vidmar cabinets we have sold I have never had an end user customer who went beyond curiosity with shadow boards. It has always been with a major contractor type.

I think the real shadowboard market lies with jobs that have FOD or high value management requirements not with a Garage Journal type of person.

IMHO

Joe

Tool truck brand will likely to streamline the process if there's enough demand. They have the dimension already as part of both tools and toolboxes manufacturing, and it's easy for them to use CNC technology to do it.

 

[Motorhead Extraordinaire]

Tool truck brand will likely to streamline the process if there's enough demand. They have the dimension already as part of both tools and toolboxes manufacturing, and it's easy for them to use CNC technology to do it.

Due to the simple facts that there are 1000's of different tools and 1000"s of different tool needs it would be impossible for the tool truck companies to make up configured foam sets. If they did that, they would not be able to sell you that "one more tool" because it might not fit in the foam set they sold you a month before.

There is one big thing they could do and that would be to make available the tool profiles in digital formats, CAD files, JPEG's, etc. that someone could use to build their own digital foam layout. Then it's a piece of cake to have the foam CNC machined by a company like FoamFit.com.

 

[thomps33]

I would love my drawers shadowboarded, but you would have to cut your costs by 1/2 or more to make me and most others interested. I think if you made the software available to the customer to design their own shadowboards you might be able to cut the cost enough to where the average joe might be able to afford them.

 

[AviationTech]

As someone who is OCD about tool accountability tools are expensive and leaving one in a bad place could lead to damage of worse, I still never shadowed my box until recently. The finished product of a shadowed tool box is very nice and I love it but I wouldn't have done it on my own. It was a ton of work and time(which the shop paid for since it was a new policy). I just finished mine, but it was all done by hand. That being said, I've worked in aviation 10 years and just got around to getting it done because my employer forced me. The overall consensus from most of my co-workers was that they did not want to do it. Many people took alot of tools home just because they all can't fit after shadowing. Even in aviation in my own experience tool shadowing is considered best practices but outside of DOD contracting and certain high end niche shops, my current employer was the first time I had personally come across it. After working many different places such as airlines, GA shops, component overhaul shops, and even manufacturer service centers none required it. Some required a full inventory that would be audited periodically, but not necessarily shadowed. You would usually find a few individuals who would do it out of there own merit. It would have to be very quick, easy, and cheap for it to catch on for the home DIY's and then you still have the limited space issue because so many people put so many tools in each drawer just my two cents, take it for what it's worse. The link below was the shadowing I did with an exacto knife.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=335907