Sharkbite Fittings

[rieferman]

The product is certified to high heaven for all sorts of uses including unions concealed behind walls.

It's a multi-stage fitting, with a "specially formulated o-ring".. see diagram here:
http://sharkbite.com/_images/pdfs/SB_Install_Inst_Eng.pdf

Also, they warranty (including repair to your home in case of leak) for 25 years... I'm thinking they're feeling pretty good about the longevity of the product.

Again, I'm just curious.. if it's ten times faster to use this product, and it will stand the test of time, the only downside would appear to be cost.

 

[MScott]

I have used them in two cottages, mine and my SIL's. No leaks and they are sooooo simple. Yes, they are more expensive than soldered copper, but anyone can do it, even a neophyte. I would highly recommend them especially if you are not an experienced plumber. Great for transitioning from copper to pex or vice versa.

 

[BBQ&Love]

Ya just gotta ask yourselves, why would plumbers like a design that removes the need for plumbers...

Just sayin.

The ability to join a water line together will never remove the need for a plumber.

 

[BBQ&Love]

I try and be on the bleeding edge, I think PEX with proper crimp rings/brass fittings/etc. is the way to plumb. The Sharkbites have always made me wonder, but a failure in any of the places I'd use them (basement) would not be the end of the world, and I've seen new houses with copper pipes which leaked a couple months after the build, PVC drains leak, etc.

I'm working on a new first floor laundry, and I purchased my first CSST and a termination plate for the dryer. I was pretty shocked to find all that seals the CSST to the brass fitting is a single rubber (actually I'm sure a composite with nitrile/etc, perhaps zero natural rubber at all) washer. Makes me wonder - are we living life on the edge with these washers, or is their material just above and beyond what we think of when we think of your typical washer?

Code tends to live far beyond the bleeding edge in the eye of safety, and while there was a big push for PEX acceptance once copper got so high, there was no big reason to leave black iron pipe other than installation convenience, which I'm all for. (Yes, there were reasons to switch, but not a huge push.) Are we being too careful?

I'm sure at some point, having running water in your house was asking for a leak, and having explosive gas piped through all the rooms of your house probably seemed like a HUGE risk for the early pioneers

Use Gastite. Metal to metal seal. I refuse to use CSST with rubber gaskets.

 

[BBQ&Love]

What is the actual sealing mechanism within a shark bite, would it be an O ring, would it be a compressed wedge of pliable gasket material like a dresser coupling / fitting. I have not seen these around here. If it is an o ring, the average o ring is not lasting very long in new faucets and such applications. They may be called a ford pack fitting around here, made of brass with a thread on one end.

It's an O-ring with a stainless steel ring that slides one way on the pipe but not the other way.

I used them myself. But ONLY for temporary applications.

 

[BBQ&Love]

I've seen that sentiment a bunch of times in this thread.. And again, I wonder why? The product is rated for concealed use.. I would imagine that any level of field failures would be a liability nightmare for the company producing the product, for the board certifying them for such use, and for any retailers selling the product.. So, my natural inclination (in this day and age) would be to trust the product based on their labeling. Not trying to be argumentative, just wondering why everyone distrusts the product - is it because the product is bad, or because any "new" product will be distrusted until it proves itself for 50 years?

There are any number of plumbing piping products out there that had all the right labeling but caused nightmares after a few years. Massive product failures, major liability lawsuits, ruined houses, disrupted lives, etc.

Trusting the labeling as you propose is something no wise plumber will EVER do. PERIOD!

I am not busting on you. Just saying there are reasons wise plumbers are skeptical and it has nothing to do with protecting their work.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

There are any number of plumbing piping products out there that had all the right labeling but caused nightmares after a few years. Massive product failures, major liability lawsuits, ruined houses, disrupted lives, etc.

Trusting the labeling as you propose is something no wise plumber will EVER do. PERIOD!

I am not busting on you. Just saying there are reasons wise plumbers are skeptical and it has nothing to do with protecting their work.

Agreed again, we see this stuff daily, we see it over the years and we get to discover on a daily basis the how when and where of product failure points. There are tricks to getting sheared ******* out of fittings, as small as 1/4". You just do your plumber magic and tie in a nice solid fitting that will last another 30 years. My biggest dig against modern materials is the life span, I personally like to try to get a long service life out of a repair. I just feel that we don't get that out of some of the new products. I don't know if you guys ever replaced a faucet seat out of an old Chicago brand faucet, the old ones were made of buna, I think you say it that way, it was hard and wore well, now you get a soft seat, the thing gets cut out in six months. I hit garage sales just to get the old ones, that's how good they were.
So these are very similar to what is called a Jaco or Jatco fitting in plastic, I have had Jaco's lose their seal, they drip a bit and you end up replacing them.

 

[BBQ&Love]

Just do a search for Entran II. (Rubber hose for radiant flooring.) All that comes up is links about lawsuits and problems. I never installed a single foot when I had my own company but a lot of plumbers did. It had all the right ratings and labels.

I dodged a bullet some of my friends didn't dodge. But it was because I used my head.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Nope, dodged that same bullet. You can't just put anything under concrete. I was doing the plumbing in a home and refused to install a similar product, I did the rest of the build, the GC hired a couple of ding a lings to install this stuff. They kept asking me for advice, not me, Had it right on my contract, not running heat system subfloor nor any heat related work. About 1 year later I get a call about a water leak, it must be you it must be you, look at my house you SOB, look at this, who is going to pay. GC came out, same bunk, I went to the boiler which has an operating pressure gauge on it, system is at 45 psi, turn off the water feed gauge, the pressure drops almost instantly, load it up again and repeat. What's that mean the GC says, means I'm going back home and catching the rest of my nights sleep and I handed him the contract copy. Not ME!

 

[DoubleDResources]

They work great. I've got quite a few rent house so I've always got several in the truck for emergencies. I always go back and and replace it with the correct fitting when I have time so I do wonder how well they hold up long term.

 

[danski0224]

The product is certified to high heaven for all sorts of uses including unions concealed behind walls.

It's a multi-stage fitting, with a "specially formulated o-ring".. see diagram here:
http://sharkbite.com/_images/pdfs/SB_Install_Inst_Eng.pdf

Also, they warranty (including repair to your home in case of leak) for 25 years... I'm thinking they're feeling pretty good about the longevity of the product.

Again, I'm just curious.. if it's ten times faster to use this product, and it will stand the test of time, the only downside would appear to be cost.

And what happens after 25 years?

My house, plumbed with copper and soldered joints, is over 25 years old. I have no immediate plans to tear open walls to redo the plumbing.

What has been your real life experience with 25 year old rubber products? I find the old rubber to be non-pliable or deteriorated. Sure, not the same formulation as today, but possibly the best technology available at the time.

Also keep in mind that the Sharkbite products are made in Taiwan. Maybe not as bad as China, but they aren't made in the USA. Improper brass alloys also lose their zinc and deteriorate.

I also have the same reservations about the RIDGID Pro Press system. The only thing preventing a leak is 2 rubber O rings. They also guarantee their system for 50 years. Yeah, it saves time compared to soldering, but what happens in a building that outlives the rubber O ring connections? The domestic water lines on a nearby hospital were all done with Pro Press at 1" and above. Do they intend to tear the building down within 50 years? How will some of these buried mechanicals be accessed if there are problems in the future?

I can't recall any massive product failure that did not involve a class action suit or bankruptcy to avoid claims.

Sharkbite and Pro Press can be a lifesaver in some applications, but until the products have a real world track record that outlives the product guarantee, this guy isn't using them in concealed locations.

 

[rieferman]

Thanks for the answers, I'm asking because I don't know, so hearing from guys in the trades is useful. So the answer to my question of "why be skeptical of this product?" is basically:

Other "revolutionary products" have let us down before, rubber o-rings (no matter if "specially formulated") are expected to break down in time.. Althought this product might be "the one" that surprises us 50 years from now by being great still, we won't be sure about that until then. therefore, until this product outlasts traditional copper/solder methods, aim to use it for temporary and easy-to-get-to areas where a leak wouldn't be the end of the world if found quickly enough (i.e. unfinished basement branch shut off).

Do I sum it up about right?

(edit: and if so, all those certifications are fairly worthless aren't they?)

 

[jetrep]

I'm of the opinion that some are giving too much value to the warranty. This assumes the company will still be around in 25 years and it assumes they won't come up with some BS reason(s) to deny your claim. I haven't read the fine print but I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of loopholes. My carpet has a big fancy warranty. It is void if the carpet isn't professionally cleaned every six months!

 

[59 wagon man]

anyone remember polybutylene pipe and the nitrale fittings. little grey plastic fittings were supposed to be great. i believe the class action settlement was around $800,000,000. plenty of money to fix your house with right? ever try collecting, the requirements are so restrictive most people don't qualify. i service complexes with them and can usually tell by the location of the leak when they call what i need to make the repair.
there is no perfect product in the plumbing world that will work 100% of the time in 100% of the applications

 

[mx757]

I normally solder joints on, but they are great in those instances when you can't get the water to stop dripping enough to solder.
Also for spots where you don't have enough room to solder.

trick to stop water long enough to solder fitting is to pack it with bread. i'll block water long enough to solder then disolve on its own in water

 

[Frank The Plumber]

We have an expanding tool that we fit into full port ball valves, you tighten the tool and it holds the water 100%, you solder on your valve and slip it off, the tool kit is about $80 for the small common sizes. Typically the new water saver faucets, especially shower and tub valves and kitchen faucets with sprayer features Anti scald, and integral check valves will have a hard time passing bread through them. You may end up creating a lot of extra work in some cases. In an absolute emergency maybe the bread but you could have a head ache later.

 

[cag310]

Ya just gotta ask yourselves, why would plumbers like a design that removes the need for plumbers...

Just sayin.

HAHAHA

 

[Torque1st]

This type of fitting has been around for more than 30 years. They hold up well but I don't consider them to be a "50 year" product. Brass holds up well in a water system but over time dezincification (that is the technical term for having the Zinc removed from an alloy) will turn it into a sponge. Any movement in the pipe will probably cause more rapid failure in the O-ring sealed fittings. Corrosion over time will also cause leaks. Care must be taken to dress the tubing properly before the fitting is made. Just cutting the tubing off and pushing it into the fitting will result in early failure.

They work well for when their use will avoid expensive repairs with other materials. I would not hesitate to use one in an inaccessible position knowing that at a later time remodeling will allow the fitting to be changed out and repaired properly.

Now as far as getting a pipe up into those joists, -just cut a slot in the joist and glue the piece you cut out back in with some liquid nails.
-JK

 

[GM Platter]

Any reports on the sharkbite fittings being the cause for black spots in hot water? I installed a new hot water heater a couple months back, and am thinking the black spots are deteriorating rubber. I wasnt experiencing these before with the old heater. I'm thinking the new supply lines might be the issue. The one's I got from Home Depot have sharkbite connectors.

If not, any other clue as to what might cause this?

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Wrong anode? Could be bits of that, or iron. Dip tube could be deteriorating? I think if the o rings on the shark bites were corroding you would not get much debris before they failed. Could be that they disturbed the existing piping, could be the residue of a reaction between existing iron pipe installation and new product. Iron deposits from within a pipe can have a black appearance, not always just rusty.

 

[GM Platter]

It's a new water heater, and I've got copper water lines. It may not be the fittings, but does that flex hose have black rubber lining?

 

[must8657]

There are any number of plumbing piping products out there that had all the right labeling but caused nightmares after a few years. Massive product failures, major liability lawsuits, ruined houses, disrupted lives, etc.

Trusting the labeling as you propose is something no wise plumber will EVER do. PERIOD!

I am not busting on you. Just saying there are reasons wise plumbers are skeptical and it has nothing to do with protecting their work.

Can you give some examples? i am not doubting you, i would just like to read up on them to see if there were any differences to ratings compared to the sharkbites.

never mind. i read the rest of the posts and found some examples.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Can you give some examples? i am not doubting you, i would just like to read up on them to see if there were any differences to ratings compared to the sharkbites.

The stainless braided lavatory risers I chose not to use in a multi story condo had a label with 3 different translations of the words. Use only in an exposed location. Check fitness of product periodically. Change every ten years. Over tightening will void warranty.

Hmm. Ever wonder how this determination is going to be made as to whether the product was over tightened? When's the last time any of us have periodically checked the fitness of our lavatory or toilet risers. I've got a dollar that says most people don't periodically check the fitness of their own belly.
I can't see using shark bites to install a water heater on a new install, especially if you paid a plumber to do it. If you are a plumber you should be using something a bit more substantial. In an open area, for a plumber, piping is easy, copper, pex, galvanized, what ever it is, for a professional plumber, using these shark bites in an easy to install situation is equating to lazy. I can do a 50 gallon HWH in 1 hour 45 minutes, undress, drain, new flue piping, new gas valve, solid connection in 3/4 L copper tube with dielectrics, negative pressure test the chimney, fire and test and load the old pig on the truck and collect the fee. Granted I'm movin', how much faster and easier do you need to make the process? Home owner, sure use the cheats but hey if you're a pro show it. Shine a little pride on it.

 

[charged355]

Shark Bite works great for me. I would use it again for sure!

 

[slip knot]

my plumber refuses to use the sharkbite fittings. I've used them in an emergency situation and they can save the day. It's easy to explain to the plumber where the repair is needed( at the POS sharkbite fitting) and he never gives me the fitting back either.
Personally I don't think that any product you buy in todays market place is a 20 yr or 50 yr product. I've been in the rentals long enough to kow that everything has a predetermined life cycle. You can get a year out of a $20 faucet or 10yrs out of a $200 dollar faucet. other than the labor your ROI is the same.

The only product that I have seen that I think works out as advertised is the PEX piping systems. I've been impressed with the abuse this stuff can take and still not leak. The first home I pexed was 5 yrs ago and some of the galvinized fittings that were used on the water well have already failed. The Pex had a dog chew on it till the flow stopped to the shower but it didn't leak. How well it holds up long term is yet to be seen

 

[BBQ&Love]

and he never gives me the fitting back either.

Ha! He is probably using them himself for emergency, temp stuff.

Kidding. They are going into his scrap brass bucket. Guaranteed.

 

[rieferman]

Frank, too bad you're not in Philly area, I'd hire you in a heartbeat. I like the pride in your work that you project in your comments. Cheers!

 

[Frank The Plumber]

"L" copper tubing life expectancy 60+ years when properly reamed and acid neutralized
Galvanized steel pipe life expectancy 50 to 60 years proven
XH cast iron pipe Life expectancy 80 plus years proven I have a customer with a system installed in a home in 1922
Service weight cast iron 60 to 80 years proven
Ductile iron water main 100 years
Black gas pipe 100 plus years proven I still find operating gas light lines in homes that pressure test fine, most still have some residual gas, some are still connected.
Vitrified clay pipe VCP 100 plus years, as long as the earth is stable and tree roots do not get into these systems they may last for hundreds of years.
PVC 40 plus years, although this product seems to fail from becoming brittle and degenerating, so it has environmental influences affecting it, some installs may last quite some time. This is for vent systems.
White or clear flexible water risers trouble at 3 years
Stainless jacketed water risers troubles at 7 to 10 years
copper water risers avg 35 years ( cheaper too)
20 gauge tubular p trap 20 years 22 gauge 10 years
pvc p trap avg 20 years
lead water service systems in service at 115 years proven and still in operation, 95% of most cities have a water service feeding their home that is 75 years old some where in the piping system.

This is how I am programmed to think about this:
I have a new part, it's been around for maybe 3 years (in it's current form), it's going to break down, everything does, even us, oxygen is going to affect it, that's the factor, as it breaks down, what is going to be emitted? I don't care about the actual failure, that's repairable, I can fix that. I care about the emission, what is being created during the oxygenation chemical break down portion of the erosion of this product. Where is it installed? Who is drinking that emission? What is the effect going to be upon the consumer of this water? I can not fix the result of that consumption. So I must question, I must test, I must stand vigilant, I must endure, for I know that the least important thing is monetary, the least important thing is feasibility, the least important thing is physical appeal. All that really and ultimately ever should matter in any application or system is the protection and preservation of your good health and the health of your loved ones.

 

[BBQ&Love]

"L" copper tubing life expectancy 60+ years when properly reamed

I moved to North Carolina once. After some time I needed a new reamer so I asked at the supply house. No one ever heard of it. I tried to explain. Like that thing on the Lenox tubing cutter. Place was full of plumbers because they had a free breakfast thing going on. NO ONE reamed their copper. I got code book from truck and showed them. No one knew about it. I am talking 20+ licensed guys.

I was flabbergasted.

BTW, I did a lot of boiler panel piping in copper. Learned a neat trick for reaming. Buy a 1 3/8" step bit and chuck it in a cordless drill. Slicker than snot. It will do up to 1 1/4".

 

[Frank The Plumber]

I have actually seen 2 fairly expensive failures due to a lack of reaming. Both at about the 5 year mark. The lack of reaming is also the thing that causes metal content in the water, it inhibits the proper patina formation. I even ream pvc when I use it for irrigation. Just good practice.

 

[Torque1st]

I have to agree with rieferman. Frank you are all right. Your work ethic and reasons for it are great. Keeping our loved ones and the public safe are why proper plumbing is so important.

 

[BBQ&Love]

I have actually seen 2 fairly expensive failures due to a lack of reaming. Both at about the 5 year mark. The lack of reaming is also the thing that causes metal content in the water, it inhibits the proper patina formation. I even ream pvc when I use it for irrigation. Just good practice.

I did a cut-away of a 3/4" copper 90 and a section of pipe that had major erosion from not being reamed. I still have it somewhere I think.