Sharkbite question

[Stevedore]

I'm planning to install a Liberty water-powered backup sump pump in the (hopefully) near future. I'd like to use Sharkbite fittings since it's a small project & the higher cost of the fittings won't matter much.

I'll be cutting in to a 30-year old 3/4" copper water line for the supply. The pipe is real dark brown from age, & I'm wondering if surface oxidation, corrosion, or whatever will interfere with the sealing of the Sharkbite tee I'll be installing. If need be, I can sweat in a conventional tee, but the Sharkbite would be easier for me as long as it'll seal OK on the old copper. Maybe I should steel-wool the copper?

Am I worrying about nothing? Thanks!

 

[acer66]

Pipe should be clean so yes on the steel wool.

 

[jconnor3]

You will be fine, just clean it with steel wool and use the sharkbite.

 

[garagelogician]

You should always clean up the pipe (steel wool or emery cloth) before making any connection, no matter how old it is. But you should be just fine.

 

[Stevedore]

Thanks to all for the reassurances. I've done a lot of plumbing repairs in my 45 years of homeownership, but Sharkbites will be a new experience for me. I'm also going to use Pex for the run to where the sump is; another new experience. Old dog (71) learning new tricks. I'll be sure to post up pics of all my leaks.

 

[jam022316]

Thanks to all for the reassurances. I've done a lot of plumbing repairs in my 45 years of homeownership, but Sharkbites will be a new experience for me. I'm also going to use Pex for the run to where the sump is; another new experience. Old dog (71) learning new tricks. I'll be sure to post up pics of all my leaks.

Please let me know how you like the new setup. I've been wanting to switch to that so we wouldn't have to rely on power. I'd probably be using sharkbites as well.

 

[rlitman]

Shark bite connections need the same clean bright copper that a sweat or pro-press connection requires. There is no skimping on the cleaning.

I like steel wool to get a clean connection on new pipe cut with a rolling pipe cutter. But I find it to be too much work on old brown pipe. That's where I pull out the emery cloth roll.

With soldered connections, the direction you sand isn't all that important. With a shark bite, the teeth grab better if you keep the sanding grain oriented around the pipe, rather than along it. That however makes it more difficult to get the o-ring inside the sharkbite to slide onto the pipe.

Knowing that, I will offer two suggestions for your best success with sharkbite:

1) Use emery cloth to knock the corner off the edge of the pipe. A little bevel here helps the o-ring climb onto the pipe. Don't even try this with a pipe cut with a saw; the uneven edge, and any external burr will make for a disaster.

2) After cleaning to bright copper, lubricate the end of the pipe with o-ring compatible grease. Just a little bit makes it SO much easier to put together, and greatly reduces the chances of damaging the o-ring.

 

[Stevedore]

Please let me know how you like the new setup. I've been wanting to switch to that so we wouldn't have to rely on power. I'd probably be using sharkbites as well.

Will do. It might be a while; I'm slow! I just ordered the pump, pex pipe & fittings today from Supply House. (Best price I found on the pump, $150) Getting this done isn't a real high priority for me, more like a nice-to-have feature. We've had some heavy rains here in the 6 months we've owned this house, and the sump has been dry as a bone through it all. There was snow on the ground when we moved in, and the sump had some water in it, so I'd guess that snow melt is the big problem as opposed to rainfall. I'll know more this winter.

 

[dreamingmuscle]

They dont need to be as clean as if you soldering em. But make sure theres no burrs to cut the O ring as you push em on. Mark the copper pipe about 3/4 inch up so you have a reference point on how far you push em on. It should make most that 3/4 if not more .

Glen

 

[dreamingmuscle]

Oh and you don't need the little white pipe thing in the fitting on the copper pipe but do need it on the pex. It just a little reforcement for more malleable tubing like pex.

 

[johninct]

I get a lot of pinholes in the copper pipes at my house. I am switching to PEX but when it is necessary to cut an existing copper line, because the copper is pretty thin, I have to be really careful to not crush/ distort the copper pipe. If your existing copper is that thin, I would not use a Shark Bite. Just my opinion.

 

[Boomer343]

I use the Sharkbite install tools and they are worth the money. One is a depth gauge marker and has a cutter in it to deburr and bevel the outer edge of the pipe. The other tool is an inner reamer. I use the tools on copper and pex. Marking the pipe with the depth gauge removes the question of if the pipe is correctly set or not. Especially helpful on awkward installs.

 

[Boomer343]

http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite-Safe-Seal-Depth-and-Pipe-Deburring-Tool-U702A/100638148

I think my internal tool is generic.

 

[jd_1138]

Better get that checked out by the family doc -- might be gangrene. Up to date on the tetanus booster? Every 10 years you need one.

 

[Stevedore]

Sorry to bump my old thread, but I finally finished my backup sump pump installation the other day & thought I'd add an update. (I'm REAL slow when it comes to projects like these)

The Sharkbites worked great. I used the tool that puts a small bevel on the end of the PEX and/or copper, marked the depth on the pipe, and put a bit of silicone grease on the end; each one clicked together nicely.

It was tricky getting the backup pump into the pit with the main pump, since the pit is only 14" in diameter. The float for the main pump barely has room to move up & down, but it seems to work OK.

I attached a pic of the finished setup. The original pump discharge through the wall wasn't very good; crummy corrugated plastic tube connected to the PVC with a rubber coupling & hose clamps that didn't fit very well. I enlarged the hole in the foundation & secured a proper PVC discharge pipe with silicone caulk. I added PVC outside, sloped to drain 6 ft or so away from the house.

The green things in the discharge lines are check valves. In case the outside discharge gets blocked, one pump won't send water back into the pit through the other pump. The blue PEX supply for the backup pump hanging down in space doesn't look the best, so I'll probably eventually run a 2x4 down from the ceiling to secure it.

Thanks to all for your suggestions & comments; they were very helpful!

 

[theoldwizard1]

The blue PEX supply for the backup pump hanging down in space doesn't look the best, so I'll probably eventually run a 2x4 down from the ceiling to secure it.

Yeah, a picky inspector would nick you for that !

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have always wondered why compression fittings never caught on in the US. They seem to be widely used in EU.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Better get that checked out by the family doc -- might be gangrene. Up to date on the tetanus booster? Every 10 years you need one.

I see what you did there...

Tommy

 

[bwringer]

I keep a small assortment of Sharkbites on hand in case I have a leak. Sharkbites work when the pipe is wet, so they're essential in emergencies.

 

[jrkrace]

I've used Sharkbites before as well as soldering pipe and I've heard good and bad about the Sharkbites. Biggest con I've heard is that with hot water, the pipes expand and contract eventually leading the Sharkbites to fail. I know it doesn't apply in this case, but interesting enough...

 

[CJ7VFR]

I keep a small assortment of Sharkbites on hand in case I have a leak. Sharkbites work when the pipe is wet, so they're essential in emergencies.

I do the same, especially with the Sharkbite end caps in 3/8, 1/2 and 3/4 inch sizes.

They are great for being able to just shove onto the end of a pipe to stop a leak so that you can keep the water turned on, or your hot water base board heat going when it's cold.

They are fast, easy to put on and take off, and you can use them over and over again.

Jim

 

[unlvrebel]

I've used Sharkbites before as well as soldering pipe and I've heard good and bad about the Sharkbites. Biggest con I've heard is that with hot water, the pipes expand and contract eventually leading the Sharkbites to fail. I know it doesn't apply in this case, but interesting enough...

I'd be curious to see the data on this claim. Sharkbites are code compliant for in wall use. I'd be very dubious of this type of claim for something approved for in wall (no access) usage...

 

[Firebrick43]

I'd be curious to see the data on this claim. Sharkbites are code compliant for in wall use. I'd be very dubious of this type of claim for something approved for in wall (no access) usage...

Lost of bad products have been code approved. What's your point?

Polybutylene pipe
zurn pex
PVC pipe for pressure applications
Rubber hoses for washing machines
Nearly every faucet with a pull out sprayer
Paper thin plastic drain pipes for under sinks.
Plastic j hooks for hanging DWV pipe.

 

[larry4406]

Slightly off topic, but do you need any sort of back flow protection on the potable water supply to the water powered sump pump?

In my new residential construction we have to install back flow prevention devices on the potable water, sprinkler riser, and even the steam humidifier. We have an expansion tank as well. All on public water.

 

[unlvrebel]

Lost of bad products have been code approved. What's your point?

Polybutylene pipe
zurn pex
PVC pipe for pressure applications
Rubber hoses for washing machines
Nearly every faucet with a pull out sprayer
Paper thin plastic drain pipes for under sinks.
Plastic j hooks for hanging DWV pipe.

My point is where is the data to support the claim of failure... I thought it was an obvious point...

 

[Stevedore]

Slightly off topic, but do you need any sort of back flow protection on the potable water supply to the water powered sump pump?

In my new residential construction we have to install back flow prevention devices on the potable water, sprinkler riser, and even the steam humidifier. We have an expansion tank as well. All on public water.

The backup pump has a built-in backflow preventer of some sort, although the instructions did mention that something more specific might be required by local codes.

 

[Firebrick43]

My point is where is the data to support the claim of failure... I thought it was an obvious point...

The thing that is obvious is that you equate code compliant to durable. Or maybe your just from Missouri

Well you could call the manufacture and ask what the failure rate after ten years. They wouldn't tell you and they probably don't know.

Mr. Handy doesn't call the sharkbite failure hotline and enter his failure data.

Mr. Handy probably doesn't even no why it failed.

Did the previous handy deburr the pipe correctly?

Was the pipe cleaned?

Is there an ozone creating motor or appliances nearby that caused deterioration to the oring.

So most of your "data" is from individuals that have seen or networked with people that have seen failures. Sharkbite a have been in force for 15 years now and many are seeing failures.

Sharkbites are an oring seal(actual a seal on each end so twice the failure points) and orings get hard, brittle, then crack and finally leak. It's just a matter of when. Any meachanic that has delt with older equipment can attest to old brittle and crumbling orings.

 

[unlvrebel]

The thing that is obvious is that you equate code compliant to durable. Or maybe your just from Missouri

Yes, I made the equation. Absent evidence to the contrary, code compliant is the default. Not sure I understand the Missouri reference... Must be some inferiority complex that folks from Indiana have...

Well you could call the manufacture and ask what the failure rate after ten years. They wouldn't tell you and they probably don't know.

Mr. Handy doesn't call the sharkbite failure hotline and enter his failure data.

Mr. Handy probably doesn't even no why it failed.

Did the previous handy deburr the pipe correctly?

Was the pipe cleaned?

All the same can be said for sweated copper... And your point (besides the top of your head...)?

Is there an ozone creating motor or appliances nearby that caused deterioration to the oring.

Mr. Science... I like it...

So most of your "data" is from individuals that have seen or networked with people that have seen failures. Sharkbite a have been in force for 15 years now and many are seeing failures.

Is it 10 years or 15 years? Which is it?

And we can always trust the second hand opinions of your network. As long as they aren't from Missouri...

Sharkbites are an oring seal(actual a seal on each end so twice the failure points) and orings get hard, brittle, then crack and finally leak. It's just a matter of when. Any meachanic that has delt with older equipment can attest to old brittle and crumbling orings.

So this is your gripe... Really?? Literally MILLIONS (dare I say BILLIONS or TRILLIONS) of fittings that channel liquid rely on rubber o-rings are used around the globe - from water to fuel and everything in between. These have proven to last DECADES.

OK. So you have no data. Just conjecture. Thanks for the confirmation.

Based on your logic, we should through out copper too. It can develop pin holes through no human fault... Let's through out CPVC also. The glue can dry and crack. PEX is unproven over the long term. We shouldn't rely on it then.

I suspect that your potable water is managed with galvanized pipe and pipe dope. At least it will never leak!

 

[evildky]

Sharkbites seal by way of a captured O ring. I don't trust an O ring seal to hold forever, do you?

 

[rlitman]

Sharkbites seal by way of a captured O ring. I don't trust an O ring seal to hold forever, do you?

Hey, an o-ring was good enough for the Space Shuttle solid rocket boosters. . .

 

[Firebrick43]

yes, i made the equation. Absent evidence to the contrary, code compliant is the default. Not sure i understand the missouri reference... Must be some inferiority complex that folks from indiana have...

missouri's state moto is the "show me" state. Sorry for assuming this was common knowledge

all the same can be said for sweated copper... And your point (besides the top of your head...)?

burrs don't knick copper fittings and if you don't clean them properly before soldering you will not get a good joint that will leak immediately at commissioning most of the time




is it 10 years or 15 years? Which is it?

i thought that by asking for data you understood failure rates. For things such as fittings, many companies use a mean failure rate per 10 years. Other things such as engines may use failure rates per so many hours.

15 years is the length of time that "i" personally recall sharkbites being on the common market

and we can always trust the second hand opinions of your network. As long as they aren't from missouri...

i have 20 years experience as a mechanic, and 15 is for the largest engine manufacture in the world. I know a thing or two about oring failure. 20 years is the designed lifespan of o rings and rate drastically increase. Even the most durable of equipment will typically of been rebuilt by this point. In our factory there was a section installed in 97. Every week we are replacing filters bowls and parker pushlocks(similar to sharkbites for urethane tubing)



so this is your gripe... Really?? Literally millions (dare i say billions or trillions) of fittings that channel liquid rely on rubber o-rings are used around the globe - from water to fuel and everything in between. These have proven to last decades.



20 years is not that long in the life of a house. It should be criminal (imho) to place a product that has that life span inside a wall where upon failure it can do thousands of worth of damage just because someone is to lazy.

ok. So you have no data. Just conjecture. Thanks for the confirmation.
i have no data of sharkbites because the company wont release it nor has anyone compiled it. That doesn't make it so. But there is plenty of data that is available on orings. Is parker a trusted provider of information?
https://www.parker.com/literature/o-ring%20division%20literature/ord%205700%20parker_o-ring_handbook.pdf see section 2.6 ozone listed there to that you found so humorous

can list many other references as well but a simple google search of "o ring failures will give you the same results



based on your logic, we should through out copper too. It can develop pin holes through no human fault...

yes, if exposed to acid water in thinner thicknesses i have only personally seen it several times and always with m weight copper. L and k this is a non issue unless you have very acidic water. Many jurisdiction only allow m weight for closed loop heating for this reason, but unfortunately other jurisdiction don't have this rule



let's through out cpvc also. The glue can dry and crack.
yes we should, see post 23. First pvc is not glued, it is solvent welded. Second it does not dry out it work hardens and becomes brittle. Works great for dwv applications however



pex is unproven over the long term. We shouldn't rely on it then.
60 years is unproven? Pex a/wirsbro fittings are very proven (propex) pex b not as much and the crimp fittings are more restrictive and really on the person crimping to ensure a proper crimp with can be assured with a go/no go gage. However this step is omitted frequently.. But also in post 23 i listed zurn pex, do to substandard fittings billions of dollars have been caused, code approved however



i suspect that your potable water is managed with galvanized pipe and pipe dope. At least it will never leak!

really reaching hard? All l weight copper and propex . There are stand pipes of galvanized pipe on my frost proof hydrants in the pastures.

aaaa

 

[redneckcharlie]

Bs. Post up something that can be verified for your failure claims. Are you even a pro? No need to answer that, you already did. We’ve literally used thousands of these fittings over the years and have not had one failure. The only failure I can personally verify was an exposed fitting to minus twenty. As for the nonsense on orings, you realize shut off valves utilize the same type of material for the seals. There are literally millions of those still in use that are decades old. Copper has its issues as well. Does it make it a bad choice? It does not. Pex is a great product, it has its flaws as well. Comparing a fitting for domestic supplied water to machinery is laughable. There’s some great knowledge on this forum at times, and unfortunately the flipside is true to.

The thing that is obvious is that you equate code compliant to durable. Or maybe your just from Missouri

Well you could call the manufacture and ask what the failure rate after ten years. They wouldn't tell you and they probably don't know.

Mr. Handy doesn't call the sharkbite failure hotline and enter his failure data.

Mr. Handy probably doesn't even no why it failed.

Did the previous handy deburr the pipe correctly?

Was the pipe cleaned?

Is there an ozone creating motor or appliances nearby that caused deterioration to the oring.

So most of your "data" is from individuals that have seen or networked with people that have seen failures. Sharkbite a have been in force for 15 years now and many are seeing failures.

Sharkbites are an oring seal(actual a seal on each end so twice the failure points) and orings get hard, brittle, then crack and finally leak. It's just a matter of when. Any meachanic that has delt with older equipment can attest to old brittle and crumbling orings.

 

[Firebrick43]

Did you read post 31? Did you read the Parker section on static seals (orings)?

Do you have verifiable proof you have installed thousands over the years, and what's years? 2 or 3 or 10. It for sure isn't over 15?
Why have you installed thousands? Can't solder?

Yes, some shutoff valves use orings, and guess what, I replace the oring in them to, often in the 15 -20 year range. Big difference with a shutoff valve Chuck, you don't enclose them in the wall! At least for your customers sake you don't.

Your pex and copper comments were also commented on in post 31 which apparently slipped by.

As for your comment that "Comparing domestic supplied water to machinery is laughable"
Why? In a modern machine shop domestic supplied water is common. Have somewhere over 2 million gallons of water base coolant, miles of make up water lines and valvevs. RO systems, softeners, pumps, and filters.

Also have miles of air lines. Air is a fluid to.

I will concede that in an industrial enviroment many time wear can be accelerated but there are many places that are well protected, not operated on a daily or even weekly basis, and the place is climate controlled.