Shed as Workshop

[Ferrino]

We recently moved home, with a shift from a 2-car garage to a 1-car garage, and I'm trying to figure out how to claim some workshop and storage space. There is no potential to expand the 1-car garage, however we do now have a decently sized back yard where I would like to build a shed (something like a TuffShed, since I have no time to construct my own). I would like to run an air compressor, blast cabinet, mini-lathe, mini-mill etc. It would be great to weld and grind in there too.

I believe that we are only allowed a max. of 120 sq. ft. without a permit. That would be too small for me and something in the region of 12'x20' would be a more efficient use of our space. I spoke to TuffShed and they said that something of that size would require a concrete slab to prevent buckling. I don't have a problem with that, since if I'm going to pull a permit, I may as well have a solid floor.

Questions:

- How much would you expect to pay a contractor to prep and pour for a 12x20 slab?
- Do you think a 12x20 shed would add considerably to property taxes if/when the property is re-appraised due to the permit?
- If you could avoid permits by having two 10x12 sheds, would you rather go down that route?

Thanks.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Check with your local ordinances - going with two 10x12 sheds may or may not work to dodge a permit may or may not work, and then you can find out just how much a permit costs. In some areas they can be expensive but in others they're pretty cheap. (it would help to know what state, country or planet you live on to try to answer the other questions )

 

[mike93lx]

A shed will add exactly zero value, but your jurisdiction might tax it regardless. Best to ask the assessor's office.

 

[Ferrino]

(it would help to know what state, country or planet you live on to try to answer the other questions )

Sorry, I thought I already had it on my profile - now added!

 

[Fishingfoolemjak]

If the savings are minimal by going with the two smaller sheds, then I would prefer the one larger unit. However, with the two smaller ones you could set one up for wood working and one up for metal working....

 

[jabin]

In our county we are limited on the number of out buildings, but I'm within City limits.

 

[gorilla]

Have you thought of a shipping container? No site work required and built better than a tuffshed. Just bought a 20' cost $2700.00 you could probably get a better deal where you live.

 

[Ferrino]

Thanks for the suggestion of the container, but I'm looking for something that will match our home as much as possible. I'm thinking of something along the lines of this gable shed (the one pictured is 14x24):

 

[dbabicky]

12x20 slab complete here would be about $1000.00. (Just the completed slab with prepwork included) Since you're in Commiefornia, expect 2-3 times that.

 

[Ferrino]

A shed will add exactly zero value, but your jurisdiction might tax it regardless. Best to ask the assessor's office.

I'm pretty sure that anything permitted will attract a new, higher property tax. I don't know if the city can tell me roughly how much it will cost in additional taxes - I'm still waiting for a chance to talk to them.

Right now I'm leaning towards two separate 10x12s: one as a storage shed and the other as a small, clean workshop. I'm pretty sure we are allowed multiple 10x12s: I still need to find out how far they need to be spaced from each other.

In terms of foundation, I'm leaning towards a wooden, non-permanent frame, just in case it has to be moved at some stage. To make the wooden floor as rigid as possible, is it possible to add more joists?

 

[unlvrebel]

When you apply for the permit you will be required to identify a value. This value will most likely be used for assessment purposes. My recollection of CA is that Prop 13 limited property taxes to 1% of the transfer value for homesteaded properties. Your transfer value will be the value of the shed. Let's assume a $5,000 project (don't know). 1% of that would be an additional $50 per year. Permit the shed you want.

 

[Falcon67]

A shed will add exactly zero value, but your jurisdiction might tax it regardless. Best to ask the assessor's office.

Not if it's a permanent structure - small portable will have no impact in Texas, slab and frame will. Our 12x16 on skids doesn't show up on the tax rolls, the 24x40 showed up at another $25,000 assessed value.

 

[lakelandcat]

Two years ago I had a 16x20, 12" footer with a 4-6" pad. Around it was a 8x20 for a screened in patio, and a 34x10 for a added patio. They poured 21 yards with more than half with pea gravel. With arch. fees, exterminator, contractor, labor and permits it all came to $5100. I'm sure the price of cement has gone up.

 

[mike93lx]

Not if it's a permanent structure - small portable will have no impact in Texas, slab and frame will. Our 12x16 on skids doesn't show up on the tax rolls, the 24x40 showed up at another $25,000 assessed value.

Assessments and resale are different

 

[Ferrino]

When you apply for the permit you will be required to identify a value. This value will most likely be used for assessment purposes. My recollection of CA is that Prop 13 limited property taxes to 1% of the transfer value for homesteaded properties. Your transfer value will be the value of the shed. Let's assume a $5,000 project (don't know). 1% of that would be an additional $50 per year. Permit the shed you want.

Thanks for that info - yes, I believe we are at 1% on the main building, so $50/yr in extra taxes on a single 10x20 shed would be about right and totally worth it to me. I have already identified a few older neighbors who might cause problems down the road, so I want to do it by the books if I do a single larger shed.

 

[6768rogues]

In NY they are taxes whether they have a concrete floor or not. However, small sheds do not require a permit and if there is no permit, they do not have notice that something is being added.
Around here the Amish and Mennonite communities build and deliver top notch sheds for reasonable prices.

 

[BukitCase]

"older neighbors who might cause problems down the road"

I started to play a song for my MIL that I'd written, had the volume down low already - the second I hit "play", she SCREAMED "turn it down"...

Did a little research after that, apparently it's fairly common for older people(not me, I'm only 72 ) - to be hyper-sensitive to sound - All leading up to my suggestion...

If possible, go a couple feet larger in each dimension than you think you'll need, use a complete fiberglass insulation fill (ceiling too) then add resilient channel to the inside of frames, and put a layer of 5/8 sheet rock with a layer of 3/4" mdf or osb over that, laminated with Green Glue (google it) - doing that would NOT be enough to contain practice sessions with your death metal band, but most small shop noises are higher in frequency than bass and kick drum.

That construction, if caulked well, WILL reduce the vast majority of sounds that might be "music to OUR ears" but "neighbor from hell" to hearing sensitive/cranky oldsters - Something to think about BEFORE you find out the hard way... Steve

 

[Ferrino]

"older neighbors who might cause problems down the road"

I started to play a song for my MIL that I'd written, had the volume down low already - the second I hit "play", she SCREAMED "turn it down"...

Did a little research after that, apparently it's fairly common for older people(not me, I'm only 72 ) - to be hyper-sensitive to sound - All leading up to my suggestion...

If possible, go a couple feet larger in each dimension than you think you'll need, use a complete fiberglass insulation fill (ceiling too) then add resilient channel to the inside of frames, and put a layer of 5/8 sheet rock with a layer of 3/4" mdf or osb over that, laminated with Green Glue (google it) - doing that would NOT be enough to contain practice sessions with your death metal band, but most small shop noises are higher in frequency than bass and kick drum.

That construction, if caulked well, WILL reduce the vast majority of sounds that might be "music to OUR ears" but "neighbor from hell" to hearing sensitive/cranky oldsters - Something to think about BEFORE you find out the hard way... Steve

Thanks for the sound-proofing suggestion! I definitely want to explore that when the shed is built. Getting a detached workspace has been a dream for a while, to get the noise away from the family (largely due to air compressor). But now I move the noise closer to the neighbors! All the more reason to make sure the structure is permitted.

I have an appointment with the city today. I have no idea how involved the permit application for a shed is. My builder wants nothing to do with the permitting process, so I'm going solo with pencil and paper...

 

[unlvrebel]

Thanks for the sound-proofing suggestion! I definitely want to explore that when the shed is built. Getting a detached workspace has been a dream for a while, to get the noise away from the family (largely due to air compressor). But now I move the noise closer to the neighbors! All the more reason to make sure the structure is permitted.

I have an appointment with the city today. I have no idea how involved the permit application for a shed is. My builder wants nothing to do with the permitting process, so I'm going solo with pencil and paper...

So how did it go?

I'd be a bit wary of a builder not wanting anything to do with the permitting process...

On a side note, if the cost or other burdens make the size shed you want for working too expensive, you can look to pour a larger slab and fab up a retractable cover for it. Gives you more working space outdoors for bigger projects.

Good luck!

 

[Ferrino]

So how did it go?

I'd be a bit wary of a builder not wanting anything to do with the permitting process...

It was a good learning experience - I am confident I don't want to deal with the city buildings dept. Ask 3 people the same question and you will get 3 different answers. Not very confidence inspiring!

Anything over 120 sq. ft. needs a concrete foundation and a full set of plans, including framing details etc. I just don't have the time or experience to do that. I don't think it's unusual for a budget-level shed builder to not want to get involved with permitting - they'd have to charge for time to develop drawings, do revisions, meet inspector etc. This builder has excellent reviews on Yelp and he typically builds 120 sq. ft. sheds for people in the city who don't want to deal with permits.

I am going with the following setup: one 8'x15' shed and one 10'x12' shed. I am planning to arrange them in a sort of "L" configuration, with a small 5'x15' deck connecting them and maybe a pergola above that. He is going to place an additional skid and uses floor joists on a 12" center plus 3/4" flooring. I think that will be plenty firm for my needs, without going to a slab.

What do you think of the layout?

 

[Arnbarn]

You might want to check with the city. On the sly of course.
Last time I talked to an inspector he said anything under 200 sq ft does not need a permit.
Maybe adding electrical triggers 120?
I'm in PB

 

[Ferrino]

You might want to check with the city. On the sly of course.
Last time I talked to an inspector he said anything under 200 sq ft does not need a permit.
Maybe adding electrical triggers 120?
I'm in PB

It's definitely 120 sq. ft.

§129.0203 Exemptions from a Building Permit
(a) A Building Permit is not required for the following structures and activities,
except when the development would involve alterations, repairs, or
improvements to a historical resource as described in Section 143.0220, or
when development on a premises containing environmentally sensitive lands
requires a development permit in accordance with Section 143.0110:
(1) One-story detached accessory buildings used as tool and storage sheds,
playhouses, or similar uses provided the projected roof area is 120
square feet or less and the structure will not be utilized for any
separately regulated use s

 

[Ferrino]

And here's the image of my proposed layout of the two sheds:

 

[junkyardwarrior]

I built/repaired/bought/sold 102 riding lawn mowers in winter 2013/2014, in a 12x16 with a loft, and had enough room to comfortably do work to 2 at a time usually. It can be done in a small shed if that's what you're after. The loft helps to keep spare parts. Mine sits on a concrete slab that was already there when I moved in. Cost $2300 for the shed, complete, all I had to do was build a work bench and drill a hole in one of the loft joists, and build a ladder to get up there.

I don't live in the city....THANK GOODNESS! Spent the first 39 years of my life inside the city limits, 14 of them BARELY inside (fence in the back yard was the city limit), and know all too well the garbage that towns/cities make you go through to do about anything. And POA/HOA? Done with that stuff too. If this place gets annexed, I'm moving. I will not live inside the limits again.

That little shed I had put up was paid for by lawn mower repairs. I outgrew it obviously, and in Aug 2014 I had a 30x40 put up on the other side of the property and now use the shed to store my lawn & grounds care equipment, and a 2.3L ford engine, and all the removed parts from my 1992 Mustang GT while it's getting a facelift. The 30x40 was also paid for by lawn mower repair/build/resale.

When I had the 30x40 built, I had the PoCo run juice from the pole/transformer to the meter box that I installed. I already had the shop wired and ready to go, and actually ran the entire shop run off of a big power inverter run off of a bank of 12v car batteries. Had electrician test/check everything and all was good. Poco comes out, runs the wire and then stops-would not stab the meter, saying I needed to pull a permit. Bull. I didn't need it-and I called the local city's office to verify. Of course this was all on a Friday before a 3 day holiday weekend, so I had to run the shop off of the battery bank for 2 more days (I don't work on Sunday if I can help it) anxiously waiting to call the poco to give them a piece of my mind, which I did first thing Tuesday morning. I have never been so mad in my life after arguing with someone 2 states away who had no idea who I was and why I was upset. Then it takes them a better part of a day to send a truck out to stab a meter. Crazy dealing with utility companies.

Check with your insurance company and the permit office to see if you are required for any certain size building, or if your insurance rate will go up. Out here my insurance did not change as it was considered a non-permanent structure. I've seen places way out in the sticks (further out than I am) where they got around the square footage by building a sorta pyramid where the walls taper inward, which made the roof sq footage under the limit.

 

[James-W]

When I built my 24X36 garage my property assessed value went up less than $300. The city assessment for a garage is different than it is for a house.

 

[unlvrebel]

It was a good learning experience - I am confident I don't want to deal with the city buildings dept. Ask 3 people the same question and you will get 3 different answers. Not very confidence inspiring!

Anything over 120 sq. ft. needs a concrete foundation and a full set of plans, including framing details etc. I just don't have the time or experience to do that. I don't think it's unusual for a budget-level shed builder to not want to get involved with permitting - they'd have to charge for time to develop drawings, do revisions, meet inspector etc. This builder has excellent reviews on Yelp and he typically builds 120 sq. ft. sheds for people in the city who don't want to deal with permits.

I am going with the following setup: one 8'x15' shed and one 10'x12' shed. I am planning to arrange them in a sort of "L" configuration, with a small 5'x15' deck connecting them and maybe a pergola above that. He is going to place an additional skid and uses floor joists on a 12" center plus 3/4" flooring. I think that will be plenty firm for my needs, without going to a slab.

What do you think of the layout?

I like the layout. Should prove very useful. Good luck!