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Sheetrock ceiling a bad idea in this case?

thickhead

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Really considering having sheetrock installed for my detached garage ceiling. Don't know if this is a bad idea or not, but only concerned about moisture build up or problems. Walls are already insulated and plywood covered and the two bay doors are insulated steel type.

-Everything is 16" o.c. for the ceiling framing and I plan use craft faced fiberglass insulation.
-Attic space above most of the ceiling, but some of the sheetrock would be hung directly on the rafters.
-It will only be heated and cooled sometimes with electric heat/AC and we have lots of temperature swings here in CT.

The question is........Should I use a plastic vapor barrier between the sheetrock and insulation? Is moisture/condensation going to be a problem?
 
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95vette

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Hello, You shouldn't use kraft faced insulation and plastic together, one or the other but not both, and you probably already know this the paper goes to the inside of the building or the warm side. Jim
 

pattenp

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Be sure to leave an air gap between the batt insulation and the roof sheathing where there's no attic space. You need to maintain air flow from soffit vents up to top vent(s), that is if you have vents.
 

maxpower_hd

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Be sure to leave an air gap between the batt insulation and the roof sheathing where there's no attic space. You need to maintain air flow from soffit vents up to top vent(s), that is if you have vents.

They sell plastic vents for this so air will flow from the soffit to the roof vent in the peak.
 

maxpower_hd

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Also, you should not build up so much humidity inside that the sheet rock would get wet. A vapor barrier, whether it is the paper/tar barrier on the faced insulation or plastic for non-faced, then sheet rock should not be an issue. I would prime and paint it with a good quality paint.

My garage is heated but not always. I have had no issues with moisture at all here in Massachusetts.
 

Leaflessshadetree

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I would use green board (moisture resistant) sheet rock. Since the walls are plywood you could also consider using plywood. The paper on craft faced insulation is the moisture barrier, no reason to have plastic.
 
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thickhead

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Thanks for the info all. Never crossed my mind that the paper would be the barrier.

I don't think I want to use plywood Leafless. The greenboard might be a good idea though.

Also, thanks maxpower for your experience in MA, pretty much the same situation.
 
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xtremek

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I'm in the same boat as you. I've talked it over with several different people. THey all say it's a bad idea. The issue isn't with moisture build up(I'll run my heater long enough for everything to dry off/out), but with temp induced expansion and contraction. They all tell me the joints and screw heads will crack and pop, no matter what I do. If you're good with the cracks, go for it. I plan to.
 

Gerald O

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No, do not use greenboard for ceilings. It will sag badly at 16" centers because it is not as stiff as standard drywall, and there is no good reason to use it. It is actually prohibited by building code for bathroom ceilings because of this.
 
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77Mini

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No, do not use greenboard for ceilings. It will sag badly at 16" centers because it is not as stiff as standard drywall, and there is no good reason to use it. It is actually prohibited by building code for bathroom ceilings because of this.

I didn't know that. Interesting.
 

Shiftless

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I didn't know that. Interesting.

Because of the steamy open shower floor plan for our master bathroom remodel, the city said no to Sheetrock. I used quarter inch Hardie board for the walls and ceiling, skim coated and painted it. Because of the weight, I was required to have ceiling joists no more than 12 inches O.C. That required some extra framing of course.
Has held up great for 8 years... maybe Sheetrock would have worked too. But I had to pass the permitting process so what are you going to do?
 
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tcianci

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Well, there you have it. A whole bunch of information, some of it diametrically opposed, yet everyone is an expert. And it's all true 'cause it's online. Oddly, the other thing you can find online is the web site for the manufacturers of the products you want to use! They will have application information to ensure a successful outcome for your project.

Now if you're interested, read on for a small science lesson... As posted, you need to maintain an air space between any insulation you apply to the backside of the roof sheathing if you're using a typical soffit/ridge vent system. The air flow between the insulation and the roof sheathing keeps the back side of the sheathing cold, helping to eliminate ice dams.

And as posted, you don't want to use a kraft faced insulation along with a polyethylene vapor barrier. It's one or the other, not both. The current thinking is that you would want to apply the finish material (drywall) directly to your ceiling joists. Used to be we would always apply 1x3 strapping to the underside if the ceiling joists and then apply the drywall. The current thinking (and code in some areas) is that the voids between the insulation and the drywall created by the strapping contribute to "air washing" across the face of the insulation and is to be avoided.

Now to the moisture issue. Once your building is complete and dried in, you will be dealing with condensation ANYWHERE there's a surface in the building who's temperature drops below the dew point. And the dew point is determined by the amount of moisture in the air be it from atmospheric conditions or additional moisture added to the air from evaporation of rain, snowmelt, cooking, heavy breathing or what have you. Now, a little more science...heat rises, always has, always will. Plainly put, the ceiling of your garage is, scientifically speaking, the last place in the entire structure where you will get condensation because it's the warmest surface in the place.

As far as cracking and nail pops, they have NOTHING to do with drywall but everything to do with movement of the structure. That's why having the building sufficiently dried in before boarding is important. Even more so if you skip the strapping on the underside of the ceiling joists. Drywall and tape and mud, blueboard with a veneer plaster or a full plaster job over wire lath all do just ducky in the cold and through wide temperature swings. I'm in Massachusetts and we routinely blue board and plaster the ceilings of exterior porches, just as long as they're constructed not to take direct water, they do just fine.

Lastly, one of the best vapor barriers is a couple of coats of paint. And the good thing is the paint is on the inside of the drywall which will reduce the vapor permeability of the finish and give even more moisture protection.
 

xtremek

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As far as cracking and nail pops, they have NOTHING to do with drywall but everything to do with movement of the structure. That's why having the building sufficiently dried in before boarding is important. Even more so if you skip the strapping on the underside of the ceiling joists. Drywall and tape and mud, blueboard with a veneer plaster or a full plaster job over wire lath all do just ducky in the cold and through wide temperature swings. I'm in Massachusetts and we routinely blue board and plaster the ceilings of exterior porches, just as long as they're constructed not to take direct water, they do just fine.

Just so I'm sure I understand you right, my building which has been standing for at least 10 years will take the drywall and finishing without cracking? I don't heat it constantly, only when I'm in it. When I got home tonight it was 8*F and after an hour, the temp inside the barn was warm enough for a t-shirt. I know nothing about the subject, but 3 or 4 people told me taping would crack. I'm good to go? I don't plan on doing the ceiling, just the walls. Thanks for the information.
 

csp

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It's the fluctuation in temperatures from summer expansion to winter contraction. It has nothing to do with how long your building has been standing or how long you heat it.

In fact, if you did keep it at a fairly constant temperature, cracking at the joints would be no more of an issue than it is inside the living space of your home.

Mine has small cracks in two of at least 20 joints in my ceiling. I can live with that.
 

Kevin54

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Use lightweight drywall for the ceilings. You will get mixed feelings on drywall though. Personally, I like it and have drywall on all of my garage ceilings. If the joints are taped and mudded correctly, and then painted, you shouldn't have any problems. My main garage has been up since '99, the house garage since '88, and my garage addition since '15. No problems.

And the lightweight drywall is supposedly sag resistant, but it still has to be laid the correct way on the rafters.
 
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thickhead

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Very glad I started this thread. A wealth of information.
Thanks for the detailed post tcianci.

Like the idea of the light weight drywall from what I've read so far.
 

burnedzr2

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I collected enough sheetrock to do a 36 x 42 ceiling from jobs I work at over a 6 month period. A mixture of lightweight, standard, firecode all 1/2. my ceiling is framed 24oc . I insulated and put all this up, I put blocking on the seams to give me extra screwing and to help with sagging, it has been up for 6 years and no cracking or nail pops or any trouble at all. My walls are plywood also. So just put it up and don't worry.
 

xtremek

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In fact, if you did keep it at a fairly constant temperature, cracking at the joints would be no more of an issue than it is inside the living space of your home.

That's my question. I don't keep it at a fairly constant temp. I only heat it when I'm in it. The temp in the barn was 8*F and the torpedo brought it up to about 72*F, I'm guessing, in about an hour. I kept it going for about 2 1/2hrs, so everything dried off. So, will the seams crack?

Thanks for starting this thread, Thickhead. When you do your drywall, it would be cool if you posted pics.
 
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thickhead

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I'm in the same situation xtremek....don't plan to heat it unless I use it and the big temperature swings concern me too.
 
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maxpower_hd

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tcianci summed it up better than I did. I have 5/8 on my ceiling and one wall of the garage and 1/2 on the rest of the walls. I taped and jointed it with the bagged drywall mix you mix in a bucket. I think it was easy sand 45 if I remember. It has been about 11 years now. I don't always heat it. In fact it is about 40 in there right now. I worked in it the day before yesterday and it was 60 in there. It gets to 90+ in there in the summer and humid. I don't use AC unless I have to because I don't want to pay the electric bill for it. I have NO cracks whatsoever in the garage. When I used AC the first year during a heatwave I created my own condensation when I opened the garage door. Everything inside was about 68 degrees and it was 98 and humid outside. Instant moisture on everything metal. You could see the gas level in my motorcycle. Another reason I don't use it. In any event, the point is I have no cracks and the sheetrock isn't sagging or showing any other negative signs after 11 years or so. I would not worry about it as long as you do it correctly as the manufacturer, tcianci and others here have mentioned. If you don't do a good job taping and jointing and you get a crack here and there it isn't the end of the world either. It's a garage.
 

tcianci

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Just board and tape the thing for cryin' out loud. I can assure you that no Garage Journal police will come to your house and sentence you to eternal public ridicule if you have a crack in your ceiling.

Many people on this forum come here looking to do their project "right the first time" and never have to visit it again. Then they get advice that's all over the map as to how to so it. The fact is that there are accepted best practices for building things and even those yield in less than stellar results sometimes. I did mention referring to the manufacturers' web sites for the proper application of their product. It's still your best bet for the straight skinny on how to do stuff.
 

xtremek

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Just board and tape the thing for cryin' out loud.

Ok, ok, we get it. :shocking::lol: Seriously though, I appreciate your advice. I just wanted to be clear on the details. That task is now back on the "To-Do" List. As a unranked DYIer, I don't want to put the effort into something that has no chance of success and ends up looking like a huge pile of poo. I'm good with a small plie of poo though.:lol_hitti
 

bobss396

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When I do mine, I'll consider using thin plywood, possibly sanded on one side. I'll have to price it out. I'm not that concerned with appearance and can lay a piece of screen stock over the seams so it looks neater. Pre-paint the plywood as well.
 

myredracer

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Sounds like you have a transition/jog from installing drywall to the u/s of trusses to the u/s of rafters. If installing a poly vapor retarder/air barrier, pay attention to making it as continuous and tight as possible. Sometimes can be a PITA as you have to tuck tape around framing members and/or use acoustic sealant.

Unless the ceiling needs a fire rating or code says otherwise, I can't see any reason not to use regular 1/2 drywall on 16" centers. The bottom chord of trusses will move up and down from season - season even with heat/AC (more in humid areas) and for a large single plane of drywall (no interior walls) there should be no reason to worry about cracks in joints.

Haven't seen paper faced fiberglass in decades. It's still around?

Another expert here... :thumbup:
 
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Kevin54

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One thing my drywall guy uses and recommends is paper tape instead of the self sticking mesh tape. I know that I haven't had any problems. It takes him a good week or so to properly do a room. He puts down a thin layer of joint compound....just enough to hold the tape, then goes home. The next day, he uses the 6" knife again and adds a little more mud over the tape. Day three he uses a 9" knife and lays down yet another layer of mud. He then gives it a quick sand on the fourth day and use a 12" knife to lay down another thin coat. Day five, he sands again and looks for the low spots. He lays down a coat of topping this time as it is finer and will cover in any pits. Day 6 is final sand.

Also when doing the corners, he uses paper tape. He puts down a thin coat of compound to embed the tape. Just enough to hold it. He uses a 6" knife to do the corners, but each day, he only does one side of the corner. Reason being is that a drywall corner knife is a pain in the *** and you can't get the compound on evenly. And by doing only one side of the corner at a time, you aren't digging your knife into the opposite side of the same corner.

By the time he is done, he has hardly done any sanding at all really. The key is patience, and not to get in a rush to get it done. When he done my addition, I bet he didn't have 6 hours sanding time in the complete area, and barely had any dust as he used a shop vac on a pole sander.
 

tcianci

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One thing my drywall guy uses and recommends is paper tape instead of the self sticking mesh tape. I know that I haven't had any problems. It takes him a good week or so to properly do a room. He puts down a thin layer of joint compound....just enough to hold the tape, then goes home. The next day, he uses the 6" knife again and adds a little more mud over the tape. Day three he uses a 9" knife and lays down yet another layer of mud. He then gives it a quick sand on the fourth day and use a 12" knife to lay down another thin coat. Day five, he sands again and looks for the low spots. He lays down a coat of topping this time as it is finer and will cover in any pits. Day 6 is final sand.

Also when doing the corners, he uses paper tape. He puts down a thin coat of compound to embed the tape. Just enough to hold it. He uses a 6" knife to do the corners, but each day, he only does one side of the corner. Reason being is that a drywall corner knife is a pain in the *** and you can't get the compound on evenly. And by doing only one side of the corner at a time, you aren't digging your knife into the opposite side of the same corner.

By the time he is done, he has hardly done any sanding at all really. The key is patience, and not to get in a rush to get it done. When he done my addition, I bet he didn't have 6 hours sanding time in the complete area, and barely had any dust as he used a shop vac on a pole sander.

/\ /\ /\This is good info
 

nutsnbolts

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I am a journeyman drywall finisher, so I think I could be of help here. I spent most of my time working in western Washington, but also spent a few years working in eastern Washington, which has wider temperature swings. I will tell you what works for me.

I would always use 1/2" drywall in a residential application. The 5/8" drywall only really offers one significant advantage over 1/2", and that is as a fire retardant. Because commercial buildings are open to the public, there is a higher liability to the business and the builder, so code calls for 25% thicker drywall. 1/2" is lighter, cheaper, and way easier to hang, too.

A lot of people use the yellow fiberglass tape because it is so easy to apply. This is a huge mistake. I would never use fiberglass tape on my own house, or on anyone else's if it was for a permanent build. It was invented for temporary walls in mall storefronts where contractors are required to get a barrier up quickly to eliminate the sound and eyesore of a construction project. It is weak and will not hold up to any tension. It was not designed to.

The next key factor is to use lightweight mud, and not the heavy weight mud that comes in a big bucket. My favorite is Beadex Lite. It is much softer and handles stress better than the heavy mud, and sands WAY easier. Use the yellow (taping mud) box for taping, and the red (all-purpose) for your double and finish coat. You can also use the blue (topping) for double or finish coating; I just always get the all-purpose because it has some glue in it and if you are in the middle of your double coat and discover a spot that you missed while taping, you can use it to tape the wall and then continue on. Topping mud has little to no glue and you cannot tape with it. These muds come in a box, are pre-mixed but quite thick, so you empty it into a 5 gallon bucket and then thin it down gradually with water until you get the consistency you want. Use a drill and beater bar to mix it, and try to keep from banging the beater bar against the sides of the bucket or your mud will be full of little plastic strings :)

Someone suggested using fast-setting (hot) mud; I do not suggest this unless you really know what you are doing. Because it sets off through a chemical reaction rather than evaporation, hot mud has less shrinkage and it is more difficult to judge the proper amount to apply. The result is usually that there is too much mud on the wall, and it is next to impossible to get it flat again. In the field we actually just scrape off the lap marks because sanding is futile. Additionally, there is a certain amount of finish mud required to bury it, which means you either have way too much mud on the wall, or the hot mud burns through and you will see it clearly through the paint. Cleanup is also more labor intensive. The only real advantage it holds is that you can double and finish the project in one day. If your project is anything more than just a few sheets you will run out of time today anyway, so you are better off to use regular lite mud and wait til tomorrow for the next step.

I also suggest using tape-on corner bead instead of bang-on bead. Just another place where you have a small amount of flexibility, where bang-on bead becomes rigidly attached, and is a common place for cracking. What's more, if you accidentally crunch a corner with your wheelbarrow or whatever else might damage it (things happen!) it is a lot easier to remove a stick of tape-on bead and replace it than digging out the nails of the bang-on bead. I suggest Beadex B1W BEADED corner bead. There is another that has no bead on it...I believe it is called B1WNB, and it has to be applied PERFECTLY or it will not come out square.

Other tips...I always start the job out by pre-filling any big gaps with taping mud straight from the box, as it will give you a good, sticky fill upon which to do your tape coat. Keep an eye out for small fractures at seams, especially at the corner of the board. Cut these loose chunks out and pre-fill before taping.

After pre-filling, instinct will suggest that you start taping right away, but the next thing I always do is to fill all the screws with taping mud. While it is true that taping mud uses more water, which results in more shrinkage, the glue in the taping mud is necessary to get a good seal on the cavity. You may find tiny papers sticking up in the screw hole; simply coating it with mud will not eliminate this...we call them "hitchhikers". If it is big, you will want to tear it out with your fingers or cut it out with a razor knife and continue on. If it is small, what you do is coat it with mud, wipe the mud back off, and then heel the paper in with the end of your knife handle. Then re-coat. Oh, and when people coat their screws, often times they leave a dab of mud on them. The correct way is to coat it and then wipe all the mud off, leaving just the screwhead covered.

When hanging your drywall, you want to stagger your **** joints so that you don't have two of them next to each other, creating what is called a "railroad joint". These require a lot of work in order to get them flat.

Another thing that is critical with finishing is using the right tool. So many times inexperienced people think that they will use smaller finishing knives because the wide knife intimidates them. This is backwards thinking. Think of the **** joint as a mountain in the middle of a flat field. You can never really flatten the mountain, but you can lessen the sharpness of its slope by adding a wide ridge to each side. The wider the ridge, the less noticeable the slope. By trying to coat the sides with a 6" knife, your ridge will be half that of the one you create with a 12" knife. A craftsman with a lot of experience who knows what he is doing might be able to pull it off in a jam, but the novice will definitely benefit from the wider knife. I suggest using a 10" knife on the double coat and a 12" knife on the finish coat. If a joint is really wobbly or you need a significant amount of fill, don't hesitate to double the width to make a lesser graduation.

Drywall paper has a different texture than drywall mud, and this difference will usually show through on a lighted wall. If you want a beautiful, consistent texture from wall to wall, simply coat the clean area (called the field) with mud and wipe it back off. The end result will be a wall that has the same chalky texture throughout. Additional work, but if looks are important, then it is well worth it.

When sanding, get a sanding pole and use 120 grit paper. Ideally, 3M makes a plasticized paper (called filmback)for sanding poles that makes for a nice clean sanded finish. Don't expect to get a perfect sand job with just the pole sander. What you want is to get the main sanding done and then finish with a sanding sponge; edges of seams, edges of corner bead, any spot that was awkward to coat will likely have a ridge that needs to be shaved down some. Use a good sponge (again, 3M is the best) and avoid cheap (home brand) sponges from Home Depot or Lowe's. They are not the same. One side is usually medium grit and the other is fine grit. You want to use the fine side for finish sanding. One thing you want to avoid is digging into the other side of the wall when you sand along the inside corner (this is called the angle). To avoid this, use a hacksaw blade to cut a 45* wedge off of one end, thus making it pointed. Now you can sand right into the angle without digging into the opposite wall.

Okay, I see that I have carried on. I hope that this may have helped out. Feel free to ask for clarification. It is way easier to demonstrate in person.
 
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nutsnbolts

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One thing my drywall guy uses and recommends is paper tape instead of the self sticking mesh tape. I know that I haven't had any problems. It takes him a good week or so to properly do a room. He puts down a thin layer of joint compound....just enough to hold the tape, then goes home. The next day, he uses the 6" knife again and adds a little more mud over the tape. Day three he uses a 9" knife and lays down yet another layer of mud. He then gives it a quick sand on the fourth day and use a 12" knife to lay down another thin coat. Day five, he sands again and looks for the low spots. He lays down a coat of topping this time as it is finer and will cover in any pits. Day 6 is final sand.

Also when doing the corners, he uses paper tape. He puts down a thin coat of compound to embed the tape. Just enough to hold it. He uses a 6" knife to do the corners, but each day, he only does one side of the corner. Reason being is that a drywall corner knife is a pain in the *** and you can't get the compound on evenly. And by doing only one side of the corner at a time, you aren't digging your knife into the opposite side of the same corner.

By the time he is done, he has hardly done any sanding at all really. The key is patience, and not to get in a rush to get it done. When he done my addition, I bet he didn't have 6 hours sanding time in the complete area, and barely had any dust as he used a shop vac on a pole sander.

I don't mean any disrespect to your friend, but this sounds like he is doing more work than necessary. To do one room, I would tape and double coat it on day one, finish coat and skim on day two, and sand on day three. There might be an occasional touch up spot in the end, but nothing big enough to require additional sanding.
 
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thickhead

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Update:
Drywall is up.
Primed and painted.
I'll post a couple photos once I get the trim and walls painted.

Thanks again for all the advice and input guys, it looks freaking fantastic! That finished look and brightness is perfect for what I was looking for.
 

RVDan

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It'll be fine, my house has vapour barrier above the ceiling drywall, and it's only heated by electric sometimes.
 

kbs2244

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It is a purely personal opinion,
But I see no reason for drywall in a garage/shop.
It may be smooth and pretty, but it is weak.
It gets dents and gouges in it and it will not support any kind of weight.

If all you want to do is hide the Kraft paper, use 1/4 inch plywood.
If you may want to hangs things in the future use 1/2.
 

DougWil

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Any ceiling of drywall or plywood needs to be painted or sealed to be a vapor barrier.
Warm moist air should not be allowed to pass through the ceiling and walls into the drywall. It makes drywall soft and weak.

Further allowing that moisture into the insulation/framing can cause condensation, mold, lower insulation value and other problems.

Seal all openings in the walls and ceilings too with foam or caulking.
 
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