Shibrand
- Thread starter 3baygarage
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Oldtuleguy
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That's a new one to me
OP
3baygarage
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Same here. I can’t remember if I’ve run into the brand before, so took it home to see what you guys had on it. Haven’t found any info online.
Oldtuleguy
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Same script style as herbrand on logo
davethorik
Well-known member
Disgruntled employee in charge of stamping wrench blanks making portmanteau word of "****" and "Herbrand"??
OP
3baygarage
Well-known member
OK, I get it. "her" and "she", or in this case, "shi" because it's the only form that would fit.
I'm always sceptical of things like this, especially when the critical area is all corroded, then suddenly it clears up once you reach the "brand" part.
Looks like I can see the perfect outline of the loop in the normal Her's "e" inside the hump of the Shi's "h"
A modified wrench, can't say by whom. Maybe someone was screwing around in the factory, or it was an end user.
I'm always sceptical of things like this, especially when the critical area is all corroded, then suddenly it clears up once you reach the "brand" part.
Looks like I can see the perfect outline of the loop in the normal Her's "e" inside the hump of the Shi's "h"
A modified wrench, can't say by whom. Maybe someone was screwing around in the factory, or it was an end user.
twertsy
Well-known member
I come up with zilch for that one.............
That's because there's zilch to come up with, twertz!
OP
3baygarage
Well-known member
Thanks guys. I have it soaking now. Hopefully will show up a little better after.
OP
3baygarage
Well-known member
Since it appears that there is absolutely no reference to any such brand name on the internet, and since the rest of the markings are clearly Herbrand, it's obviously a modified wrench. That's not to say the modification didn't happen at the factory with somebody screwing around with a die that was perhaps being replaced anyway and so might have been a good choice to play a gag with.
The relationship between "Her" and "She" I mentioned is pretty apparent. The tongue-in-cheek motive is self-evident. If they chose to to use the two vertical staffs in the normal H as the staff for the S and the lower case h which it appears to be the case, especially since the top of the hump on the small "h" seems to line up perfectly with the top of the normal small "e"--and certainly they would have the skill to modify it this way--there would have been no room to add an "e" so they went with the "i" instead, since it could pronounce the same. I'm sure they all had a big laugh over it, especially if they slipped it into a customer's shipment. Probably trickled down to you from a worker's tools--if it were me and I cared about keeping my job, I wouldn't leave it laying around somewhere.
A shame, really, because it's now not desirable for completing a Herbrand collection set. Doubt it has any collector value at all other than a flea market-priced curiosity.
Now you can devote your life to building a whole set of them and be the envy of every vintage tool fan out there. Nice find....I think.
The relationship between "Her" and "She" I mentioned is pretty apparent. The tongue-in-cheek motive is self-evident. If they chose to to use the two vertical staffs in the normal H as the staff for the S and the lower case h which it appears to be the case, especially since the top of the hump on the small "h" seems to line up perfectly with the top of the normal small "e"--and certainly they would have the skill to modify it this way--there would have been no room to add an "e" so they went with the "i" instead, since it could pronounce the same. I'm sure they all had a big laugh over it, especially if they slipped it into a customer's shipment. Probably trickled down to you from a worker's tools--if it were me and I cared about keeping my job, I wouldn't leave it laying around somewhere.
A shame, really, because it's now not desirable for completing a Herbrand collection set. Doubt it has any collector value at all other than a flea market-priced curiosity.
Now you can devote your life to building a whole set of them and be the envy of every vintage tool fan out there. Nice find....I think.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I have the exact opposite reaction. I don't recall ever seeing a script Herbrand marking on any wrench without the fat underline flourish that emanates from the "d" at the end, with the term, "FREMONT, O." inside of it. Furthermore, I don't ever remember seeing them mark their tappet wrenches with the term "CHROME VANADIUM", or with the term "TAPPET" underneath the branding. I think it was either "VANADIUM Herbrand TAPPET" in a row across the shank, or "VAN-CHROME" Herbrand TAPPET" in a row across the shank. Wartime wrenches dropped the compositional branding (because, like everyone else, they had to drop the use of Chrome-Vanadium alloy) and the fancy script logo, going with a plain "HERBRAND TAPPET" in block letters instead.
EDIT: On top of that, it doesn't look to me as if the "Shi" part of that "Shibrand" marking has been added to an altered surface. They would've had to grind it down, build it back up, and finish it, and it just looks like the same original surface under the entire marking.
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Private Lugnutz
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Private Lugnutz
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I missed this thread the first time around, 3eeb, so I'm glad you posted again after cleaning it up. It's definitely a stumper and a curiosity, but I am not ready to put it on the shelf with Outlaw's unique and rather Italianate (modified Bonney 2729 Right Angle) "ROME VANADIUM" wrench just yet! 
OP
3baygarage
Well-known member
I missed this thread the first time around, 3eeb, so I'm glad you posted again after cleaning it up. It's definitely a stumper and a curiosity, but I am not ready to put it on the shelf with Outlaw's unique and rather Italianate (modified Bonney 2729 Right Angle) "ROME VANADIUM" wrench just yet!
Yes how quickly I forgot about the Rome Vanadium!This stamp is factory, no doubt about it.
Dam, this is reminding me of that cray red hammer with the Plomb wrench handle. At least a couple other members were able to come along with some form of corroborating evidence.
Here's what I think we can say almost 100% for sure, at least in my opinion:
1. The logo is clearly meant to mimic the Herbrand script name.
2. I still think it self evident that the "Her" and the "Shi" prefixes is a play on the words Her and She. It's tongue-in-cheek.
What is essential to any 'crime' is finding the motive. With the red hammer, the motive was finally discovered to be functional to a piece of equipment. Here, I think the evidence leads to only one of two possibilities.
A. It's a 'gag' wrench. It was made as a joke, maybe at the Herbrand factory itself. For now, it was made by parties unknown.
B. It is a competitor's wrench that was made to intentionally mislead a unwitting potential buyer with a vague recollection of what a real Herbrand wrench actually looked like into thinking he was buying the genuine article (in the days before the internet age where information was on your finger tips concerning what is what). I don't know if such practices took place among USA manufacturers back then, but I know in the early days of Asian imports it was done frequently (remember Blackhawke?). To think someone would have come up with a script name like that in complete isolation with no exposure or foreknowledge to the Herbrand logo would be....well, perhaps not impossible, but I think there's a better chance of winning the Powerball.
I think it would be helpful, 3Bay, if you were to take some fione sandpaper to it and get all that black off the wrench so we can clearly see every detail of the darker markings in contrast to a light background. I don't think you'll be hurting any collector value on it, but even enhancing it so the figures can be clearly seen.
So far, it remains a sole, unique artifact with no evidence of any other example. Unlike the mentioned red hammers, wrenches were generally made in quantities for resale to stores. Hopefully, another GJ member will come forward with another example. If no corroborating evidence can be found either in another wrench or in a period ad or catalog, then I lean toward a gag wrench.
Here's what I think we can say almost 100% for sure, at least in my opinion:
1. The logo is clearly meant to mimic the Herbrand script name.
2. I still think it self evident that the "Her" and the "Shi" prefixes is a play on the words Her and She. It's tongue-in-cheek.
What is essential to any 'crime' is finding the motive. With the red hammer, the motive was finally discovered to be functional to a piece of equipment. Here, I think the evidence leads to only one of two possibilities.
A. It's a 'gag' wrench. It was made as a joke, maybe at the Herbrand factory itself. For now, it was made by parties unknown.
B. It is a competitor's wrench that was made to intentionally mislead a unwitting potential buyer with a vague recollection of what a real Herbrand wrench actually looked like into thinking he was buying the genuine article (in the days before the internet age where information was on your finger tips concerning what is what). I don't know if such practices took place among USA manufacturers back then, but I know in the early days of Asian imports it was done frequently (remember Blackhawke?). To think someone would have come up with a script name like that in complete isolation with no exposure or foreknowledge to the Herbrand logo would be....well, perhaps not impossible, but I think there's a better chance of winning the Powerball.
I think it would be helpful, 3Bay, if you were to take some fione sandpaper to it and get all that black off the wrench so we can clearly see every detail of the darker markings in contrast to a light background. I don't think you'll be hurting any collector value on it, but even enhancing it so the figures can be clearly seen.
So far, it remains a sole, unique artifact with no evidence of any other example. Unlike the mentioned red hammers, wrenches were generally made in quantities for resale to stores. Hopefully, another GJ member will come forward with another example. If no corroborating evidence can be found either in another wrench or in a period ad or catalog, then I lean toward a gag wrench.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Agreed, or at least professionally applied, with a stamping die. By whom, why, and when are the questions.
I am convinced the factory was not script era (pre-war) Herbrand.
- In addition to the brand marking differences I have already pointed out, Herbrand did not use large fractional size markings like that, they did not put them on the shank, and they did not put them on the same side of the wrench as the branding. They were on the faces of the jaws on the flip side. Also, Herbrand used a model numbering system for their tappets, "H-1" (7/16 x 17/32) through "H-4" (3/4 x 7/8), and these were placed on the same side of the wrench as the branding on the shank, on the face of the larger jaw, which is always to the left of the branding. Contract production tappet wrenches had no branding, just the model numbers ("H-1" through "H-4") on either the face of the largest jaw, as described above, or in the middle of the shank. EDIT: Meaning, if it was a gag (and let's face it, if you're familiar with stamp die-making, this is no inexpensive gag), except for the partial allusion to the partial script Herbrand logo, they didn't get anything else even remotely right.
- More importantly, that wrench does not match the profile of a Herbrand script era (pre-war) wrench.
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Well, guys, you now have me leaning toward my option B, in that it's a legitimate product made by a company to deceive or mislead a potential customer. I confess I'm not all that familiar with every characteristic detail of a legitimate Herbrand wrench--if there's that many differences between this wrench and a legit, I'd agree it's unlikely to be a gag wrench. That would at least give us the 'why'.
You'll have to forgive my cynicism. I spent some years in a pretty seedy end of the tool sales business (I'm still planning to write something up about this on GJ involving a very well-known company, just haven't had the time to do it). Seen all kinds of things done by all kinds of characters that cause my scam alarms to go off at the slightest provocation. I'm perhaps overly vigilant as to when someone's trying to pull a funny one.
Don't know if there's any markings that indicate USA COO. If so, there might be period manufacturers' products and literature that can be examined to find similarities with the geometry and markings of this wrench, which may give us an idea of who made it.
Then there's the challenge of finding another, hopefully in a context that provides some clues.
You'll have to forgive my cynicism. I spent some years in a pretty seedy end of the tool sales business (I'm still planning to write something up about this on GJ involving a very well-known company, just haven't had the time to do it). Seen all kinds of things done by all kinds of characters that cause my scam alarms to go off at the slightest provocation. I'm perhaps overly vigilant as to when someone's trying to pull a funny one.
Don't know if there's any markings that indicate USA COO. If so, there might be period manufacturers' products and literature that can be examined to find similarities with the geometry and markings of this wrench, which may give us an idea of who made it.
Then there's the challenge of finding another, hopefully in a context that provides some clues.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Provincial
Well-known member
I wonder if Herbrand was trying to develop a less expensive line without directly linking it to the main brand? Kind of like Proto and Challenger. The script would remind the customer of the linkage, and the wrench could be sold at a lower price by reducing the warranty terms.
This would have been an advanced stage of development, from paper to tooling. If the Company employed a full-time engraver making stamps and dies, it might have been a pretty low-cost, spare time project.
This would have been an advanced stage of development, from paper to tooling. If the Company employed a full-time engraver making stamps and dies, it might have been a pretty low-cost, spare time project.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I explored that precise theory on the Herbrand thread, Jock. It's just odd to me that there would be two different riffs, and that we would find examples of the wrenches, but no examples of marketing in catalogs or trade mags.
Provincial
Well-known member
It just means our members are very good at sniffing out unusual items! Think of all the grind-off tools posted here. Most people would just pass them by.
Provincial
Well-known member
What I was adding is that the cost of the die might not have been a factor in making test pieces.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Ahh. True that.
Prototypes for a failed economy line excursion (as if they were experimenting with different names... 'Hmm. What about Shibrand instead of Hybrand?' and wanted to see what they looked like in metal, not just on paper) also helps explain the low numbers.
I can't get over the scam angle though. The profiles of the wrenches are not identical, and although the entire look of the italicized script logo is reminiscent enough to signal Herbrand, the lettering is not the same when you examine them closer.
I'm going to re-post this here, since we seem to be having Part II of the discussion here instead of the Herbrand thread.
Prototypes for a failed economy line excursion (as if they were experimenting with different names... 'Hmm. What about Shibrand instead of Hybrand?' and wanted to see what they looked like in metal, not just on paper) also helps explain the low numbers.
I can't get over the scam angle though. The profiles of the wrenches are not identical, and although the entire look of the italicized script logo is reminiscent enough to signal Herbrand, the lettering is not the same when you examine them closer.
I'm going to re-post this here, since we seem to be having Part II of the discussion here instead of the Herbrand thread.
Attachments
Very interesting....
At first I thought the shibrand was a gag, but then you guys leaned me away from that. Lugz' Hybrand seems to indicate that these variants were indeed mfd for sale like this. Great find, and for me, a revealing one.
I had mentioned before about my involvement back in the 1970s with a seedy (slimy) segment of tool sales. I finally did write a thread on the early days of pushing imported tools over the phone (which is where Harbor Freight got its start). In any event, one of the practices of the overseas mfrs was to make 'bootleg' or knockoff products with a name and logo that was very similar to a USA product. The one that sticks out in my memory is a Japanese (or Taiwan) company that started bootlegging the Blackhawk brand with the logo Blackhawke with an added 'e' on the end. We sold a lot of those. Of course, the phone salesmen didn't have a clue what was happening, since Blackhawk wasn't a household name like Craftsman, and auto mechanics weren't the kind of guys taking these desk jockey jobs. I remember a few buyers got hot about it, most were fine. I think it was last year on the forum I saw someone had come up with one of these Blackhawke drill presses we sold. Was kind of funny and embarrassing to see it--I hoped all that was lost to the past.
Any of you guys ever here of Hansom drill bits? I have. Ah so...fine drillee bittee.
So the finding of a Hy-brand steers my thinking into the Dark Side of the tool business. When I think about it, Herbrand would be a good name to pick on. Distinctive script logo that someone would easily mistake in a store if they didn't scrutinize it closely (why would they even think about examining it closely?). Only need to change a couple of letters. If this is what you mean by "scam" Lugz, I'm solidly onboard with that angle. I'm not so sure about the test-marketing idea, since the alternate logo doesn't point away from Herbrand but directly at it. Intentionally.
At first I thought the shibrand was a gag, but then you guys leaned me away from that. Lugz' Hybrand seems to indicate that these variants were indeed mfd for sale like this. Great find, and for me, a revealing one.
I had mentioned before about my involvement back in the 1970s with a seedy (slimy) segment of tool sales. I finally did write a thread on the early days of pushing imported tools over the phone (which is where Harbor Freight got its start). In any event, one of the practices of the overseas mfrs was to make 'bootleg' or knockoff products with a name and logo that was very similar to a USA product. The one that sticks out in my memory is a Japanese (or Taiwan) company that started bootlegging the Blackhawk brand with the logo Blackhawke with an added 'e' on the end. We sold a lot of those. Of course, the phone salesmen didn't have a clue what was happening, since Blackhawk wasn't a household name like Craftsman, and auto mechanics weren't the kind of guys taking these desk jockey jobs. I remember a few buyers got hot about it, most were fine. I think it was last year on the forum I saw someone had come up with one of these Blackhawke drill presses we sold. Was kind of funny and embarrassing to see it--I hoped all that was lost to the past.
Any of you guys ever here of Hansom drill bits? I have. Ah so...fine drillee bittee.
So the finding of a Hy-brand steers my thinking into the Dark Side of the tool business. When I think about it, Herbrand would be a good name to pick on. Distinctive script logo that someone would easily mistake in a store if they didn't scrutinize it closely (why would they even think about examining it closely?). Only need to change a couple of letters. If this is what you mean by "scam" Lugz, I'm solidly onboard with that angle. I'm not so sure about the test-marketing idea, since the alternate logo doesn't point away from Herbrand but directly at it. Intentionally.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
It is what I meant, which I described in a much longer post including additional comparison pics at the end of the Herbrand thread as a blatant and audacious attempt to exploit the Herbrand brand and place in the tappet wrench market.
Provincial
Well-known member
I know that on firearms many, if not all markings were made with roll dies, rather than straight hand stamps. This had the advantage of applying pressure on only a few of the figures at a time, rather than the whole string. I can see a roll die making the trademark very easily, and being a separate operation from the rest of the markings.
Which leaves the one question as to whodunit. Could it have been a known brand name mfr? Or one of the many contract mfrs who made it for a customer. Duro? Vlchek? Has anyone compared the geometry and number style stampings of these bootlegs to tappet wrench versions by known mfrs?
woody 73
Well-known member
Info if anyone wanted to see some more Herbrand:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277900&highlight=herbrand
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277900&highlight=herbrand