ship welding during WWII

[Openboater]

I'm researching welding methods in the shipyards during WWII for a piece of writing that I'm working on. Lot's of women doing welding for ships in the bay area, Marinship in particular. I'm a total know-nothing on this matter. I have to assume the welding was done via electricity in these yards. Can anyone enlighten me or direct me to a source that will help me out for more detail? Thanks. t

 

[Iron-Iceberg]

Here is one


http://www.rosietheriveter.org/shipyards.htm

 

[38Chevy454]

Interesting side note, the Liberty ships had a bad problem of cracking and splitting in the middle. Not due to bad welds, but due to bad metallurgy. The steel was crappy and had a ductile-to-brittle transition temp that was too high. In cold water the steel would transition and the ship could split.

I don't know the welding method used, but given the high production rate i presume it was a MIG (or as officially called GMAW) process.

 

[RandyPenn]

My grandma was a welder in a shipyard in Portland, OR building liberty ships. I don't have much detail but I know they used stick welders. I'll see if I can find more about it from her.

 

[rockwithjason]

stick welding was the dominate process

 

[AMCguy]

Man they pumped out those Liberty ships. I read in a book I have somewhere that they were start to finish in only a few days.

 

[rlitman]

Interesting side note, the Liberty ships had a bad problem of cracking and splitting in the middle. . . I don't know the welding method used, but given the high production rate i presume it was a MIG (or as officially called GMAW) process.

Nope. It way predates that process. SMAW stick welding was the only thing around at the time when it comes to electric arc. And the rod coating was nothing more than cellulose (paper pulp). This causes hydrogen embrittlement (which was not understood at the time).

 

[Stuart in MN]

Yes, it was stick welding - one of my aunts worked in a shipyard in Duluth, MN during the war.

 

[TAMPAGT07]

You might want to check out this website and contact these people..This is one of only 4 fully-operational WWII ships in the country...It's docked here in Tampa...

http://www.americanvictory.org/

 

[justanengineer]

Back then you had your choice of stick, electric resistance spot, and gas welding for production, but many things werent welded that today would be because you also had the choice of riveting and a few other methods of joint construction that have become truly lost arts. If you look at not only pressure vessels like boilers, but also many fuel tanks, vehicle and airplane bodies/skins, and other "goods," there were different methods of manufacturing then.

 

[rlitman]

Back then you had your choice of stick and gas welding for production. You also had the choice of riveting and a few other methods of joint construction that have become truly lost arts.

Only riveting was used in shipbuilding (gas welding and forge welding would never have been an option for plates so thick anyway).

Kaiser had done much work to speed up the construction of cargo ships to keep England and the European front in good supply, and one design change was to introduce welding using modular construction to get ships out faster. It was unconventional at the time, but such a revolutionary idea did indeed speed up production quite a bit (even if the first attempts resulted in ships splitting in half in the North Atlantic).

 

[theoldwizard1]

Interesting side note, the Liberty ships had a bad problem of cracking and splitting in the middle. Not due to bad welds, but due to bad metallurgy. The steel was crappy and had a ductile-to-brittle transition temp that was too high. In cold water the steel would transition and the ship could split.

It took them awhile to figure this out. When they did, they added a "belt" of steel up high on the sides. This worked well.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Man they pumped out those Liberty ships. I read in a book I have somewhere that they were start to finish in only a few days.

Actually the record was 5 days !

SS Robert E. Peary

But they cheated !

To meet the deadline, the Richmond Shipyard prefabricated as much of the vessel as possible at its No. 2 Yard and pre-positioned the sections to enable the workers to assemble it with maximum efficiency. The keel was laid at 12:01 am on November 8, 1942. The rest of the ship was built from prefabricated 250-ton sections with the engines already in place. The bottom shell unit was installed first, followed by the inner-bottom unit to support the boiler, engine and pump. The boilers were put in place by mid-morning, followed by transverse bulkheads and the shaft tunnel. The upper deck was completed on the second day, with the installation of the lower forepeak, more bulkheads and the fantail. The masts, derricks and superstructure were installed on the third day. During the final day the wiring, welding and painting was completed along with the installation of the forward gun platform and the inner stack. She was launched at 3:27 pm on November 12 after around 250,000 individual parts weighing 14,000,000 lb (6,400,000 kg) had been assembled. After 26 minutes of speeches, Mrs. James F. Byrnes, the wife of the head of Roosevelt's Economic Stabilization Office, christened the ship and it was sent down the slipway into San Francisco Bay. It was delivered for service on November 15, setting an additional record of 7 days, 14 hours and 32 minutes from laying the keel to delivery.

The record speed of the construction was a propaganda effort intended to show that the United States could produce ships faster than they could be sunk. Normally, the Permanente yard took an average of about 50 days to build a Liberty ship.

 

[RECox286]

The way I understand it, welders were paid by the pound of sticks

they burned.

Uncle Bob

 

[38Chevy454]

Nope. It way predates that process. SMAW stick welding was the only thing around at the time when it comes to electric arc. And the rod coating was nothing more than cellulose (paper pulp). This causes hydrogen embrittlement (which was not understood at the time).

The problem was not hydrogen embrittlement. HE causes a different failure, usually a very short period (like 72 hours after put under load). I am a metallurgical engineer, my statement of the ductile-to-brittle transition is correct. My assumption that they used a MIG process was incorrect, so I stand corrected on that. The poor grade of steel is the root cause why the ships cracking in half. Weld defects and poor design with stress concentration were contributors, but the real problem was the steel itself. The steel allowed the crack to run long distances once the cold temps made the steel brittle.

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia, which I realize is not the end-all truth for facts (see link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship)
Problems
SS Jeremiah O'Brien

Early Liberty ships suffered hull and deck cracks, and a few were lost to such structural defects. During World War II, there were nearly 1,500 instances of significant brittle fractures. Twelve ships, including three of the 2,710 Liberties built, broke in half without warning, including the SS John P. Gaines,[10][11] which sank on 24 November 1943 with the loss of 10 lives. Suspicion fell on the shipyards which had often used inexperienced workers and new welding techniques to produce large numbers of ships in great haste.[12] The Ministry of War Transport lent the British-built Empire Duke for testing purposes.[13] Constance Tipper of Cambridge University demonstrated that the fractures were not initiated by welding, but instead by the grade of steel used, which suffered from embrittlement.[12] She discovered that the ships in the North Atlantic were exposed to temperatures that could fall below a critical point when the mechanism of failure changed from ductile to brittle, and thus the hull could fracture rather easily. The predominantly welded (as opposed to riveted) hull construction then allowed cracks to run for large distances unimpeded. One common type of crack nucleated at the square corner of a hatch which coincided with a welded seam, both the corner and the weld acting as stress concentrators. Furthermore, the ships were frequently grossly overloaded and some of the problems occurred during or after severe storms at sea that would have placed any ship at risk. Various reinforcements were applied to the Liberty ships to arrest the crack problems, and the successor design, the Victory ship, was stronger and less stiff to better deal with fatigue.

See also link here, it is a little tough to read with the weird spacing: http://www.sozogaku.com/fkd/en/hfen/HB1011020.pdf

 

[WhyMe]

there is a museum in Richmond Ca across the bay from SF. It tell the story of the ship bulidiing and manufacturing during the war

 

[kevin47]

I live in the SF Bay area and still find and buy machinery marked "Property of the War Dept." From the "Victory Ship" days...As a collector I restore and use this equipment in my own shop...They still work great...!

 

[justanengineer]

Only riveting was used in shipbuilding (gas welding and forge welding would never have been an option for plates so thick anyway).

On my end I wasnt really clear what the definition of WW2 "shipbuilding" was. Many of those boats are ginormous to say the least and full of brass and other fixtures, parts, and assemblies with every manner of metal joinery. If were talking superstructure and hull only....I would have to agree for the most part, tho would suspect there were quite a few stick welds mixed in.

 

[GRX]

Living near Baltimore I have heard lots of stories from old timers where welding was first used on Liberty ships at places like the Sparrow's Point (Bethlehem-Fairfield) ship yard. Some of those ships are still in service in 3rd world fleets today.

And let's not forget that welding was not generally trusted until the big retooling era during WW2. Many thought the ships made such would fall to pieces soon as they hit the water. Riveting steel was king up until that time (see links below).

Some links which may help with your research. Best of luck with your paper.

Welding's vital part in major American historical events
>> http://www.aws.org/about/blockbuster.html

Project Liberty Ship
>> http://www.liberty-ship.com/html/yards/bethfairfield.html

Bethlehem-Fairfield Shipyard
>> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/fairfield.htm[/b]

The 'lost art' of ship riveting
>> http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-11-20/news/1997324040_1_liberty-ship-rivets-ss-john-w

 

[Highbeam]

They still stick weld. I spent a couple years as a naval architect at puget sound naval shipyard. Lot's of stick. Lots. Especially out in the drydocks.

I did get a chance to weld together full sheets of 2" thick steel using a submerged arc welder. THis thing was cool and looked old fashioned but it was a cart that fed pencil sized bare wire and dumped granular flux onto the puddle.

The shipyards had carbon arc cutting torches, as well as plasma cutters and regular acetylene torches.

Seems electric was king.

 

[Fitzgerald]

My grandfather had a medical condition that kept him from serving, so he welded ships during WWII. Stick welding with, if I remember correctly, a 600 amp welder.

 

[ZRX61]

I live in the SF Bay area and still find and buy machinery marked "Property of the War Dept." From the "Victory Ship" days...As a collector I restore and use this equipment in my own shop...They still work great...!

Pics please!

 

[Capt Chrysler]

MIL was a welder there. I'l ask her what she remembers.

Capt. Chrysler

 

[Bib Overalls]

There is an interesting article here:

http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Article.jsp?id=h-1475

My understanding is the race riots were not instigated so much because black welders were employed so much as the fact that they were getting the same pay as white welders.

My father was a Norwegian sailor and he went to sea around 1930. He told me he still remembered seeing the first ship with an all welded hull. He said it was beautiful.

I also understand that destroyer escorts, basically anti-submarine combatents, were mass produced in a manner similar to Victory ships in yards on the east coast and on the great lakes. One yard in the Great Lakes area started building the hulls upside down because it was easier and faster to weld the bottoms and overheads that way. The hulls were then rolled over and the decks were welded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defoe_Shipbuilding_Company

 

[stafford]

Pop welded on liberty ships in savannah, the welding he did was stick. He said he remembered seeing them lay a track out on the deck and put a welding machine that fed #9 wire and it had a hopper attached that drizzled what he thought was flux.

 

[kevin47]

Pics please!

I'd like too...If I go out and take some new ones...You'd see a Grob 18" bandsaw...Just like new...And a Reid 2B Surface Grinder...I used to work at a Grinding Specialty Shop and we ran Gisholt Turrert Lathes and O.D. Grinders (B.& S.) that we're surplus, too...

 

[AMCguy]

Somewhere out there, there is a black and white photo of a ship's deck being welded by dozens of ladies under umbrellas to protect them from the hot sun. I would imagine it was in California but I'm not sure. I've always thought that was a very cool picture. If anyone comes across it, please post it up.

 

[unkamort]

PM sent... contact info included

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Pop welded on liberty ships in savannah, the welding he did was stick. He said he remembered seeing them lay a track out on the deck and put a welding machine that fed #9 wire and it had a hopper attached that drizzled what he thought was flux.

The shipyard at Thunderbolt.

Somewhere in the city of Savannah, and I do not remember where I saw it, is a rather large model of a liberty ship, of the type built at Thunderbolt.

America's greatest generation truly did produce for the war effort like never before or since. That would be impossible to do today, we simply don't have the capability or the people with the willingness to do the work.

Charles

 

[Kevin C]

From what I know... The embrittlement cracks were not welding related and were caused by basic properties of the steel that was used. I remember this from metallurgy classes. EDIT: Just notice this was mentioned in an earlier post.

http://www.aws.org/w/a/about/blockbuster.html

blamed welding, but history would soon prove that the real cause of brittle fracture was steels that were notch sensitive at operating temperatures. The steel was found to have high sulfur and phosphorus contents. Another cause was design-related discontinuities, such as hatch openings, vents and other interruptions in the structure. By far the highest incidence of fracture occurred under a combination of low air temperature and heavy seas

The welding rod used at the time was probably a bit more developed than previously suggested.

Approximately 1900, Strohmenger introduced a coated metal electrode in Great Britain. There was a thin coating of clay or lime, but it provided a more stable arc. Oscar Kjellberg of Sweden invented a covered or coated electrode during the period of 1907 to 1914. Stick electrodes were produced by dipping short lengths of bare iron wire in thick mixtures of carbonates and silicates, and allowing the coating to dry.

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/index.php?page=articles14.html

During the 1920s, various types of welding electrodes were developed. There was considerable controversy during the 1920s about the advantage of the heavy-coated rods versus light-coated rods. The heavy-coated electrodes, which were made by extruding, were developed by Langstroth and Wunder of the A.O. Smith Company and were used by that company in 1927. In 1929, Lincoln Electric Company produced extruded electrode rods that were sold to the public. By 1930, covered electrodes were widely used. Welding codes appeared which required higher-quality weld metal, which increased the use of covered electrodes.

Electrode Development:

3.1 Development of Covered Electrodes During the 1890's, arc welding was accomplished with bare metal electrodes. The welds produced were
porous and brittle because the molten weld puddle absorbed larg quantities of oxygen and nitrogen
from the atmosphere. Operators noticed that a rusty rod produced a better weld than a shiny clean rod.
Observations also showed than an improved weld could be made by wrapping the rod in newspaper or by
welding adjacent to a pine board placed close to and parallel with the weld being made. In these cases,
some degree of shielding the arc form the atmosphere was being accomplished. These early observations
led to the development of the coated electrode.

3.1.0.1 Around 1920, the A.O. Smith Corporation developed an electrode spirally wrapped with paper,
soaked in sodium silicate, and then baked. This was the first of the cellulosic type electrodes.
It produced an effective gas shield in the area and greatly improved the ductility of the weld metal.

3.1.0.2 Because of the method used to manufacture these paper covered electrodes, it was difficult
to effectively add other ingredients to the coating. In 1924, the A.O. Smith Corporation began work
on coatings that could be extruded over the core wire. This method allowed the addition of other
flux ingredients to furhter improve or modify the weld metal and by 1927, these electrodes were
being produced commercially.

3.1.0.3 Since 1927, many improvements have been made and many different types of electrodes have
been developed and produced. Through variations in the formulations of the covering and the amount
of covering on the mild steel core wire, many different classifications of electrodes are produced today.

3.2 Manufacturing Covered Electrodes


Mild steel covered electrodes, also commonly called coated electrodes, consist of only two major elements;
the core wire or rod and the flux covering. The core wire is usually low carbon steel.
It must contain only small amounts of aluminum and copper, and the sulfur and phosphorous levels
must be kept very low since they can cause undesirable brittleness in the weld metal. The raw material
for the core wire is hot-rolled rod (commonly called "hot rod"). It is

http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/AWTC/Lesson3_4.htm

 

[D.J.]

Well I recall that ships and planes were both built in Evansville IN according to the newpaper clippings I have seen in the past when anniversarys of certain events occur in the recent past. The ships were built on the banks of the Ohio river behind the Mead - Johnson plant off of the Lloyd Expressway. The planes were built in the old Whirlpool plant out off of Highway 41 North next to the Airport.

 

[LutzTD]

The shipyard at Thunderbolt.

Somewhere in the city of Savannah, and I do not remember where I saw it, is a rather large model of a liberty ship, of the type built at Thunderbolt.

America's greatest generation truly did produce for the war effort like never before or since. That would be impossible to do today, we simply don't have the capability or the people with the willingness to do the work.
Charles

I would think a war now like that war would bring about the same type of effort. You have to remember that at that time there wasnt alot of industry because of the depression. there were a lot of people who would work at anythign just to eat. history has a funny way of making things of old seem heroic but they as we could be at any time, were ordinary people thrown into extraordinary circumstance. dont get me worng, we owe a lot to them, but they stepped up and I think America would do just the same at any time if needed

I love seing the old pics from those days, very patriotic and interesting, good luck with your project.

 

[ford33]

This is an interesting thread. I like the stories. Please keep adding information.

 

[Fitzgerald]

My grandfather had a medical condition that kept him from serving, so he welded ships during WWII. Stick welding with, if I remember correctly, a 600 amp welder.

FYI: He's was working in Beaumont Texas.

 

[bighouse01]

I would think a war now like that war would bring about the same type of effort. You have to remember that at that time there wasnt alot of industry because of the depression. there were a lot of people who would work at anythign just to eat. history has a funny way of making things of old seem heroic but they as we could be at any time, were ordinary people thrown into extraordinary circumstance. dont get me worng, we owe a lot to them, but they stepped up and I think America would do just the same at any time if needed

I love seing the old pics from those days, very patriotic and interesting, good luck with your project.

Unless it takes the duration of the war just to complete the environmental impact study before doing anything.

I often wonder if a manufacturing effort seen in WWII is possible again.

 

[Fitzgerald]

Unless it takes the duration of the war just to complete the environmental impact study before doing anything.

I often wonder if a manufacturing effort seen in WWII is possible again.

Having grown up in the foothills of the LA basin, the mountains were at my doorstep, yet the smog was so bad that several days each month, we couldn’t even see them.

My dad telling me stories of when he was a kid, rivers catching on fire.

And now stories out of China where fish die within 20 minutes of being put into urban area rivers.

Thanks, but I prefer some of our current environmental protections.

 

[A_Pmech]

I'm researching welding methods in the shipyards during WWII for a piece of writing that I'm working on. Lot's of women doing welding for ships in the bay area, Marinship in particular. I'm a total know-nothing on this matter. I have to assume the welding was done via electricity in these yards. Can anyone enlighten me or direct me to a source that will help me out for more detail? Thanks. t

You might also be interested in the man who's company adapted the Liberty ship for mass production from an English design: William Francis Gibbs and his firm Gibbs & Cox. They pioneered the process of assembling the ship from multiple assemblies which were built by outside contractors and assembled at the shipyard.

It's worth noting that Gibbs had no formal training in shipbuilding, he was a lawyer with an obsession about ships. His most famous ship is the S.S. United States, which is still the fastest ship to make the transatlantic crossing in either direction over 60 years after it's maiden voyage.

It set the speed records at ahead 2/3rds.

 

[GBsnoopy]

As said by others it was stick welding which was used. It is still used extensively in shipyards today. That is why the large welding manufacturer still make large power MMA welders as one of there main customers.is shipyards.

 

[dittle fart around]

View media item 12249Should look something like this. I worked at Mare Island supplying temporary power to other crafts. Welders took three phase 480.

 

[bighouse01]

Having grown up in the foothills of the LA basin, the mountains were at my doorstep, yet the smog was so bad that several days each month, we couldn’t even see them.

My dad telling me stories of when he was a kid, rivers catching on fire.

And now stories out of China where fish die within 20 minutes of being put into urban area rivers.

Thanks, but I prefer some of our current environmental protections.

Yes, I understand your point. I was referencing a war effort, where the nations livelyhood would rely on near instant mass production of war materials.