Shop electric

[PUGLIA]

My house service is 320. I have two 200amp panels. 1 main and 1 sub upstairs. I need to feed a shop with 100 amps 250ft from the house.
A electrician told me I couldn’t split off the meter can and feed the shop. Said I would need to add a 400 amp panel to feed the house and the shop.

Something is telling me he’s just trying to get money. He has laid it on pretty thick about the cost to do this. Even after I told him I was trenching and buying the wire.

Figured I would reach out here to get some info and help. My shop is going up in May so I’m trying to get this all figured out. If anyone needs any more information I’ll try to get it.

 

[rlitman]

You can't split off at the meter pan unless you have that as your main panel.
You can tap into either your existing main panel, or your upstairs sub if you want.

 

[pattenp]

If you have breaker space you can add another subpanel for the shop as said off one of the existing panels. Did you do load calcs to see if you actually need a full 100A at the shop?

 

[PUGLIA]

You can't split off at the meter pan unless you have that as your main panel.
You can tap into either your existing main panel, or your upstairs sub if you want.

Ok so here’s another question. the main breaker panel is 200 amp if I split off from there with a 100 amp it doesn’t matter what the service is. If I push 200 amps with the shop and the house I could have problems correct?

 

[pattenp]

That's why you need to do a load calculation so not to have problems.

 

[Slowgsr]

Curious what's all coming put of your existing 200a panels? Electric heat?

 

[PUGLIA]

3000sqft home all electric. 2 3.5 ton ac units 2 floors. So yes my biggest concern is that middle of summer in OK both ac’s running wife cooking TVs and lights on. I’m out in the shop and fire up some **** and push 200.

Second to load calculations.

I get that if I was splitting off the 200amp main panel I have. But why have to even worry about it when I have 320A service and have the ability not to stress anything?
My shop is 200’ away from the house if I want to put anything else on my property over there I would have the ability to add with 100amp service over there.

I’m just trying to figure out the cheapest way to get 100 Amps to my shop.
-if I absolutely need a 400A box to split off the meter can. Then to my 3subs 2/2/1
-or if there’s another way to take advantage of the 320 without having to go that route

 

[protegeV]

Your house, service, and usage sounds nearly identical to mine. I contacted the electric company and they reviewed my usage over the last 24months. The highest load we have ever pulled was 110a. I ended up running a 125a panel in the shop off one of my 200a panels in the house about 130' away

 

[PUGLIA]

Your house, service, and usage sounds nearly identical to mine. I contacted the electric company and they reviewed my usage over the last 24months. The highest load we have ever pulled was 110a. I ended up running a 125a panel in the shop off one of my 200a panels in the house about 130' away

That’s a good idea. Thnx for the tip on the review.

 

[protegeV]

That’s a good idea. Thnx for the tip on the review.

No problem. It's ironic you mentioned feeling the hard sell from your initial estimate. I had assumed I needed a separate meter and started planning that route. I explained what usage the shop would see and the tech looked at the service on the house. He took it upon himself to check out usage and suggest that I did not need a separate service. Saved me about a $4k install, a separate meter charge, and some ugly above ground wiring since it's too far to run full underground.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My house service is 320. I have two 200amp panels. 1 main and 1 sub upstairs. I need to feed a shop with 100 amps 250ft from the house.
An electrician told me I couldn’t split off the meter can and feed the shop. Said I would need to add a 400 amp panel to feed the house and the shop.

Something is telling me he’s just trying to get money. He has laid it on pretty thick about the cost to do this. Even after I told him I was trenching and buying the wire.

Figured I would reach out here to get some info and help. My shop is going up in May so I’m trying to get this all figured out. If anyone needs any more information I’ll try to get it.

without seeing what you have, theres no way, over the internet, to tell if he is correct.

Typically, meter pans of that size have dual lugs.

Can you post some pics>

 

[rlitman]

...Typically, meter pans of that size have dual lugs.

Can you post some pics>

Even if it does, a detached building is sure to be too far away to feed directly from that. Maybe he could connect the second set of lugs to a fused disconnect, and use that to feed the shop.

Your house, service, and usage sounds nearly identical to mine. I contacted the electric company and they reviewed my usage over the last 24months. The highest load we have ever pulled was 110a. I ended up running a 125a panel in the shop off one of my 200a panels in the house about 130' away

That's an interesting point. For a residential service, my utility doesn't track "demand", and in my case, I have an analog meter which is incapable of tracking demand. But if you have a smart meter that sends data to the utility over the radio, then the utility may have the demand data, and if you have a digital meter that is manually read, it is still possible that the peak demand is one of the data points displayed.

 

[pattenp]

without seeing what you have, theres no way, over the internet, to tell if he is correct.

Typically, meter pans of that size have dual lugs.

Can you post some pics>

That's what I was wondering. If there is only one 200A main panel I was thinking there should be a second set of lugs with it being a 320A meter socket.

 

[Falcon67]

Probably local regs don't allow a double tap on the meter lugs. OP says he has two 200A panels connected already. My building is fixing to go dark today for the same reason - adding a transfer switch for a big standby generator and the 600A Bulldog panel is 6 way tapped on the three lugs. They are moving all that to a separate box where they can tap in all the basement panels for the building. Building is 72 years old BTW. Few codes changes over time I think LOL.

 

[pattenp]

Probably local regs don't allow a double tap on the meter lugs. OP says he has two 200A panels connected already. My building is fixing to go dark today for the same reason - adding a transfer switch for a big standby generator and the 600A Bulldog panel is 6 way tapped on the three lugs. They are moving all that to a separate box where they can tap in all the basement panels for the building. Building is 72 years old BTW. Few codes changes over time I think LOL.

Not double tap if two sets of lugs are provided. And the OP said the second 200A panel is a subpanel which I assume is fed off the first 200A panel. But no info was provided as to what the actual feed was to the second 200A panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Even if it does, a detached building is sure to be too far away to feed directly from that. Maybe he could connect the second set of lugs to a fused disconnect, and use that to feed the shop.



That's an interesting point. For a residential service, my utility doesn't track "demand", and in my case, I have an analog meter which is incapable of tracking demand. But if you have a smart meter that sends data to the utility over the radio, then the utility may have the demand data, and if you have a digital meter that is manually read, it is still possible that the peak demand is one of the data points displayed.

What? Why would distance matter?

Its done all the time.

In fact theres been several threads on here with that exact scenario.

 

[rlitman]

What? Why would distance matter?...

Because you're limited on how long your unfused conductors can be.

 

[PUGLIA]

So I was probably mistaken about the size of upstairs sub panel. I do not believe it is tapped to the meter at all. It looks like it was fed from the 200amp breaker panel down stairs. I still need to pull the cover on the upstairs Serb panel to be sure. So here are some pics.

But to what you guys are discussing. A 320Amp meter can should have 2 sets of lugs? Correct? If that’s the case I should be able to simply leave my house as is and just run a feed to my shop no problem and save myself a ton of cash, correct?

 

[PUGLIA]

Sorry had to get 5 posts in to post pics!

Downstairs main panel

Upstairs sub panel:

 

[TRWham]

Because you're limited on how long your unfused conductors can be.

Not outdoors, you're not.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Because you're limited on how long your unfused conductors can be.

Incorrect.

The NEC does not have a limit indoors or out.

Some AHJs have local written amendments that limit the length indoors, however.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sorry had to get 5 posts in to post pics!

Downstairs main panel

Upstairs sub panel:

One potential issue i see off the bat, is the main neutral lug appears to have 2 wires under it. This is a no-no, especially for a neutral lug.

If it does indeed have 2 wires under it, this needs to be fixed!

 

[rlitman]

Incorrect.

The NEC does not have a limit indoors or out.

Some AHJs have local written amendments that limit the length indoors, however.

The NEC limit is vague, but not non-existent. It just says the run should be as short as possible. That leaves a lot to interpretation, on top of MANY local amendments to code by both AHJ's AND Power Companies (since connections in the meter pan require BOTH to approve).

Around here, nobody (neither the AHJ nor the PoCo) will let you tap off a meter and feed a second structure like that, but if you think you can in your area, then ok. I'd still recommend just connecting the second lugs (if they exist, and if you can use them for this purpose) to a fused disconnect right next to the meter. Have you ever seen the mess that happens when SE fails?

 

[PUGLIA]

One potential issue i see off the bat, is the main neutral lug appears to have 2 wires under it. This is a no-no, especially for a neutral lug.



If it does indeed have 2 wires under it, this needs to be fixed!

Trying to Learn here.

Why and what’s the solution.


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[PUGLIA]

The NEC limit is vague, but not non-existent. It just says the run should be as short as possible. That leaves a lot to interpretation, on top of MANY local amendments to code by both AHJ's AND Power Companies (since connections in the meter pan require BOTH to approve).

Around here, nobody (neither the AHJ nor the PoCo) will let you tap off a meter and feed a second structure like that, but if you think you can in your area, then ok. I'd still recommend just connecting the second lugs (if they exist, and if you can use them for this purpose) to a fused disconnect right next to the meter. Have you ever seen the mess that happens when SE fails?

Ok so here is one of the main reasons why I felt the electrician was trying to hustle me. The PSO engineer plainly stated that the meter pan I have is a 200amp. However my service running to it is 320A. He said that I could come by and pick up a 320A meter pan for free.

The electrician said he believed the pan I have was 320 and that I would need a 400amp meter panel off of that to feed the current 200A and sub (100A or whatever it is) and the shop.

So I decided to just go down to PSO and pick up a 320 meter pan since they were given it free so I could see the difference myself. Wow, what a difference.

So to be honest, I have no idea what I’m looking at here. But if I get this 320A meter pan Hooked up.

1: can I run a separate feed to a 100A fused disconnect next to the meter and run from there to my shop?

2: Just hook up my main 200A panel that is currently in the house and leave everything else as is?

That seems like a much more cost effective solution than what the electrician suggested.

Separate from that what do I need to do about the neutral in my main panel having two lines connected to it?


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[PUGLIA]

What I currently have

The new 320A meter pan

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[pattenp]

Trying to Learn here.

Why and what’s the solution.


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Get a neutral lug kit for that panel.

 

[rlitman]

Ok so here is one of the main reasons why I felt the electrician was trying to hustle me. The PSO engineer plainly stated that the meter pan I have is a 200amp. However my service running to it is 320A. He said that I could come by and pick up a 320A meter pan for free...

WOW! That's awful nice of them, and that's a nice pan too. I'm guessing your current pan doesn't have a lever bypass, so that would be a good upgrade if you don't mind having your house without power for the better part of a day.

 

[PUGLIA]

Get a neutral lug kit for that panel.

Thank you.


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[alfredeneuman]

Because you're limited on how long your unfused conductors can be.

2017 NEC 240.21(5) Outside Taps of Unlimited Length is the Code reference that says you can do it.

 

[pattenp]

2017 NEC 240.21(5) Feeder Taps of Unlimited Length is the Code reference that says you can do it.

240.21(B)(5) Outside Taps of Unlimited Length.

 

[alfredeneuman]

240.21(B)(5) Outside Taps of Unlimited Length.

Yes I made a mistake, not my first, and most definitely not my last :tard:

That's the reason for most of my editing of posts

 

[PUGLIA]

WOW! That's awful nice of them, and that's a nice pan too. I'm guessing your current pan doesn't have a lever bypass, so that would be a good upgrade if you don't mind having your house without power for the better part of a day.

Yeah, it was pretty cool. So to your statement earlier about hooking up a disconnect to the second set of lugs. Does the 320 pan have two sets and would that work for my purposes?

I’m just trying to get information so when I find the right electrician to do the work I don’t sound like a complete donkey and I don’t get charged for a bunch of **** that I didn’t need.


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[TRWham]

That pan appears to have dual load side lugs. You may be required to install hard-wired smoke detectors (or smoke/CO combos) when you pull a permit. We are in our area, so be prepared if you do not already have them. You should not be required to install CAFCIs. You also have a working space issue around the current meter location (that CDU is too close) so be prepared for that. That unit is also too close to the fence for good performance, but that's an HVAC problem, not electrical.

Where did you get that Copeland sticker on your unit? I had some at one time, but I worked for Copeland.

 

[PUGLIA]

That pan appears to have dual load side lugs. You may be required to install hard-wired smoke detectors (or smoke/CO combos) when you pull a permit. We are in our area, so be prepared if you do not already have them. You should not be required to install CAFCIs. You also have a working space issue around the current meter location (that CDU is too close) so be prepared for that. That unit is also too close to the fence for good performance, but that's an HVAC problem, not electrical.



Where did you get that Copeland sticker on your unit? I had some at one time, but I worked for Copeland.

I live in the country/county in Oklahoma . Don’t have to pull a permit for any of the work where I live. I just want it to be done right and safe.


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