Shop feeder wire source

[robb1887]

I'm looking for suggestions or cautionary tale of where you've sourced large wire from. I'm located in SE VA

During planning I speced 4-4-4-2 MHF direct burial AL wire for my 200A in my shop which is ~170ft run.

I plan to upgrade my house service from the std 200A meter to a dual lug 400A service.

I've looked around online but cannot find any good feedback on who's best for pricing and known quality cable and reputable source.

I haven't been able to identify any local source house with competitive pricing and Lowes, et all, big box stores are very expensive. I do not have a Menards near me.

NNC (Nassau National Cable) has provided me a quote but their pestering followup calls/emails, less than easy to navigate website, and quite honestly all their very foreigner names I've interacted with have me hesitant to pull that trigger.

Any suggestions?

 

[cybrdyke]

local electrical supply?

 

[mm08822]

Wireandcableyourway.com is pretty good for delivered price.

#4 copper or aluminum will not support 200a at any distance.

Go back and figure your loads. I highly doubt you need 400a and 200a is probably good enough for both combined.

 

[robb1887]

Wireandcableyourway.com is pretty for delivered price.

#4 copper or aluminum will not support 200a at any distance.

Go back and figure your loads. I highly doubt you need 400a and 200a is probably good enough for both combined.

I think this is where my lack of electrician lingo is causing me issues.

4-4-4-2 from my internet-ing for MHF is 4/0 4/0 4/0 2/0 sized AL? Maybe I'm saying that wrong and need to inlcude the "/0"s

First supply house local to me couldn't provide the but suggested two others that show up on google searches so I'm going to call them as well.

 

[tworley]

I bought my 100' roll of AL 1/0-1/0-1/0-2 from Nassau on eBay. During the Covid-era, it was the cheapest I could find. Looking at prices now, wow did I overpay

​

 

[PCustoms]

4 is not 4/0

4/0,4/0,2/0,4 is probably fine

 

[cannuck]

I think 4/0 MHF is typically rated at 200A. At 170' I think you should look for an industrial cable supplier (most will happily cut that length). I tend to agree with mm08822 400A is a LOT of juice. I run our house and shop on 100A and only one machine ever makes me look at other loads and even then only when I am running it to extreme load. Before you do anything best to hook up with an electrician to keep you on track and within codes.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

#4 and #4/0 are not the same. 4/0 is a lot larger... 7 sizes larger

 

[mike93lx]

Why are you upgrading service to 400? That's huge and unless you are doing something that is adding 100+a of load, feels excessive.

My house has 320 and it's completely unnecessary. I am using two full panels of breakers, but would never come close to even exceeding 200.

 

[PCustoms]

I haven't been able to identify any local source house with competitive pricing and Lowes, et all, big box stores are very expensive. I do not have a Menards near me.

Looks like city electric a big supplier in VA, have they given you a price?

Wireandcableyourway was cheapest I found online, but the local supply house blew their prices away when I did my feed

 

[mm08822]

As stated #4 is not 4/0.

Figure out your loads first. Sounds like you unknowingly just want to bury a lot $$$$ in the ground! Using a shredder takes less effort and you can do that sitting in recliner drinking a beer.

Any idea what the actual draw is currently from your house?

 

[mm08822]

I think 4/0 MHF is typically rated at 200A. At 170' I think you should look for an industrial cable supplier (most will happily cut that length). I tend to agree with mm08822 400A is a LOT of juice. I run our house and shop on 100A and only one machine ever makes me look at other loads and even then only when I am running it to extreme load. Before you do anything best to hook up with an electrician to keep you on track and within codes.

Only exception for that is as residential service conductors. Feeding his barn/shop isn't the same. Otherwise only good for ~180A @75C.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Wireandcableyourway.com is pretty for delivered price.

#4 copper or aluminum will not support 200a at any distance.

Go back and figure your loads. I highly doubt you need 400a and 200a is probably good enough for both combined.

Yep !

A one man shop can typically get by on 60A. If you are a power hog, (typical GJ overkill) go 90A. The feed to your shop does NOT need to match the "main" breaker on the sub-panel. The important thing is the breaker in you "main panel" needs to match the wire !

 

[sweetk30]

I have a 1,800 sqft shop and 50amp mig wlder . 30amp plasma . 25 & 23 amp air compressors . And 22amp 2post lift . On top of lights fans and paint booth exhaust fan . 100 amp does just fine off my 200 amp house box . 10 years now at this place . Was this way when i moved in and been that way for years . But mine is buried in grey conduit is all .

 

[Innovate1]

Like others here, I really question if you need that big of feed. But you didn't provide any info on size of shop or house. Still 400A would supply a small army. Of course you are welcome to do overkill - it's your place. But unless you have a humongous house 400 amp is not needed. And for a one man shop 60A is probably plenty - 90A if you think you might need more. You might want to just run the shop feeder and see if you ever have issues with the existing house 200A. I'm guessing you will never need to upgrade the service.

 

[T444e]

I know a 60A service to a shop is the typical recommendation. I have a shop with a 200A service, but I'm curious if a 60A service would handle a 50A plasma cutter with a 5 hp air compressor. Most likely the the air compressor would start while using the plasma cutter.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

is the plasma cutter actually pulling 50a?

 

[T444e]

Just checked the specs, they call for a 50A circuit, but 230V/32A input current. I have a transformer welder that calls for a 45A circuit that I run in a 30A circuit and never tripped the breaker, but I don't stick weld at 250A. I have TIG welded at 225A, but that is an inverter machine.

 

[mike93lx]

Just checked the specs, they call for a 50A circuit, but 230V/32A input current. I have a transformer welder that calls for a 45A circuit that I run in a 30A circuit and never tripped the breaker, but I don't stick weld at 250A. I have TIG welded at 225A, but that is an inverter machine.

Running amps on the compressor would be in the low 20 amps. So yes, a 60 should run it and handle the startup peak as it's very short

Plasma cutting with hvac running is about the peak that a single person shop would use

 

[T444e]

If i remember correctly, it's 22A running. I'm just asking the question as 60A is the typical recommendation, but it seems to me it may be cutting it close with equipment the typical GJ member may have.

 

[mike93lx]

If i remember correctly, it's 22A running. I'm just asking the question as 60A is the typical recommendation, but it seems to me it may be cutting it close with equipment the typical GJ member may have.

In many/most cases, the recommendation is to run #2 and a 60a breaker as both are a sweet spot for cost. That could go up to 90a.

But 60a is a pretty safe bet to work fine

 

[Stuart in MN]

As much as I prefer buying locally, chances are the prices at Lowes or other big box stores in your area are going to be competitive. Wire is expensive, no way around that.

 

[PCustoms]

As much as I prefer buying locally, chances are the prices at Lowes or other big box stores in your area are going to be competitive. Wire is expensive, no way around that.

I've yet to see lowes/home depot be competitive on wire beyond NM-B

They just aren't moving the volumes on spooled thhn, MHF, xhhw etc to the average homeowner to drive the price low.

 

[sweetk30]

Note to the OP @robb1887 . . . IF DIGGING TRENCH for the wire . . . Also do one for water line .

My shop got every option nat gas / phone / cable tv / 100amp . . . And NO DAM WATER

And they built this shop for automotive and body work with paint bay

I have a 3 season water line now with a 125ft garden hose in the ground .

 

[75gmck25]

Very common sub-panel solution is to use dual rated 2-2-2-4 AL MHF (not 2/0) and a max of a 90 amp breaker in the main panel. There is a lot of that size MHF sold, so it's usually a reasonable price. I used a 60 amp breaker because it was easy to find in stock. My garage sub-panel is a 24 space 100 amp QO panel, so I can use the same breakers as my main panel. Sub-panel main is only a disconnect, since current is limited by the breaker at the main panel.

You can direct bury MHF (not my recommended solution) or run it in conduit. However, MHF must also be in conduit inside the building, so plan to make that full connection panel-panel, or add a J-box and transition to AL SER to run across inside the building(s).

My main panel is on the front of my house and the detached garage is behind the house. I ran SER from the main panel across the basement to a 12x12 junction box on the back wall of the basement. I then transitioned to MHF in conduit to run through the wall, underground, and up to the sub-panel. I located the sub-panel and the underground line so that the conduit came up the outside wall, into the garage, and then up to the bottom of the sub-panel. A little challenging to get MHF through 2" LB's and make the turns, but it turned out great.

Use long sweeps for conduit direction changes underground, and make sure all the underground conduit connections go the same way. Pulling across a connection the "right" way is easy, but going the other way it always wants to catch on the lip where they connect.

As already mentioned, when trenching you should plan for future needs. I only ran a separate conduit for low-voltage wiring (cable and Cat 6), but running pipe for future gas and water connections also a good idea.

 

[Innovate1]

I would do 1" conduit minimum for the low voltage conduit. That's big enough for optical fiber terminations. Go fiber rather than cable to eliminate the change for lightening damage due to differences in ground potential during storms. Been there and fried some network equipment before I switched to fiber.

 

[alfredeneuman]

My shop got every option nat gas / phone / cable tv / 100amp . . . And NO DAM WATER

What about the drain line?

 

[sweetk30]

What about the drain line?

Drain for reg sewer ? . . No bathroom out there . But sure would be nice for garden hose . And back in the day they were hauling 5gal buckets out when doing body work wet sanding vehicles and wet floor before paint . . I have a sink outside just for my hands to wash . I let the water flow in the flower bed is all .

 

[robb1887]

I need to update my setting to get notifications. Sorry for ghosting my own thread.

Shop is 28x40 with second story 20x40 space. 1120 sq ft total with 12ft down and 8ft (max) with 10/12 pitched roof. Will be fully insulated, drywalled, and air sealed to max possible.

Largest electric load I could run with current expectations would be the upper and lower mini splits, plasma (hypertherm 40), air compressor and air dryer if all kicked on at the same time with the standard aux (lighting, music, mini fridge etc).

I'm still waiting for my HVAC tech to finalize my HVAC sizing but I suspect a 3ton lower and 1.5 (maybe 2) upper.

Future expansion may have CNC machines (lathe/mill) but could be planned accordingly to not run at the same time.

If I can get away with a 100A breaker in the main and run that feeder to the shop, that would save a lot of headaches.

House is 2600sqft, 3ton gas pack lower and 2ton heat pump upper with typical 4bedroom home auxiliary. I do not know my current home draw. I assume I'd need a Fluke meter to figure that out?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I do not know my current home draw. I assume I'd need a Fluke meter to figure that out?

No you dont need a meter for that. You need a load calc sheet. Mike holt has a good one.

 

[mm08822]

Provide some info on the house loads......heat, stove, dryer, ac, hot water heater, hot tub, other potentially big stuff.

What is the main panel equipment in the house now? Mfr, service size, # of spare slots.

It can probably take a 125 amp 2 pole cb as a max size cb. This could feed your garage if you really think you will ever draw anything near that amount. Typically that size cb can accept up to 2/0 (not #2) conductors.

 

[robb1887]

Provide some info on the house loads......heat, stove, dryer, ac, hot water heater, hot tub, other potentially big stuff.

What is the main panel equipment in the house now? Mfr, service size, # of spare slots.

It can probably take a 125 amp 2 pole cb as a max size cb. This could feed your garage if you really think you will ever draw anything near that amount. Typically that size cb can accept up to 2/0 (not #2) conductors.

House panel is full, but a few of those circuits will free up once the shop is move in ready. The plasma, and 220 air compressor circuits as well as a retired in place electric stove would be available I'll pull the cover and see service size.

Gas downstairs heat 3ton heat pump cooling
2ton heat pump upper heat and AC
House is ~2600sqft but has quite a bit of vaulted ceilings
Gas stove and water heater
Electric dryer
No hot tub (ever)
EV charger in the house garage is a likely added circuit later
Anything else big moves to the shop, plasma/welder and air compressor

 

[mm08822]

Can't you read the rating of the main cb?

SWAG'n it with a large EVSE and with everything else running, you're 100A. Under 50A w/o EVSE. That leaves plenty of room for 100-125A feeder to garage if the house panel is 200A.

 

[robb1887]

Can't you read the rating of the main cb?

Likely a fault of my misunderstanding of termonology again here. The main cb is 200A in the house, yes.

I was thinking the "service size" question was asking cable size feeding the main panel

 

[Volcom]

Wireandcableyourway.com is pretty good for delivered price.

I used them as well and they shorted me about 10 ft. I gave myself about 10 ft extra on a long main run to my shop and had maybe 2 foot left over. So make sure they give you the correct amount before you pull it through your conduit or bury it.

 

[robb1887]

I'm going to RQF from a local supply house some MHF.

From the feedback here, a 125A 2-pole CB and a 2/0 wire will meet/exceed my needs.

Looking at the options for 2/0 MHF there is 2/0-2/0-2/0-1 or 2/0-2/0-1-4

I am guessing the 2/0-2/0-2/0-1 is what I should run? I'm not as savvy on residential wire sizing for feeds.

Plan to direct bury the majority of the run with some sections under the driveway and the above ground bits in conduit.

Thanks for the help.

 

[mike93lx]

I'd run the reduced neutral wire set. There's no chance you would ever have enough 120v on one leg to overload the neutral

 

[sparky 1971]

I'd run the reduced neutral wire set. There's no chance you would ever have enough 120v on one leg to overload the neutral

True dat.