Shop Lighting/Layout Review Advice

[Montyx5]

I first would like to say hello and thank you for any advice and suggestions that comes my way.

My new dream shop is roughly 60X64 ft. with 16ft. walls and the trusses used have a 1:12 pitch from walls to center of building. The building’s interior is finished with white ribbed metal panels on walls and ceiling. Shop uses include auto mechanical/body/painting work and metal welding and fabrication.

I am leaning toward using Greentek Energy Systems 110w LED Linear High Bay fixtures. A 4x7 layout with 15x8 ft. spacing is showing 103fc @ 2.5ft work plane using Acuity Brands Visual Interior light planning tool and a diva 110w fixture IES file since the Greentek fixture’s file is not readily available. The lumens are lower on the Diva fixtures therefore I should see slightly more light with the Greentek fixture. I would also like to note that there are seven trusses spanning the interior limiting mounting positions for the lights. This layout appears to work out great for my lift position.

Any input on the light fixture and/or layout? Anyone have any experience with these fixtures or the supplier that is linked?

 

[cybrdyke]

UL481307 is from James Industry, so Greentek didn't make it.
I have a very low opinion of James products and their business practices.
But that's my 2c.
Other than that, the rated life on this fixture is only 50,000 hours, and according to their data, that's a full life rating, not an L70 rating. You can find fixtures that have L70 ratings of over 200,000 hours.
All in all, this fixture is in the category of the lowest quality, cheapest price. If that's OK with you, then carry on.
CD

 

[Platonic Solid]

The above linked Greentek fixture has current and valid UL and DLC files. DLC Premium to be more accurate which means it has L70 rating of ≥50,000 hrs. Yes it's a budget fixture made in China like all the other budget fixtures. Likely better than the overpriced Lithonia equivalents.

 

[Montyx5]

Platonic Solid, I am considering one alternative general lighting layout that includes an additional light fixture centered in front of the lift, located on the truss closest to the back wall. This would help with working under the hood of a vehicle as well as this is the area where a majority of off vehicle component repair would occur. What are your thoughts on the the lighting layouts? Outside of the initial general lighting installation I am mindful of the potential need to add task lighting as the shop area evolves.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Montyx5 - Your lift is rather inconveniently located. I assume it can't be moved. I would tend to do a 5x5 layout 12'x12'10" spacing and relocate the lift to be in between the fixtures if possible. This gives you 88fc @ 30" workplane using 16,400 lumen fixture. The fixtures are only ~12 lbs. so they shouldn't need to be hung directly from the trusses - rivnuts in your metal ceiling should suffice. Your fixture selection is fine.

 

[cybrdyke]

... DLC Premium to be more accurate which means it has L70 rating of ≥50,000 hrs.

Yes. They would have to meet that criteria to get the DLC Premium qualification. But they dont mention any of that in their spec sheets, in fact, they only post the DLC listed logo, not the Premium logo. A sure sign of an low-information internet seller.

I agree that the name brand stuff is over priced, but it also outperforms this cheap stuff by a looooong shot.
Out of the box the low cost product and the name brand product look similar:
Greentek 16,000 lumens = 110 watts (145 lpw)
Lithonia IBG 18,000 lumens = 112 watts. (160 lpw)

But over time, the cheap product drops off quickly while the better product keeps it's output twice as long:
Greentek loses 30% output after 50,000 hours.
Lithonia loses 30% output after 100,000 hours.

Which results in a huge difference between the two:
After 50,000 hours of burn time, Greentek delivers 11,200 lumens (101 lpw)
After 60,000 hours of burn time, Lithonia delivers 15840 lumens. (141 lpw)

At this point, the owner of the Greentek will likely be looking at replacing lights which negates the initial savings.

The point is that there is a big difference between the cheap internet stuff and the name brand stuff. Just using those two brands as an example. Mostly, the determining factor for a buyer is how many hours he intends to burn those lights. If you use the lights a few hours a day, then the low cost lights will likely last a very long time. If you run a business and burn them 8-12 hours each day, then the better lights might be a better choice.
CD

 

[Platonic Solid]

Let's be fair and compare apples to apples:

Lithonia: IBHST 18000LM SD080 MD OZ10 50K 80CRI

Light Output: 17255.4 Im
Wattage: 139.6 W
Efficacy: 123.61 lm/W
Power Factor: 0.92
CCT: 5000 K
CRI: 80
Total Harmonic Distortion: 17.68 %

DLC Classification: Standard
5 year warranty

Above fixture available only through distribution for $400+ ea.

If you search online you'll see Lithonia makes what I'll call "consumer grade bait and switch" versions of the same products that have the same IBH series name and similar part number structures, but many lack DLC Classification, lack "OZ" (Osram) driver, have 70CRI, ~100 L/W. All this and you can buy Lithonias consumer grade 11200 lumen 125W 70CRI POS at HD for $143 (link) ($159 for less than Qty.8)


GreenTek: GT-H2-110W XDZ 5000K $85 (link)
GreenTek fixture is rebranded James Industry fixture
James Industry: ZY-H2-110W $95 (link)

Light Output: 16406 Im
Wattage: 110.1 W
Efficacy: 149 lm/W
Power Factor: 0.9
CCT: 5000 K
CRI: 84.5
Total Harmonic Distortion: 20 %

DLC Classification: Premium
5 year warranty

Even if these fixtures were ON 24-7, I'd still opt for the GreenTek/James fixtures.
Both have same 5 year warranty (which is less than 50,000 hrs.).

We can use DLC to validate the L70 50,000 hr. claims, but we have no independant authority verifying any L70 claim over 50,000 hrs. Low efficiency, like the consumer grade Lithonia fixtures, means more heat. More heat = reduced LED life. I'm more apt to believe that the 149 lm/W GreenTek/James fixtures are >50,000 hrs. than I am to believe the Lithonia @ ~100 lm/W is 100,000 hrs. just because they say so in their sales spec sheet.

 

[cybrdyke]

Let's be fair and compare apples to apples:
That's hardly apples to apples...this comparison is more like Rolls Royce to Yugo.

Lithonia: IBHST 18000LM SD080 MD OZ10 50K 80CRIThe standard grade product from Lithonia is IBG, in this example, it IBG18L-**

Light Output: 17255.4 Im 17,329 lm
Wattage: 139.6 W 114 W
Efficacy: 123.61 lm/W 152 lm/W
Power Factor: 0.92 High
CCT: 5000 K 5000K
CRI: 80 80
Total Harmonic Distortion: 17.68 %

DLC Classification: Standard Premium
5 year warranty 5 Year

Above fixture available only through distribution for $400+ ea.
The IBG is more commonly stocked at distribution and routinely sells for $200-$225

If you search online you'll see Lithonia makes what I'll call "consumer grade bait and switch" versions of the same products that have the same IBH series name and similar part number structures, but many lack DLC Classification, lack "OZ" (Osram) driver, have 70CRI, ~100 L/W. All this and you can buy Lithonias consumer grade 11200 lumen 125W 70CRI POS at HD for $143 (link) ($159 for less than Qty.8)


GreenTek: GT-H2-110W XDZ 5000K $85 (link)
GreenTek fixture is rebranded James Industry fixture
James Industry: ZY-H2-110W $95 (link)

Light Output: 16406 Im
Wattage: 110.1 W
Efficacy: 149 lm/W
Power Factor: 0.9
CCT: 5000 K
CRI: 84.5
Total Harmonic Distortion: 20 %

DLC Classification: Premium
5 year warranty
The James fixture loses on nearly every electrical spec to even the most common contractor grade products from name brand products.

Even if these fixtures were ON 24-7, I'd still opt for the GreenTek/James fixtures.
Both have same 5 year warranty (which is less than 50,000 hrs.).

We can use DLC to validate the L70 50,000 hr. claims, but we have no independant authority verifying any L70 claim over 50,0000 hrs.Nonsense. Major manufacturers are using TM21 guidelines to determine these results. Better thermals, better diodes, better driver technology improves diode drop off considerably. The cheap internet manufacturers dont run these tests, either because they are afraid of the results or because they cant afford to. Low efficiency, like the consumer grade Lithonia fixtures, means more heat. More heat = reduced LED life. The Lithonia IBG is More efficient than the James.I'm more apt to believe that the 149 lm/W GreenTek/James fixtures are >50,000 hrs. than I am to believe the Lithonia @ ~100 lm/W is 100,000 hrs. just because they say so in their sales spec sheet.I'm more apt to believe a real company that actually MAKES luminaires (for the last several decades), and actually does real life testing, than some shady internet seller. I'm also more apt to believe that the cheap fixture drops off steeply from the minute they are turned on, which is another piece of information conveniently left off their spec sheet.

Again, not a huge fan of Lithonia, but just using their product as an example. Let's not kid anyone. There are very real differences in the quality of professional commercial fixtures vs. internet DIY fixtures like the James. Whether your typical Garage Journal consumer sees value in those differences or not is up to them.
CD

 

[Platonic Solid]

The problem with Lithonia is they sell both the Rolls Royce and the Yugo under the same name. The customer has to do some extraordinary detective research to avoid paying Rolls Royce pricing for a Yugo.

I actually like their IBG 15L MVOLT 5K fixture:

Light Output: 14990.1 Im
Wattage: 95.25 W
Efficacy: 157.38 lm/W
Power Factor: 0.9
CCT: 5000 K
CRI: 80
Total Harmonic Distortion: 20%

At $215 ea. (link) I doubt the average Garage Journal type consumer is willing to more than doulbe their lighting budget.

 

[Montyx5]

Platonic Solid
The lift location is locked in due to the provisions in concrete slab, hydronic floor tube routing and the electrical conduit stubbed in the concrete at that location (red circle in pic). I didn't mention the overhead doors located on front of the building that stop 12-15 in. short of the first truss when in the full open position. Normally I just leave them high enough to walk under safely when left open. Other considerations with the lights mounted to the metal is in addition to the fixture weight there is insulation blown in to consider giving a potential for some slight sagging when mounted near center of two trusses. Also, should I find myself needing to use a natural disaster warranty that came with the building, the potential for them to decline ceiling repair costs is likely if they are not mounted to the trusses.

With these considerations a 7x4 layout appears to be the better option. Other than not being an ideal layout, do you see any serious flaws in this layout or see another option that would be better?

Cybrdyke
While I am not necessarily looking for the cheapest fixture for my needs, I do look at the alternative cost closely. When looking at the service life of > 50k hours, I see it this way. I will almost certainly be using some of lights anytime I am in the shop as I like to keep the doors closed as much as possible. The reason for this is I do a lot of welding and having little gnats and other fling insects diving into my welds is not acceptable in most cases, halting my progress when they are present and driving me crazy. Taking the scenario of a 10-hour day, 7 days a week brings me to 50k/10/365=13.7 years. Considering that I will not be using them all at once very often or using the shop that rigorously and the use of dimmers will increase this time estimate. Now let’s say I get 12 years average life from them, the money I save in not investing in higher quality fixtures is already in investments that have yielded more than 100% year over year. Conservatively I will use a savings of $100/fixture which brings me to $2800 and over 12 years brings a return of almost $11.5k. From this financial point of view, I would be better off using the Greentek or other lower quality light fixtures over higher quality ones. I would also like to point out that both fixtures have a 5-year warranty and that is the only thing that can be solidly considered. What I mean by this is, if a 5-year warrantied light fixture fails at 62 months it does not matter if it is a 50k, 100k or 200k hour fixture. I also believe that in 12 years that it is likely that these fixtures will be outdated and viewed as a waste of energy due to technological advances.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Montyx5 - Suggest 16'x8' spacing for your 4x7 layout to even out illumination. The GreenTek/James fixture is not available with surface mounting brackets. It comes with hangers and chains. Thus fixtures will likely end up at 15' to 15.5' mounting height. Dialux shows 100fc AVG @ 30" workplane with 15.5' mounting.

If you want surface mount, you'll have to go with the 14,410 lm Alphlite $91.25. You'll need to call them to get the $15 surface mount bracket adder which puts total fixture price at $106.25. This yields 88fc @ workplane (4x7 16'x8' surface mounted layout)

 

[Montyx5]

Platonic Solid
Thank you. I appreciate your help in improving the layout efficiency. I will use the 16'x8' spacing and chain mount as close to the ceiling as possible that still allows easy installation, to limit swaying on windy days (very windy location here). I will follow up with installation of the lighting fixtures.

Cybrdyke
Thank you for the information and suggestions. It was helpful in knowing that I had not missed some of lighting option currently available and insight on the fixture I proposed using.

 

[cybrdyke]

Cybrdyke
Thank you for the information and suggestions. It was helpful in knowing that I had not missed some of lighting option currently available and insight on the fixture I proposed using.

Your welcome. That's what forums are for...to make sure you have ALL the information so that you can make the best choice for your situation.

 

[cybrdyke]

Cybrdyke
While I am not necessarily looking for the cheapest fixture for my needs, I do look at the alternative cost closely. When looking at the service life of > 50k hours, I see it this way. I will almost certainly be using some of lights anytime I am in the shop as I like to keep the doors closed as much as possible. The reason for this is I do a lot of welding and having little gnats and other fling insects diving into my welds is not acceptable in most cases, halting my progress when they are present and driving me crazy. Taking the scenario of a 10-hour day, 7 days a week brings me to 50k/10/365=13.7 years. Considering that I will not be using them all at once very often or using the shop that rigorously and the use of dimmers will increase this time estimate. Now let’s say I get 12 years average life from them, the money I save in not investing in higher quality fixtures is already in investments that have yielded more than 100% year over year. Conservatively I will use a savings of $100/fixture which brings me to $2800 and over 12 years brings a return of almost $11.5k. From this financial point of view, I would be better off using the Greentek or other lower quality light fixtures over higher quality ones. I would also like to point out that both fixtures have a 5-year warranty and that is the only thing that can be solidly considered. What I mean by this is, if a 5-year warrantied light fixture fails at 62 months it does not matter if it is a 50k, 100k or 200k hour fixture. I also believe that in 12 years that it is likely that these fixtures will be outdated and viewed as a waste of energy due to technological advances.

Well thought out.
All I will add is the difference in light output over time. The low cost fixtures will drop off steeply once you fire them up. The manufacturers wont give you this information like the brand name manufacturers will.
So, when you are designing your layout for 100fc, you really need to design it for 125fc -ish to allow for the dropoff. This means more fixtures initially and more cost up front.

Hats off to you for taking time to explore the details...
CD

 

[GRB]

Light drop off over time is ignored by many. They replace old, old, old florescents with new LED and think they have gained light when cleaning the fixtures and replacing the bulbs would have been a big improvement.

During my reconfiguration of one warehouse, I bought 4 of the Feit shoplights that Costco was putting on sale. Feit says they are 38watts and 3700 lumens. They measure 115fc directly below vs the single T-12 that gave 72fc directly below. The problem is that the T-12 gave the same light to the side and bounced light off the ceiling giving much more USABLE light. After 2 years of 60 hour/week use, the Feits are at 90fc directly below and 40 to the side. Clearly going to hit the trash can in a couple years.
In my case, I suspected they were a temporary solution. I just need to get motivated and install the permanent solution.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Interesting read. Funny how two guys with nearly identical core opinions can take such different stances. Please do it some more. ( I did kill an hour googling around to figure what the hell you were talking about.)

The prices mentioned are much better than Home Depot or the local Electrical Supply. The selection is better on the internet. (Counter guy asked me "who cares about lumens per watt as long as the breaker doesn't trip? They're all the same wattage.") All the lights discussed are far better than mercury vapor or HPS I used to work under.

I suspect the next five years will see most of the improvement that happens in the next twenty as far as lighting improvements go. When I am ready, better quality will be commonly available. Ten or fifteen years without replacing bulbs or fixtures is fantastic! Granted, 20 years is better but 10 or 15 is damn good.

Op, 60 x 64 freespan is one helluva dream garage, shop, or warehouse. 16 ft sidewalls!

 

[Platonic Solid]

Lelandwelds - I actually agree with CD, but have to be realistic on what most people are willing to spend up front to light a workshop. It's hard enough discouraging people from installing 30 Feit shop lights. Most would be running toward giant screw base corncob bulbs if they thought the alternative was to pay $4000 for lighting.

Ironically the fixtures I make are the other end of the spectrum: L70 and MTBF over 350,000 hrs. (that's 40 years if left ON 24/7).

I would guess in the future we will be gutting these budget linear high bays and installing higher quality UL Type C retrofit kits (not tubes, but LED arrays with separate drivers).

 

[Lelandwelds]

I

. Funny how two guys with nearly identical core opinions can take such different stances.

Lelandwelds - I actually agree with CD, I have read a high percentage oF posts from bothof you but have to be realistic on what most people are willing to spend up front to light a workshop. It's hard enough discouraging people from installing 30 Feit shop lights. Most would be running toward giant screw base corncob bulbs if they thought the alternative was to pay $4000 for lighting. I am jealous of the patience you display in those threads

Ironically the fixtures I make are the other end of the spectrum: L70 and MTBF over 350,000 hrs. (that's 40 years if left ON 24/7).

I would guess in the future we will be gutting these budget linear high bays and installing higher quality UL Type C retrofit kits (not tubes, but LED arrays with separate drivers).
I suspect the future best option will be tightly integrated like an improved flat panel and simply thrown away two or three times a century.

I started out wanting to install a couple dozen 12 watt cans @ 16 feet. These "budget high bays" are better than anything I have ever seen. It's exciting stuff.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I suspect the future best option will be tightly integrated like an improved flat panel and simply thrown away two or three times a century.

A little farther into the future and lighting will be something you paint on. It's not as far fetched as it sounds. I hope to be retired by then as I'll be out of business.

 

[cybrdyke]

A little farther into the future and lighting will be something you paint on. It's not as far fetched as it sounds. I hope to be retired by then as I'll be out of business.

Already exists.

CD

 

[Platonic Solid]

Already exists.

CD

Exactly. It just doesn't have the output necessary for general lighting . . . yet.

In the near term I'd like to see more POE options.