Shop power - WI

[Sam_i_am]

I am a new member here. I am not an electrician! After researching and reading far too many posts concerning the matter of what can and cannot be done in the matter of running power lines to a detached shop. Starting from scratch on this project, my first concern is the necessity (OR) not, of having to install an additional power meter for this purpose. Hoping to find someone with knowledge of local laws, regulation and statues.

GREEN COUNTY, WISCONSIN - Washington township

Sam

 

[Innovate1]

You likely don't need another meter. We need some more detail. Do you have another building nearby with power? How big is the panel (amps)? How far between buildings? How many amps do you want in the detached building? do you plan to run power underground or overhead? Do you plan to do the work yourself? any other details you can share?

Local rules you may have to check out yourself. These vary from place to place so unless there is someone in your area we won't know.

 

[Sam_i_am]

Hi Innovate1, thanks for the reply!

Do you have another building nearby with power? Yes. This is a farm property setting with no animals, heavy electrical equipment or other farm related operations, just an old farmhouse in the country ..... with a 40' x 35' on location shop.

From an electrical stand point there is some weird stuff going on here, but won't get into that at this time.

I took the picture from a window towards the rear of the house. The overhead power lines are brought in from across the street to a power line pole, as seen pictured, the pole is to the right. House power meter is mounted on the pole, lines to the house are buried, approximately 60ft.

How big is the panel (amps)? 200 amp service at the box, plenty of empty breaker spaces.

How far between buildings? 60ft from pole to house. 100ft from pole to shop. 160ft from house to shop.

How many amps do you want in the detached building? 220v compressor, 110v 30A mig, 220v stick welder, 110v overhead propane fired heater, 200 watt security light and many smaller electrical shop tools ......... sounds like maybe 100 amp service?

do you plan to run power underground or overhead? I would like to run under surface lines, especially if they want me to put another pole up at the shop!

Do you plan to do the work yourself? Yes. As much as possible. Although I claim to be more of a mechanic than an electrical engineer, I do plan on doing my share of the work in a safe and lawful manner. But as we all know, there is always the "inspector" to approve the work.

Thanks again, your interests are appreciated -

Sam

 

[mike93lx]

Seems like the perfect candidate for #2 MHF and a 90a breaker to feed it. Tons of posts regarding this combo are on this board

 

[Sam_i_am]

I do have 2 new breaker boxes collected over the past couple of years. One of which is an outdoor 200 amp box Murray LW200VRU, and the other is a square D 200 amp box HOM3040M200RBVP .........

note: there is an older breaker box mounted to the pole containing a single 30 amp breaker for the property water pump / well. This should be wired to the house box and we will be addressing this at the same time we run the power to the shop.

 

[mike93lx]

I do have 2 new breaker boxes collected over the past couple of years. One of which is an outdoor 200 amp box Murray LW200VRU, and the other is a square D 200 amp box HOM3040M200RBVP .........

note: there is an older breaker box mounted to the pole containing a single 30 amp breaker for the property water pump / well. This should be wired to the house box and we will be addressing this at the same time we run the power to the shop.

A box larger than the feeder's rating is fine, so you can run the 90a feed I mentioned and use one of those 200a panels.

Why move the well pump breaker?

 

[Sam_i_am]

Hi Mike, thanks for your input.

When we purchased the home late in Sept. 2019 there was a lock on that breaker box! When the inspector showed up he said we can not have the lock on the box so we had to remove it. Its a funny thing ......... if I never knew the lock was installed, I wouldn't have paid any attention to it ..... but knowing that anyone can just throw the breaker, turning off the water supply to the property was a turn off, especially considering the house has an auto fill steam boiling heating system

 

[dcg9381]

In most cases, you don't need a new meter. The cases where you need a new meter, you might have a small main on the house (100a) or the physical distance between the house and the shop is prohibitive or when you don't have two slots available at the house main.. 160 feet is totally doable.

What I'd probably do if you're not familiar with electrical is run a 2" gray PVC pipe between the house and shop, install a pull string. IE - do the manual labor for your electrician.

Many of us use #2 MHF and a 90a breaker - it's known as the most economical way to provide quite a bit of power.

 

[Innovate1]

If you have a breaker panel at the pole with empty spaces it sounds like you just need to run wire from there to the barn. #2 MHF or other aluminum wire is good for a max of 90A for the feeding breaker. Sounds like 60A may be enough for your use - that's something you will have to determine based on use and possible future use. You could use a 200A panel in the barn as the feeding breaker limits current. You will need two ground rods at the barn. You could go to #1 XHHW if you really want 100A but it requires conduit so may not be worth the trouble. Some people prefer conduit as it allows changing out the conductors if needed (hardly ever is) and gives some additional protection for the wire.

You should check with the local AHJ (Authority having Jurisdiction) whoever issues permits) to see what they require for the work.

 

[Bert_]

Post a better picture of where you want to come off the meter pole. Kind of looks like a pole top switch with a ct meter.

 

[Sam_i_am]

Guys, I can't thank you enough for all input. I think, but not certain (and this something I'd rather not face if true) is that anything coming from the pole to the shop would need a meter at the shop, anything coming from the house to the shop would not require an additional meter. The real problem with having a meter at the shop is the power Co. would need $25.00 a month user fee even if no power is used. And yes, I'm a cheap skate.

Innovate, the breaker box for the well pump is a single space design I believe but will check.

Bert, will try to get some pics later tonight.

Thanks again guys -

Sam

 

[mike93lx]

I think, but not certain (and this something I'd rather not face if true) is that anything coming from the pole to the shop would need a meter at the shop, anything coming from the house to the shop would not require an additional meter.

Correct

 

[Sam_i_am]

Thanks Mike, your such a good little bomb dropper! That's the kind of realization I didn't want to hear.

Not that it will change anything at this point, but I have some photos of the house power pole I would like to post.

Would there be a way to run power to the shop from the existing breaker box already mounted and metered at the pole.

Photos forthcoming.

 

[mike93lx]

Thanks Mike, your such a good little bomb dropper! That's the kind of realization I didn't want to hear.

Not that it will change anything at this point, but I have some photos of the house power pole I would like to post.

Would there be a way to run power to the shop from the existing breaker box already mounted and metered at the pole.

Photos forthcoming.

Yes, if you move the well breaker to the house, you should be able to use that breaker for the shop. If you don't want to move the well, you could possibly add a sub and feed the well and shop off that

Pictures will help a lot

 

[Sam_i_am]

I was completely wrong about the well pump breaker box configuration. Photo's attached.

Any and all suggestions very much appreciated.

Sam

 

[mike93lx]

Use two of those spaces for a breaker to feed the shop.

 

[Bert_]

Looks pretty normal. Could add a breaker for the shop easy. Don't really get why they put in the 200a box. House probably could have tied right in at the pole top, shed could too if you wanted

The rust color box probably has the generator hookup for the pole top

 

[Sam_i_am]

I'm seeing most if not all MHF is quadplex conductor where as URD triplex is plentiful at reasonable prices. Should this project be considered a 4 conductor install or would 3 conductor work?

 

[ipgenie]

4 conductor for all subpanels, Hot Hot Neutral Ground

 

[Sam_i_am]

OK, thanks Ipgenie. Good to know, I'll remember that!

 

[sparky 1971]

I'm seeing most if not all MHF is quadplex conductor where as URD triplex is plentiful at reasonable prices. Should this project be considered a 4 conductor install or would 3 conductor work?

I'm late to the party as usual. It has to be a four conductor install. You could use URD and throw a #4 USE in the ditch for a ground, but standard URD isn't allowed inside a building. There is a dual rated URD available that can be installed inside, so that might be worth checking into. The supply house I use only carries the dual rated, but that means absolutely nothing for your purpose.

I am also going to add that MHF is a helluva lot easier to work with than URD.

 

[Sam_i_am]

Roger that sparky. Thanks for the info. Good thing about being late to the party is we'll always find room for ya at the bar!

I believe I will keep the install as simple as possible, so will go with 4 conductor MHF !

Unbelievable how impressive the amount of info I have discovered since joining this forum.

Keep up the good work. Your welcome to this party anytime. Thanks again.

 

[mike93lx]

The mhf does need to be in conduit above ground...it can't be left exposed like SER or NM-b. If you have aong stretch above ground in a spot that isn't at risk of damage, it may be worth transitioning to SER using a large junction box so that you don't have to use a lot of conduit .

You also need two ground rods, at least 6 feet apart, at the outbuilding

 

[Sam_i_am]

If I gotta go from that existing box on the pole to shop, I suppose I'm good with that given all known circumstances. I am however somewhat disappointed in the overall layout and cobbled mess of the electrical state of the property, as most of these old farmhouses are. I must also say that the inspector we hired to "inspect" the property dropped the ball. The house was marketed by the selling agent and pitched in person with the assumption of the house having "200 amp service" ........... now that I'm really thinking about it I'M PISSED! See below for why. With that said I'll stop my little tantrum and get on with it. mike, and others, please check out the following statements and please let me know of any of the it-shay sticks.

Assumption 1: power from the pole came into the house at a 200amp service breaker box in the basement -
Realization: power from the pole feeds the 100amp breaker box mounted on the pole

Assumption 2: power from the breaker box in the house basement feeds the breaker box mounted on the pole and thus supplies power to the circuit breaker for the well pump -
Realization: power from the pole feeds the breaker box mounted on the pole, providing power to: 100amp (circuit breaker) power to the house and 30amp (circuit breaker) power to the well pump

Assumption 3: I could dig up the well pump cable between the pole and the house and load a circuit breaker in the house breaker box and go directly to the pump, from the house. Replace breaker box at the pole with Murray LW200VRU breaker box and feed the shop.
Realization: Didn't know power is feeding the house through box on the pole, so can't do assumption 3

There's more but why? Lets look on the bright side ....... and show a positive attitude -

Am I correct in assuming?

If I'm going to feed the shop from the breaker box mounted on the pole I have 70 amps of available service, using 4 spaces in the box.

Can I load this breaker box with 2 double pole circuit breakers to feed the shop?
Will the #2 MHF cabling fit the circuit breakers

I'm going to precisely measure the distance between the power pole and shop to put this it-shay to rest. I'm fairly certain local codes necessitate the installation of a pole at the structure for distances spanning greater than 100', as opposed to going from the power pole directly to the structure for distances less than 100'. I'll be going sub-surface regardless.

pics of the house basement breaker box attached.

Any other recommendations welcome

 

[ipgenie]

A 90A breaker will only use two slots on the 200A load center on the meter pole. Connect that 90A breaker to #2 MHF to feed the shop.

If you move the well to the house, you will reduce the avaliable amps at the house load center. Since the house only has a 100A feed, I'd leave the well where it is.

 

[mike93lx]

If I'm going to feed the shop from the breaker box mounted on the pole I have 70 amps of available service, using 4 spaces in the box.

That's not how the sizing works. You can have more total amps in your circuit breakers than the feeder size.

Real capacity is done with a load calc and will depend on what is running at the same time

 

[Sam_i_am]

Looking up local codes for burial depth is a nightmare - !

So an inspector would not have a problem with circuit breakers totaling 220 amps with a 200amp main on the box?

Measured distance from the power pole to the outbuilding and its right at 145', plus from below ground up to the boxes on each end ..... Where we sitt'in for loss with this length?

How deep do the cables have to be buried?

 

[Norcal]

Looking up local codes for burial depth is a nightmare - !

So an inspector would not have a problem with circuit breakers totaling 220 amps with a 200amp main on the box?

Measured distance from the power pole to the outbuilding and its right at 145', plus from below ground up to the boxes on each end ..... Where we sitt'in for loss with this length?

How deep do the cables have to be buried?

Load calculations are not accomplished by adding the total rating of circuit breakers.

 

[sparky 1971]

Looking up local codes for burial depth is a nightmare - !

24" for direct burial wire which MHF is, 18" if it's in conduit

So an inspector would not have a problem with circuit breakers totaling 220 amps with a 200amp main on the box?

Nope.

Measured distance from the power pole to the outbuilding and its right at 145', plus from below ground up to the boxes on each end ..... Where we sitt'in for loss with this length?

The length is getting up there, but it's not far enough to worry about with #2 wire

How deep do the cables have to be buried?

24" if you direct bury the cable. If you want to throw some money away, put it in PVC, then you can bury it 18".

 

[mike93lx]

Looking up local codes for burial depth is a nightmare - !

So an inspector would not have a problem with circuit breakers totaling 220 amps with a 200amp main on the box?

Measured distance from the power pole to the outbuilding and its right at 145', plus from below ground up to the boxes on each end ..... Where we sitt'in for loss with this length?

How deep do the cables have to be buried?

I have two 200a panels on a 320a service. One has 220a of breakers, the other has 260a (120v breaker counted at half their value). There is also a sub fed off one of those using a 60a breaker that has breakers in it totaling 110a.

It's completely normal for the breakers to total a higher value than the feeder.

What you connect to each circuit is generally well below its capacity

 

[Bert_]

If I gotta go from that existing box on the pole to shop, I suppose I'm good with that given all known circumstances. I am however somewhat disappointed in the overall layout and cobbled mess of the electrical state of the property, as most of these old farmhouses are. I must also say that the inspector we hired to "inspect" the property dropped the ball. The house was marketed by the selling agent and pitched in person with the assumption of the house having "200 amp service" ........... now that I'm really thinking about it I'M PISSED! See below for why. With that said I'll stop my little tantrum and get on with it. mike, and others, please check out the following statements and please let me know of any of the it-shay sticks.

Assumption 1: power from the pole came into the house at a 200amp service breaker box in the basement -
Realization: power from the pole feeds the 100amp breaker box mounted on the pole

Assumption 2: power from the breaker box in the house basement feeds the breaker box mounted on the pole and thus supplies power to the circuit breaker for the well pump -
Realization: power from the pole feeds the breaker box mounted on the pole, providing power to: 100amp (circuit breaker) power to the house and 30amp (circuit breaker) power to the well pump

Assumption 3: I could dig up the well pump cable between the pole and the house and load a circuit breaker in the house breaker box and go directly to the pump, from the house. Replace breaker box at the pole with Murray LW200VRU breaker box and feed the shop.
Realization: Didn't know power is feeding the house through box on the pole, so can't do assumption 3

There's more but why? Lets look on the bright side ....... and show a positive attitude -

Am I correct in assuming?

If I'm going to feed the shop from the breaker box mounted on the pole I have 70 amps of available service, using 4 spaces in the box.

Can I load this breaker box with 2 double pole circuit breakers to feed the shop?
Will the #2 MHF cabling fit the circuit breakers

I'm going to precisely measure the distance between the power pole and shop to put this it-shay to rest. I'm fairly certain local codes necessitate the installation of a pole at the structure for distances spanning greater than 100', as opposed to going from the power pole directly to the structure for distances less than 100'. I'll be going sub-surface regardless.

pics of the house basement breaker box attached.

Any other recommendations welcome

There's really no reason to be mad about any of the things you listed.

A 100A service is plenty for a majority of homes. Powering a well pump from a pole or another building is probably more common than powering it from the house, absolutely nothing wrong with that. Having a central meter on an acreage is way better than having the main at the house.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Post a better picture of where you want to come off the meter pole. Kind of looks like a pole top switch with a ct meter.

huh? did you miss the 200a main service panel that is back to back on the pole with the meter pan?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Correct

huh? why would he need another meter when he could just do a branch feeder off his main service panel?

 

[mike93lx]

huh? why would he need another meter when he could just do a branch feeder off his main service panel?

Gotta be honest here...a lot of your posts lately feel like you are just trying to argue. Maybe that's just my impression though.


I was looking at it as a fresh feed from the utility service. Nothing more than that. I've posted a couple other times in this thread that he can come from the panel at the pole without an issue. A mistake/misunderstanding in one post...not a big deal

 

[Bert_]

huh? did you miss the 200a main service panel that is back to back on the pole with the meter pan?

Look at post #15. Those pictures make it very clear what he has

 

[Innovate1]

Look at post #15. Those pictures make it very clear what he has

It clearly shows the 200A main. So adding a breaker to feed the shop is clear. The connection of the meter seems a bit strange to me with only a cable up the pole and then there is the mess-o-wires at the top. Not clear at all to me how the meter feeds the panel. And there seems to be a third box about the same level as the breaker panel and the meter. Not clear what that is.

As far as the adding a 90A breaker that isn't an issue. If you add up all the breakers in your house panel it is often way over the main breaker rating. They aren't all using max current at once and if they did (which is extremely unlikely, almost impossible) the main would provide protection so nothing bad would happen except a tripped breaker. Technically a load calc is done but it isn't done for residential very often as far as I can tell.

 

[Bert_]

It clearly shows the 200A main. So adding a breaker to feed the shop is clear. The connection of the meter seems a bit strange to me with only a cable up the pole and then there is the mess-o-wires at the top. Not clear at all to me how the meter feeds the panel. And there seems to be a third box about the same level as the breaker panel and the meter. Not clear what that is.

As far as the adding a 90A breaker that isn't an issue. If you add up all the breakers in your house panel it is often way over the main breaker rating. They aren't all using max current at once and if they did (which is extremely unlikely, almost impossible) the main would provide protection so nothing bad would happen except a tripped breaker. Technically a load calc is done but it isn't done for residential very often as far as I can tell.

The metering is done with the ct that's visible between the pole top and the transformer. The rust colored box most likely has a generator connection inside it.

 

[Sam_i_am]

I must have read this post from beginning to end 3 times. The direction of conversation definitely hit a fork in the road when I posted the pic of the breaker box mounted to the power pole. I should have gathered my information here at the property before joining and posting, it would have avoided much confusion, my apologies - this quote is no joke: "a picture paints a thousand words" -

OP will address, through AHJ, requirements for power meter and pole regulations.

Here's where I'm at: From an electrical standpoint: the power pole, breaker box mounted to the power pole, house breaker box, (and you haven't even seen the basement) is nothing short of giant circuit board of BS grandfathered in since the introduction of electricity.

Easiest and least expensive: Install 1 double pole 90amp breaker in power line pole breaker box, use #2 MHF from the box to the shop. Direct burial cable is fine BUT above ground MHF requires 2" pvc. Install breaker box in shop and must use 2 grounding rods at least 6ft. apart, with grounding straps. I'll research the size of the straps, depth and size of rods required.

Other options: Possibly increasing service amps to the house and / or shop. Regardless of difficulty and cost? (no additional power meter or pole!)

Will 100amp service suffice if central A/C installed? gas stove. electric dryer.

I would like to thank each of you for taking the time to post your thoughts on this matter, it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Sam_i_am]

Finally talked to an AHJ gentleman. No meter or pole required for this project.

Strangely enough he suggested URD as opposed to MHF. He seemed un-assured about the MHF being direct burial. Also, he was very specific in stating that URD can be used within building structures as long as the cabling did not extend in length in great distances.

I'm sticking with MHF for the reasons stated in this post.

 

[mike93lx]

Also, he was very specific in stating that URD can be used within building structures as long as the cabling did not extend in length in great distances.

He is wrong, unless it is dual rated. There is no exception for length.

Good call on MHF