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Shop Reputation & Screwups.... wheel torque best practices

OP
J

joetech

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
117
Location
Iowa
I might be your customer!

To the OP: Good on you for looking for advice. I had some screw-ups an an inexperienced tech and I had some close calls. I think the key is to do things in a certain way to make sure it's obvious you've forgotten something.

Good luck!

Thank you... that's pretty much what I'm figuring out.

Unfortunately I am no longer employed. I am contemplating my next move. I would really like to find a position working as a mechanic at a professional level. Somewhere where they have work orders and sign offs, as a general rule working on cars in your own bay instead of anywhere the car gets put, where I can establish a routine and get stuff done... hopefully with no or very few tires. I had been focusing on mechanic work as much as possible as I enjoy doing that.

The problem with where I am at is that there are no car dealers here in town and I'd have to drive at least 15 miles to a job out of town, if not 30 miles to a larger city.

There's also a factory here in town that's looking for mechanic help as well.
 
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barrybeefburger

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Messages
155
Location
North of the GTA, Ontario
I used to play around with series Landrovers, if you know anything about them is that they chassis will rust away, knowing this I bought a welder and with the help of night school and youtube I can weld, sooooo, Im too busy to do something myself so I take it to a local landrover indie shop, a few days later I get a call to say its done, I go get it and they see the welding etc long story short I can weld better than there guy and they offer me out of hrs welding work.

I only lasted a month, the **** I saw them pull on paying customers, no thanks, I try and do as much as possible, Ive seen "its only an oil change what can go wrong" first hand
 

Ign

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
12,769
Location
Butte Peak ND
My buddy worked at local WM tire while he was between other jobs.. said they made them torque all lugs BUT
1) the torque wrench was regularly abused/dropped etc
2) they NEVER returned it to zero. He said they finally yelled at him because they couldn't figure out why the TW was zero'd every morning, they had never done that before and considered it a waste of time
 

ngk22r

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
1,589
Location
AZ
Thank you... that's pretty much what I'm figuring out.

Unfortunately I am no longer employed. I am contemplating my next move. I would really like to find a position working as a mechanic at a professional level. Somewhere where they have work orders and sign offs, as a general rule working on cars in your own bay instead of anywhere the car gets put, where I can establish a routine and get stuff done... hopefully with no or very few tires. I had been focusing on mechanic work as much as possible as I enjoy doing that.

The problem with where I am at is that there are no car dealers here in town and I'd have to drive at least 15 miles to a job out of town, if not 30 miles to a larger city.

There's also a factory here in town that's looking for mechanic help as well.

I have to drive about 20/30 minutes one way to work but it is worth it. Look up the dealers and preferably look at a dealer where it is busy and a car line you like. If you like working on fullsize trucks and cars then you are looking at a domestic line. If you like cars and SUVs that have more logic put into them then you are looking at Honda or Toyota, no matter what stay away from Nissan!
 

MShaw

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
1,014
Location
York, Pa.
The last time I was in Sam's Club I watched them reinstall wheels. They used an impact wrench and let it hammer till the lug cried uncle. And then did the click click with a torque wrench. What they didn't know is that if the lug does not move when you torque it, it is over torqued and the click does not loosen the lug to spec. DUH!!!!!!!
 

anndel

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 28, 2015
Messages
3,270
Location
Hawaii, USA
I almost always do my own maintenace/repairs with the exception of tire rotatations/rebalance, wheel alignments and flat repairs. I get free rotations/balance at Costco and go to Lex Brodie's for wheel alignments and flat repairs. When I come back I check the torques and they are spot on.
 

Yarpo

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2017
Messages
1,356
Location
Minnesota
The problem with where I am at is that there are no car dealers here in town and I'd have to drive at least 15 miles to a job out of town, if not 30 miles to a larger city.

There's also a factory here in town that's looking for mechanic help as well.

Whats the problem, both of those are very reasonable commutes unless its 30 miles in rush hour everyday...even so I imagine 30 miles give or take is very standard.

I'm driving 36 miles to work, takes me 34 minutes each way but I'm going opposite traffic.

Many of the things done here (by multiple people) is why my cars never get worked on my anyone but me.

Different vehicles have different lug torque values, know them before working on the vehicle and torque properly AFTER cleaning all mating surfaces, it's part of the job. Over torquing with an impact is a very, very poor practice, lazy in fact to the point of potentially damaging rims, rotors, hubs, lugs & studs.

Over torquing by 20 or 30 pounds would certainly be fine by me if the other option was leaving things loose. Obviously torquing with a torque stick is common and a torque wrench is proper, but I figure that's why a lot of shops overtorque with an impact. Is it lazy? Yes. Would they rather a customer lose a wheel due to undertightning or destroy someones rotors or lug nuts? Our shop warranties work for two years, so I guess the owners logic was always over torque and replace a wheel rotor, than undertorque. I guess in his 13 years of owning his own shop hes never had an issue. Now me and the other guy are using a torque wrench, so we better hope we don't have issues now. :lol_hitti
 

RKA

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
1,744
Location
NJ
I think most people have covered this but vavet touched on it more specifically. First, establish a methodology that works so everything is done the same way. Any experienced pro that cares about their work will do this. Not only does it prevent mistakes and callbacks, it saves time. You can work faster by making less mistakes. But don't make working fast your goal, your goal right now should be eliminating mistakes. Some of these ideas come about from looking at your work and acknowledging the things you can screw up or forget. Some come from experience, but hopefully you only need to learn a lesson once.

Where and how you lay out parts you removed. The ground is generally bad if you're walking around. One errant step and parts go flying. But maybe identifying an area you won't need to stand/walk would work. Or better, have a rolling cart nearby to place the parts in the order you removed them.

Orienting bolts so they go back in the correct location and sequence. Put them with part you removed or on the car in the location they belong (new part can't go in without removing and reinstalling the bolts). Make sure there is no way for 10 bolts to come out and 9 bolts to go back in. Put them all in an obvious location not obscured by other tools, rags, etc. while you're reassembling.

Where you place tools while you're working. Under the hood, I use the left and right edges or the cowl. Never in the middle where I'll slam the hood shut and see the impression of the wrench on my hood. The last thing you do before you close the hood, check the oil cap, scan the left and right fenders and the cowl, no tools...good to go.

Leaving reminders for yourself so you can't proceed or wrap up a job without tripping over that reminder. I'll throw a quart of oil on my engine if I get distracted after I've drained the oil. I'm not closing that hood with the quart staring at me. If the drain bolt hasn't been put back, it's sitting on top of my new oil filter. When the filter goes in, so does the drain bolt. I know I won't miss a shiny new filter on the ground, but the drain bolt is far easier to miss.

Once you come up with that methodology, don't deviate. As you get experience, you might add to the methodology, but following those steps saves you from making mistakes.

But as vavet mentions, you'll get distracted, there will always be a reason to deviate (just keep it to a minimum or if it's outside your control, find a new place to work). Realize THAT'S when the mistake is going to happen, when you altered the routine. If in that moment you recognize that you're doing something different, leave a reminder for yourself. For example, if you didn't clean the rust off a hub/rotor yet and get called away before you could install the wheel. Thread the wheel bolts/nuts on the hub. The wheel isn't going back on with those bolts in the way, you'll remember then.

Finally, it's been mentioned here, but rust messes with everything. Fasteners and mating surfaces are particularly susceptible to creating problems. Clean off the parts before you reassemble and it will spare you headaches later. A couple years ago I learned that the hard way. My car was 12 years old. Previous to this I haven't kept a car much more than half of that. I always torque the wheels properly after I install them and I never miss a bolt and always check each bolt twice. A couple wheels after the winter wheel changeover, I discovered the bolts were backing out. That's the first time that's ever happened on me. I retorqued them and checked a week later and they were backing out again. I pulled all the bolts and cleaned the threads, put them back in and noticed the bolts were seating much more smoothly right to final torque. And a week after that I rechecked the bolts, no change, they were snug. Lesson learned, just clean the crud before you put it back together.
 

dalehsc

ALLIANCE MEMBER
Joined
Sep 7, 2013
Messages
227
Location
New Brunswick Canada
In this age of aluminum/alloy wheels, corrosion can be a real issue.If you had to "persuade" the rim off the hub....that's a big clue.Our dealership wire brushes the wheel mounting surfaces..standard practice.A shot of anti-sieze on the hub or wheel next.After so many years you have a good feel of the torque your gun produces. I run the nut until it touches the rim,drop the vehicle,then torque up the wheel. If it doesn't tighten up to your torque,back it off and re-do. A split beam torque wrench means adjusting to the torque specs on a wall chart from a reputable supplier. Torque wrench gets tested yearly. Yes,we still have an occasional "slip",but not many,we're a small dealership,(7 techs). Check twice if in doubt,it's worth it !!! There are torque sticks available at our shop. I'm old school,I don't trust them,after 40+ yrs in the trade, still use a torque wrench.
 
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NYBODYMAN

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 10, 2013
Messages
4,860
Location
NY
Back in 2012, I brought my then new Charger R/T AWD in to the dealer for its first oil change and tire rotation. I picked it up the next day and began to drive to work for my overnight shift. I get about 3 miles into my ride on the highway and I'm doing about 70-75 when I hear strange noises. I pull over in the rest area and check the wheels. All 20 lug nuts were barely hanging on the lugs. I took a video and saved it for the next day as they had already closed. I cranked them down and went to work. The next morning when I got out of work at 7 am I bee-lined it right for the dealership and lost my mind. The manager comes out and I show him the video and the look on his face was priceless. I watched a tech put the car on the lift and I made them check the suspension and wheel bearings for issues and also made them document it in their system and got a prnt out of same for any possible future issues. I told the guy I understand that **** happens but this a blatana disregard and he is lucky that my wife wasn't driving with the kids weren't in the car/She may not have heard the initial noise or pulled over to check it out. He claimed the guy got fired which I wasn't really looking for but I was pissed. In the end, the owner of the dealership ended up personally calling me and about two years later he personally sold me a new Durango at cost. He had just purchased the place at the time of the incident and he was cleaning house. I give him credit for making it right.
 
OP
J

joetech

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
117
Location
Iowa
I think most people have covered this but vavet touched on it more specifically. First, establish a methodology that works so everything is done the same way. Any experienced pro that cares about their work will do this. Not only does it prevent mistakes and callbacks, it saves time. You can work faster by making less mistakes. But don't make working fast your goal, your goal right now should be eliminating mistakes. Some of these ideas come about from looking at your work and acknowledging the things you can screw up or forget. Some come from experience, but hopefully you only need to learn a lesson once.

Where and how you lay out parts you removed. The ground is generally bad if you're walking around. One errant step and parts go flying. But maybe identifying an area you won't need to stand/walk would work. Or better, have a rolling cart nearby to place the parts in the order you removed them.

Orienting bolts so they go back in the correct location and sequence. Put them with part you removed or on the car in the location they belong (new part can't go in without removing and reinstalling the bolts). Make sure there is no way for 10 bolts to come out and 9 bolts to go back in. Put them all in an obvious location not obscured by other tools, rags, etc. while you're reassembling.

Where you place tools while you're working. Under the hood, I use the left and right edges or the cowl. Never in the middle where I'll slam the hood shut and see the impression of the wrench on my hood. The last thing you do before you close the hood, check the oil cap, scan the left and right fenders and the cowl, no tools...good to go.

Leaving reminders for yourself so you can't proceed or wrap up a job without tripping over that reminder. I'll throw a quart of oil on my engine if I get distracted after I've drained the oil. I'm not closing that hood with the quart staring at me. If the drain bolt hasn't been put back, it's sitting on top of my new oil filter. When the filter goes in, so does the drain bolt. I know I won't miss a shiny new filter on the ground, but the drain bolt is far easier to miss.

Once you come up with that methodology, don't deviate. As you get experience, you might add to the methodology, but following those steps saves you from making mistakes.

But as vavet mentions, you'll get distracted, there will always be a reason to deviate (just keep it to a minimum or if it's outside your control, find a new place to work). Realize THAT'S when the mistake is going to happen, when you altered the routine. If in that moment you recognize that you're doing something different, leave a reminder for yourself. For example, if you didn't clean the rust off a hub/rotor yet and get called away before you could install the wheel. Thread the wheel bolts/nuts on the hub. The wheel isn't going back on with those bolts in the way, you'll remember then.

Finally, it's been mentioned here, but rust messes with everything. Fasteners and mating surfaces are particularly susceptible to creating problems. Clean off the parts before you reassemble and it will spare you headaches later. A couple years ago I learned that the hard way. My car was 12 years old. Previous to this I haven't kept a car much more than half of that. I always torque the wheels properly after I install them and I never miss a bolt and always check each bolt twice. A couple wheels after the winter wheel changeover, I discovered the bolts were backing out. That's the first time that's ever happened on me. I retorqued them and checked a week later and they were backing out again. I pulled all the bolts and cleaned the threads, put them back in and noticed the bolts were seating much more smoothly right to final torque. And a week after that I rechecked the bolts, no change, they were snug. Lesson learned, just clean the crud before you put it back together.


I've had to re-read this post several times, it's that good. Thank you for posting!!!!!
 
OP
J

joetech

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
117
Location
Iowa
Back in 2012, I brought my then new Charger R/T AWD in to the dealer for its first oil change and tire rotation. I picked it up the next day and began to drive to work for my overnight shift. I get about 3 miles into my ride on the highway and I'm doing about 70-75 when I hear strange noises. I pull over in the rest area and check the wheels. All 20 lug nuts were barely hanging on the lugs. I took a video and saved it for the next day as they had already closed. I cranked them down and went to work. The next morning when I got out of work at 7 am I bee-lined it right for the dealership and lost my mind. The manager comes out and I show him the video and the look on his face was priceless. I watched a tech put the car on the lift and I made them check the suspension and wheel bearings for issues and also made them document it in their system and got a prnt out of same for any possible future issues. I told the guy I understand that **** happens but this a blatana disregard and he is lucky that my wife wasn't driving with the kids weren't in the car/She may not have heard the initial noise or pulled over to check it out. He claimed the guy got fired which I wasn't really looking for but I was pissed. In the end, the owner of the dealership ended up personally calling me and about two years later he personally sold me a new Durango at cost. He had just purchased the place at the time of the incident and he was cleaning house. I give him credit for making it right.

ALL 20 LUG NUTS were loose? That's REALLY bad!!!! Wow... I'm glad to hear the dealer treated you right. What kind of a hurry were they in that they couldn't tighten 20 lug nuts? One wheel is bad enough... I can't imagine how you felt about all four!
 
OP
J

joetech

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
117
Location
Iowa
In this age of aluminum/alloy wheels, corrosion can be a real issue.If you had to "persuade" the rim off the hub....that's a big clue.Our dealership wire brushes the wheel mounting surfaces..standard practice.A shot of anti-sieze on the hub or wheel next.After so many years you have a good feel of the torque your gun produces. I run the nut until it touches the rim,drop the vehicle,then torque up the wheel. If it doesn't tighten up to your torque,back it off and re-do. A split beam torque wrench means adjusting to the torque specs on a wall chart from a reputable supplier. Torque wrench gets tested yearly. Yes,we still have an occasional "slip",but not many,we're a small dealership,(7 techs). Check twice if in doubt,it's worth it !!! There are torque sticks available at our shop. I'm old school,I don't trust them,after 40+ yrs in the trade, still use a torque wrench.

In my almost 4 months there I've seen too many wheels need persuading with a 20lb sledgehammer and then they get gunned right back on. I don't like it one lousy bit but 98% of them weren't my problem... the shop doesn't even have the right tools to clean the hubs properly yet. If I go back I will need to get **** about that and politely let the boss know that I don't intend to get fired again because another wheel came off because we "didn't have time" to clean the corrosion and do the job properly.
 

Milton Shaw

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2011
Messages
4,839
I remember one that happened almost 50 years ago. A regular customer called a week after service and told us we had left all his tires loose and he had to replace wheels and lugs. The strange thing is that we had spin balanced his wheels on the car with a Hunter spin balancer. Then I remembered, he was one of these people that had to be in the shop and I remember him following the tire tech around and hand tightening all the lugs, so that it looked like they were tight. They were tight enough for us to spin balance the tires but of course they came off before the week was out. Any time the customer has tried to help, you have to check everything more carefully or it will catch you. Back then, 50 years ago, customers could be in the shop, not now because of insurance/lawsuit problems.
 

logical

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
2,465
Location
Northern fringe of the Motor City Suburbs
If you care at all about consistently doing things right you should use some sort of structured checklist or procedure. Even operating rooms have adopted checklists with very good results and surgeons are some of the more difficult people to submit to the idea that they need to be reminded or monitored.

The rule mentioned earlier about not stopping in the middle of a task is by itself a valuable tool.
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
Its a problem with training some people, getting them to do the same thing the same way twice in a row. I got to explain,,,, maybe there is a better way,,, we did it a dozen till we settled on this, do it like this first,,, then if we come up with something better after you learn that we will try it.
I have seen them stuck after a lot of effort with messy ****. Its a rare day I use never seize but we spray every bolt and I have a wire wheel to zip inside the wheel hub which then gets sprayed with a shot of liq wrench or similar before installation, that works about as good as anything.
 
Last edited:

NYBODYMAN

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 10, 2013
Messages
4,860
Location
NY
ALL 20 LUG NUTS were loose? That's REALLY bad!!!! Wow... I'm glad to hear the dealer treated you right. What kind of a hurry were they in that they couldn't tighten 20 lug nuts? One wheel is bad enough... I can't imagine how you felt about all four!

You have NO idea. The service manager was literally speechless.
 

ngk22r

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
1,589
Location
AZ
In my almost 4 months there I've seen too many wheels need persuading with a 20lb sledgehammer and then they get gunned right back on. I don't like it one lousy bit but 98% of them weren't my problem... the shop doesn't even have the right tools to clean the hubs properly yet. If I go back I will need to get **** about that and politely let the boss know that I don't intend to get fired again because another wheel came off because we "didn't have time" to clean the corrosion and do the job properly.

Instead of using a sledge, try using a prybar. The end of the of the pry bar goes up against a strong point of the lower control arm while you gently add pressure against the tire/wheel. You can use the same technique for popping off rotors too. Work smart not hard saves the day!
 

theoldwizard1

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
43,196
Location
SE MI
... the other one was a wheel fell off of a 3500 truck a few days after I fixed a flat tire.
At Costco they do a 3 step lug nut check.


  • torque stick
  • torque wrench
  • different person, different torque wrench

They also suggest returning within a week or two for a torque check.
 
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