Shop sink no septic field

[jack stand]

I was wondering if a shop sink, (no parts washing,chemicals, etc. more like you'd use a kitchen sink) that exited to the outside and turned down into a "french drain" type pit would tend to freeze ? I was initially thinking that a trap should be under the sink like a normal one, that's what led me to the freezing thoughts.
I'm thinking that about 12-14" would be exposed outside above the grade, then continue down to a gravel filled trench with a perforated pipe about 8' long embedded in the gravel. Once the snow set's in for the winter, that exposed pipe will be buried in the snow out of the cold air & wind.

 

[T_R]

I think it would freeze right up.

 

[tapered-pin]

any water left outside during your winters will freeze (i would think).


bottom line.. a small "oil water separator/septic tank" and a limited leeching field (essentially a micro sized septic system) would handle a single sink as long as the discharge point was well below the potential frost line.


eta: wait, you mean the P trap under the sink?
(is it sitting in conditioned space or unconditioned space?)

 

[theoldwizard1]

Do what they did 80+ years ago.

Dig a big hole. Big enough to place a 55 gallon drum in and cover with at least 24" of dirt. You also want 6"-12" of open space all around it.

Drill 1" holes spaced about 2"-4" a part all the way around starting about 3' from the bottom. You should have 3 or 4 rows space 3"-6" a part. Warp the drum in 2 layers of heavy duty landscape fabric.

Place the drum in the hole and fill with gravel up to where the holes start. Back fill the area around the drum with gravel. Don't forget to plumb in the drain pipe near the top of the barrel. Cover with top soil.

You will need a vent stack in the garage like any other drain. If you do NOT put any chemicals down the drain, this system will last indefinitely.

 

[biggziff]

You don't need a trap if you're not connected to a sewer. It's only there to act as a valve to keep sewer gases out of the living space.

 

[aaronmn]

Do what they did 80+ years ago.

Dig a big hole. Big enough to place a 55 gallon drum in and cover with at least 24" of dirt. You also want 6"-12" of open space all around it.

Drill 1" holes spaced about 2"-4" a part all the way around starting about 3' from the bottom. You should have 3 or 4 rows space 3"-6" a part. Warp the drum in 2 layers of heavy duty landscape fabric.

Place the drum in the hole and fill with gravel up to where the holes start. Back fill the area around the drum with gravel. Don't forget to plumb in the drain pipe near the top of the barrel. Cover with top soil.

You will need a vent stack in the garage like any other drain. If you do NOT put any chemicals down the drain, this system will last indefinitely.

How would you vent this?

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[kabinenroller]

When I built my shop I wanted to have running water, floor drains and a drain for the hydronic system. I did not want to tie into my septic system because of grade difference and cost. I pulled the building permit then went to the towns plumbing department and told them what I wanted to do. The head honcho plumping inspector said I could run the floor drains “to grade” and it would be legal. (I am surrounded by farm land) I payed the $40 permit fee and went to work, I roughed in the drains and the main pipe through the foundation wall, I did not want anything penetrating the roof so I used a studer vent. Before we poured the floor I called the inspector so he could approve the rough in. He came to the site looked at everything then stood on the foundation wall and looked at the 4” PVC that exited the building he asked me where it went and I said out to the corn field. He said OK and signed off on the rough in. The final inspection went about the same. All is good.
Actually instead of running an open pipe to the field I ran the pipe about 40’ from the building then had a 36” hole bored in the ground. I filled the hole with 3” rock and covered it, the pipe drain into the rock then dissipates. All the drains have traps.

 

[like2wheel]

You don't need a trap if you're not connected to a sewer. It's only there to act as a valve to keep sewer gases out of the living space.

And if you don't have a trap, you won't need a vent stack

 

[PugetDude]

How would you vent this?

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Treat it the same as any other vent stack. The vent doesn't care where the discharge is going- sewer, septic or barrel of rocks.

 

[GTFiero]

Vent it by locating a “boca” vent just down steam from the trap. This will allow the water from the sink to easily flow to the in ground barrel. Much cheaper than building a large vent to the roof or whatever.

 

[Strouty]

I agree that a trap and vent would not be needed. I used plastic barrels with the holes and crushed stone for my french drain in front of my shop. Even in the winter they seem to take water without freezing. I used to have crazy ice dams in front of my doors, then in the spring it would flood the shop.

 

[gungatim]

I have a trap on mine. nothing freezes outside since it isn't sitting full of water. inside before I insulated I just kept a gallon of rv antifreeze and poured some in the drain when I was done for the day. post-insulation I don't bother since it doesn't get that cold long enough to freeze and if it did, it's just a plastic trap easy enough to replace...obviously the trap is inside under the sink, not outside...

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

IMO the old "barrel in the ground" and "french drain" techniques are really basic septic systems. Venting still helps water flow down the drain and traps still block gases and odors.

 

[GMCGarage]

A trap will keep critters and spiders from using it as a subway to your garage.

 

[jack stand]

I think it would freeze right up.

This is my concern, the 12-16" of the vertical drain pipe that is exposed from exiting the wall under the sink, to the point it enters the ground.

any water left outside during your winters will freeze (i would think).
eta: wait, you mean the P trap under the sink?
(is it sitting in conditioned space or unconditioned space?)

There certainly will be no "standing water" as the pipe that is exposed will be vertical. Just Wondering if ice would "build" in layers with each use eventually closing it.

You don't need a trap if you're not connected to a sewer. It's only there to act as a valve to keep sewer gases out of the living space.

Is there a possibility of the drain trench creating a stink that would enter the building without a trap? The trap would be under the sink like a "normal" Pee trap.

 

[01-7700]

How much water are we talking about here? And how will you keep the supply from freezing?

 

[jack stand]

How much water are we talking about here? And how will you keep the supply from freezing?

The building is heated & insulated very well. Got to thinking about it, and the drain will see hot water and should keep the exposed pipe clear. Now traps or not (will there be an odor from the french drain)?
As for the amount of water the drain will see, I don't want any limitations and have unlimited length I can run the drain, now or in the future.
Is the amount of water a "freezing issue" or the trench simply "handling it"?

 

[01-7700]

It's a certainty that there will be an odor from a trapless waste line. The stank factor will be exponentially proportional to the organic load (don't pee in the sink). If you're dumping water below the frost line in soils that have adequate percolation there shunt be a problem with backups. Design your french drain to account for water volume and perc rate and do put in a trap because even clean water dumped in the ground will produce a stink if you put your nose near the sink drain.

 

[rburke65]

I tied my sink into the downspouts and flies into the woods. I have a trap. All is well.

 

[6768rogues]

I have 6 blue barrels and 6 tons of #1 crushed stone buried. The pipe to it exits the building above grade and runs about 20 feet before going under ground. None of it is below frost depth and it never freezes. The pipe won't be full and standing still, it won't freeze. Where it dumps might become an icy patch. If you think it is freezing, run some hot water down it.
If I am not going to be around for a while in the winter, I dump some windshield washer antifreeze in the traps in case the heat fails.

 

[theoldwizard1]

How would you vent this?

First, if you do it the way I suggested, you DO want a trap. There will be gases coming up from that buried barrel.

Second, your sink/plumbing fixture is vented the same way any plumbing fixture is vented. For a kitchen/laundry room sink the typical drain pipe is 1-1/2". After the trap, run the horizontal pipe into a tee. The bottom of the tee goes out. The top of the tee goes above the roof (I don't l know what the spec is). The tee, drain and vent pipe can be hidden inside of a wall.

 

[Strouty]

First, if you do it the way I suggested, you DO want a trap. There will be gases coming up from that buried barrel.

Second, your sink/plumbing fixture is vented the same way any plumbing fixture is vented. For a kitchen/laundry room sink the typical drain pipe is 1-1/2". After the trap, run the horizontal pipe into a tee. The bottom of the tee goes out. The top of the tee goes above the roof (I don't l know what the spec is). The tee, drain and vent pipe can be hidden inside of a wall.

What gasses are going to come up from a buried barrel full of crushed stone? Cherry scented hand cleaner?

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have 6 blue barrels and 6 tons of #1 crushed stone buried.

SIX BARRELS ? How many sinks/showers do you have connected to it ? Or do you have black water also ?

My brother-in-laws cottage in northern CT was built pre-WWII. It has 2 drums, one on each side of the house. Typically only 2 or 4 people there for a 2-7 days.

 

[6768rogues]

I have one toilet, a shower, two sinks and a dish washer. Once I got on the backhoe and started digging, I got carried away and buried 6 barrels. They are connected by pipe and drilled with lots of 1/2" holes and were empty, the gravel fills the voids around the barrels. It has been 8 years since they went in and whatever I flush goes away. My wife says I am an over achiever.

 

[sberry]

Some pipe insulation would help with letting the hot that went down have a little chance to work.

 

[J king]

I have a 6 gal bucket under the sink.. dump it when it fills up. Lol. Working for 20 years. Never plugged up..lol

 

[NUTTSGT]

The hose for our sump pump goes out through a hole in the foundation (blocked up window) and is exposed to the winter air for a few feet. It's been that way for 15+ years. The only time we had an issue is when I screwed up and replaced the hose not taking the slack out of it. I created a place for water to lay and it froze. My fault and my ******* was outside in the middle of winter shortening and straightening that hose where it goes into the ground to a tile for the down spouts. Lesson learned.

If you're plumbing, it'll be easier to add a vent (use a studor vent for no roof penatrations) and P-trap now while you're doing rather than later.

You may or may not get any smells but if you occasionally get them, when you have your shop open during the summer, it will draw air out of the sink drain. We get calls many times when it hasn't rained for a few weeks and people smell sewer in their basement. Those older homes either have no traps in their basement floor drains or the p-traps in the old basement shower/sink have long since dried up. Dumping some water down the drain solves the dry trap issue but the non trap issue needs to have a wet towel or something placed over it.

A P-trap costs less than $5 and if you ever drop something ( like your wedding ring) down the drain washing it off . The trap just might catch it.

 

[59 wagon man]

2 or 3 interceptor drainfield panels for the water and a provent or studor vent and a trap this would be considered grey water and can build odors from natural breakdown of materials washed down the drain

 

[skipnay]

Couldn't you use heat tape around it in winter?

 

[yeldogt]

The problem with an exposed pipe used frequently with continued sub-freezing weather -- the ice builds up each time the water flows trough the pipe. You may be able to keep it free with a hit of hot water ... but the way to do it is to have it all under grade from the inside of the building.

You still need a trap and vent -- it's not different vs any other drain. Smells from a buried pit or bugs from an open pipe in warm climates.

A simple garage drain to light is allow in my are -- it can't be buried or be in any commercial building. I'm sure making your own pit for a sink is not allowed anyplace w/ current codes.

 

[6768rogues]

Septic tanks, the pipes leading to them and the leach fields going from them are not below frost level. A pipe that is not full of standing water will not freeze unless you are somewhere near the arctic circle. If you can spit and it does not freeze before hitting the ground, your pipe will be fine.

 

[BD1]

I have a 6 gal bucket under the sink.. dump it when it fills up. Lol. Working for 20 years. Never plugged up..lol

That's what I did too. Mine is going on 30 .

 

[7635tools]

If you are that worried about it freezing, you could wrap the exposed pipe with heat trace and insulate over it. It will never freeze.


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[jack stand]

Septic tanks, the pipes leading to them and the leach fields going from them are not below frost level.

That's what I'll do normal "pee" trap, get it through the wall and underground asap into a gravel ditch.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Anything just draining into the ground around here would be very illegal, even with the drums. At best it would be considered a drywell, most likely it would be an illegal septic system...

Tommy...