Shop sizing conundrum

[NBraun]

To avoid rambling, I will get straight to the point. I had always planned to put up a 36'x40' shop when we moved onto our acreage. I wasn't going to waste time and money building something twice, or skimping out on something and regretting it down the road. It was going to have in floor heat, very good insulation, match the house and look better than just a commercial building. Well reality hit and I don't quite have the budget for that. That being said, it's getting to the point that I'd really like to just have A building up. Currently it's just the house and a heated space that isn't the house would be very helpful, And i'd like to get my tractor and implements out of weather a bit more.

I would rather have a smaller, very well setup shop that I can add on to later, than a larger uninsulated building right now. But at some point it has to be a decent enough size to make it worth building. What that size is I'm not sure. Maybe 24x24 or 30x24? I have always planned on DIY'ing everything, including concrete (I have experienced help!) I don't care if it takes a while to actually finish out the inside either. Originally I was going to stick frame it since the inside was being finished, but I would have to have the floor poured before I can get the building up, and adding onto it later would be more difficult. Post frame is easier to put up in stages, but more difficult to finish out.

I'm mostly just curious to hear every ones thoughts on this. I realize it's the golden question and I'm not the first guy to ask about shop sizing. I just keep getting hung up with analysis paralysis.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Do you have budget to put up a 36x40 building, but only finish out half of it for now? I've seen plenty of pole barns were half was a finished shop with floor, insulated walls, etc. and the other half was just the uninsulated walls, roof and a dirt floor.
The advantage of that is in the future you can work on finishing out the interior of the second half at your leisure, protected from the elements.

 

[NBraun]

Possibly? My hope has always been to be able to get shell up for around 20,000. But I don't think that's a possibility anymore.

 

[mm08822]

I would design the entire final building before starting on the first phase. This can ensure you have covered the details when phase 2 gets bolted onto phase 1. Maybe the connector between the 2 sections in a mandoor or overhead door.

Worst case, you have 1 insulated wall that eventually is not diectly exposed to the elements but tempered with the cold storage.

Put your electrical panel on this common wall to reduce overall wiring if that makes sense for you.

I would heat and insulate phase 1 so it is what you want from the beginning. (At least pex and insulation in the floor concrete. Wall and ceiling insulation for certains. Add ceiling fans too.

 

[u2slow]

Mine is stick framed. Floor was not poured first - only stem walls.

 

[Sumboodie]

Possibly? My hope has always been to be able to get shell up for around 20,000. But I don't think that's a possibility anymore.

Would be doing good to have the dirtwork and slab with pex for that.

I just got quotes for a 30x30 addition to my building and it was over 150k. Of course location matters, but I was floored. I expected 50-75k range.

 

[NBraun]

Would be doing good to have the dirtwork and slab with pex for that.

I just got quotes for a 30x30 addition to my building and it was over 150k

Yup. That 20,000 number was always just a pole shed with no floor. I got a quote of 15, for a 36x40 x 5" slab with pex, but that was a napkin quote, so subject to change.

 

[Chilliwack Murray]

Mine is stick framed. Floor was not poured first - only stem walls.

Same for me, it rains too much here to do concrete work reliably in 3 seasons that aren’t summer.

I built my stick frame shell and framed in an 8x8 door in the back corner which has become the breezeway to an addition of a dirty bay.

Once you’re out of the weather you can use the space and continue finishing the inside. It’s harder to do some of that finishing work after you move in but it also gives you time to try things out and see how you actually use the space. That can be a big help in the wiring and plumbing departments and it’s not hard to rework these in unfinished walls.

I’d love to have finished mine in one go but I do it as I can afford it, I’m not willing to borrow to pay for it so it’ll be a few years yet to be completed.

 

[carlaisle]

Stick framing costs a bit more up front, but if you intend to fully finish it going that route makes a lot of sense. In floor radiant is nice, but it also adds a not insignificant cost I would be hard-pressed to justify unless heating the space 12 months out of the year. If my wallet was stretched thin, that would probably be high on the list to skip. I would try very hard to get the full size building I want up front. Adding on later is generally easy enough, but rarely can it be done in a truly satisfactory manner. The materials may not match due to weathering or obsolescence, zoning regulations could change prohibiting making the building larger or requiring updates in order to do so, roof lines are nigh impossible to get perfect if that's something that will bother you, etc. If funds are really tight, even the slab can be postponed until a later date. A few pieces of plywood make a very serviceable temporary floor.

 

[Michigan Mike]

Can you put up a smaller building with an open air lean to on the side? That gives you room for expansion later and a place for your tractor now.

 

[4x4Pete]

The problem is (in my case anyway) if it isn't finished before moving in, it'll never get finished.
Since you have acreage, how about building a dry shed to work out of the rain, tarp walls to help heat, and keep you motivated to build a shop. It'll be a useable structure even after you have built your shop. I'm sure you want to keep that tractor out of the weather and not in your shop.

 

[goldtang]

my thoughts

 

[Jackfre]

I built a 30x30 with a 4x14’ bump out on one corner for the primary OH door. The 30x30 base is good because you have one bay for vehicles and another 15’ or so for tools/ storage etc. I skipped the in-floor. Nice yes, but pricey and I didn’t want to heat it constantly. You might consider a location in your profile. It helps to get better advise.

 

[u2slow]

I'm still finishing my shop coming up on 12 years later. Having the use of the building is way more advantageous.

Adding on later is generally easy enough, but rarely can it be done in a truly satisfactory manner.

I ran into a height regulation there that would have 'crippled' me into a shorter building initially. Building the lean-to's into the main roof from the start lowered my eave height, and the 'mean' roof height.

So for me it was better to have more done - structurally - up front - and deal with the rest later.

 

[CraigStu]

You could reduce the building size w/ a lean-to off one side at least for the tractor etc. Put it on the most common storm downwind side and dump a bunch of gravel for a floor. oops Michigan beat me to it. I agree w/ carlaisle. My first house we put up a small garage w/ gravel floor planning to eventually concrete it. In the mean time I bought 4 sheets of 3/4 subflooring and a bunch of 2x4s. Smoothed out the gravel, laid down 2x4s and screwed the plywood down. That got me an 8'x16' 'shop' floor and another plywood cut into two 4'x4' let me jack up a car on the gravel.

 

[firebirdparts]

Design the expanded version about 4 times that size and figure out what the expansion process is, and then build whatever the first stage is. The size depends on what you want to do with it, and "park a tractor" is not really allowed as a reason to build a building with in floor heat. You have come up with something for "intent".

 

[NBraun]

Stick framing costs a bit more up front, but if you intend to fully finish it going that route makes a lot of sense. In floor radiant is nice, but it also adds a not insignificant cost I would be hard-pressed to justify unless heating the space 12 months out of the year. If my wallet was stretched thin, that would probably be high on the list to skip. I would try very hard to get the full size building I want up front. Adding on later is generally easy enough, but rarely can it be done in a truly satisfactory manner. The materials may not match due to weathering or obsolescence, zoning regulations could change prohibiting making the building larger or requiring updates in order to do so, roof lines are nigh impossible to get perfect if that's something that will bother you, etc. If funds are really tight, even the slab can be postponed until a later date. A few pieces of plywood make a very serviceable temporary floor.

I appreciate the advice. You're right about the in floor heat being expensive and a not insignificant cost. I'm in South Dakota and all my free time is the winter, so I want it to be comfortable and everyone raves about how nice it feels, but at some point budget does come into play.

Can you put up a smaller building with an open air lean to on the side? That gives you room for expansion later and a place for your tractor now.

That's something that I should consider!

The problem is (in my case anyway) if it isn't finished before moving in, it'll never get finished.
Since you have acreage, how about building a dry shed to work out of the rain, tarp walls to help heat, and keep you motivated to build a shop. It'll be a useable structure even after you have built your shop. I'm sure you want to keep that tractor out of the weather and not in your shop.

Luckily I have a soft sided shelter type building to at least get the important stuff out of the weather. It was a short term solution only to last a couple of years, but we're already going on year 3.

I built a 30x30 with a 4x14’ bump out on one corner for the primary OH door. The 30x30 base is good because you have one bay for vehicles and another 15’ or so for tools/ storage etc. I skipped the in-floor. Nice yes, but pricey and I didn’t want to heat it constantly. You might consider a location in your profile. It helps to get better advise.

South Dakota, so it's cold!

You could reduce the building size w/ a lean-to off one side at least for the tractor etc. Put it on the most common storm downwind side and dump a bunch of gravel for a floor. oops Michigan beat me to it. I agree w/ carlaisle. My first house we put up a small garage w/ gravel floor planning to eventually concrete it. In the mean time I bought 4 sheets of 3/4 subflooring and a bunch of 2x4s. Smoothed out the gravel, laid down 2x4s and screwed the plywood down. That got me an 8'x16' 'shop' floor and another plywood cut into two 4'x4' let me jack up a car on the gravel.

I will definitely price something like that out. I don't mind working on gravel if it means i'm out of the wind!

 

[NBraun]

Design the expanded version about 4 times that size and figure out what the expansion process is, and then build whatever the first stage is. The size depends on what you want to do with it, and "park a tractor" is not really allowed as a reason to build a building with in floor heat. You have come up with something for "intent".

haha You're correct

It will 100% be a shop used for wood working, welding, and a place to facilitate the fixing up of our house. Not storage, and not a garage (though it would be used to get our nice car out of the weather when needed). Right now all my free time from work is in the winter, but we don't have a good heated space that isn't the house to work on things. So painting and staining and all that always end up having to wait until nicer weather.

 

[PWC Repair]

Sounds like the same type situation I was in. Guess what..?........prices won't be getting any cheaper in years to come. Plan the size you want and get started. The floor heat is not that expensive to do along WITH the concrete......you can't really add it later! I'm so glad my wife talked me into just getting mine started even though It took me 5 years to finish. Check out my build thread.

 

[Sumboodie]

my thoughts

The shed looks usable, ill deal with being cramped, but who needs a house that big? They have 5 kids?

 

[Fixr]

Figure out how much space you need for working shop space and maybe let go of having a lot of heated insulated storage for "stuff". I'm a limited budget guy, and I'd store a lot of things in a recycled tin lean-to or even under heavy-duty tarps if that let me have a heated, lighted shop with a concrete floor and lift. Priorities, ya' know?

 

[WildBill]

I used a kit from these guys for a 24x36 shop and am extremely happy with it, super easy to put together and the frame is really solid. I don't know your wind or snow load but higher will add to the price, you can use the custom tool to build a kit with whatever specs you need. Buying the sheet metal locally would probably save $3-4k, they recommend it as they build the frames and have to get sheet metal from a third party, which costs you more than getting it locally. They give you a really nice list to take to your local metal place. https://www.versatube.com/building-kits/garages-buildings/summit-garage-2x4-36-w-x-48-l-x-14-h?

 

[BillK]

I dont think you will be happy with a 24 x 24 if you are going to store a vehicle in it. That is the size of my detached garage and with my Chevelle in there it is pretty useless for anything else.

Since you have the room go out and stake off a 24 x 24 square and then put your tractor in the middle and you will see what I mean

 

[Jeff Ivers]

It has been too long since I built my shop to comment on costs. I self built a framed 24x50 on a concrete slab. I went with 24 foot to reduce cost. Although extra depth would have been nice, the shop has served me well. I hired slab and under slab plumbing and did every thing else myself.

 

[Mezz2006]

Sounds like the same type situation I was in. Guess what..?........prices won't be getting any cheaper in years to come. Plan the size you want and get started. The floor heat is not that expensive to do along WITH the concrete......you can't really add it later! I'm so glad my wife talked me into just getting mine started even though It took me 5 years to finish. Check out my build thread.

This right here!! In floor heat prep is not that expensive. Doing it all at once, sure it could be, but if you are doing this in steps over time, its not bad. If you are heating the building, you are going to want insulation under the slab anyways, so that cost is a wash, tubing for a 36x40 I would estimate at $500. You can wait on your manifolds/pumps/boiler til you recoup some funds. But, as PWC said, you can't really add the tubing to the concrete later.

 

[NBraun]

This right here!! In floor heat prep is not that expensive. Doing it all at once, sure it could be, but if you are doing this in steps over time, its not bad. If you are heating the building, you are going to want insulation under the slab anyways, so that cost is a wash, tubing for a 36x40 I would estimate at $500. You can wait on your manifolds/pumps/boiler til you recoup some funds. But, as PWC said, you can't really add the tubing to the concrete later.

I appreciate hearing this, because that certainly doesn't seem so terrible.

 

[CraigStu]

My brother had a large attached garage built maybe 10yrs ago. He put the tubing in the slab at the time. He laid it out in 2 or 3 sections. A couple years later they had a wall built to turn 1/3 of the garage into a family room. He connected the family room section of heat to a hot water source when the family room was created. Last winter he connected the rest of the floor heat although he doesn't use it much.

 

[PWC Repair]

I appreciate hearing this, because that certainly doesn't seem so terrible.

Yep, I think for around 5-800 you can probably buy your tubing and foam sheet for under the concrete. Shop around, check out Facebook and Craigslist. When I was building my shop I found a lot of bargains like that. Now we're building our son's house and already bought about $13k of nice polymer siding for $800!! It was on marketplace from a siding and insulation company as overstock or misordered......something like that. Also bought his I-joists for the second floor like that for about 1/2 price!

 

[Mezz2006]

I appreciate hearing this, because that certainly doesn't seem so terrible.

I have less than $1,500 in my tubing and manifolds at this point and my shop is 44'x56'. Pex tubing was about half that expense.

Yep, I think for around 5-800 you can probably buy your tubing and foam sheet for under the concrete. Shop around, check out Facebook and Craigslist. When I was building my shop I found a lot of bargains like that. Now we're building our son's house and already bought about $13k of nice polymer siding for $800!! It was on marketplace from a siding and insulation company as overstock or misordered......something like that. Also bought his I-joists for the second floor like that for about 1/2 price!

This reminds me I have some leftover pex i need to sell on Facebook.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'd rather have a big bare building that I can finish as I can throw available dollars at it than to have to keep adding on at a later date.


Get the shell up, weather tight and pour the floor. Finish the rest as you can.

 

[ez-duzit]

I'd rather have a big bare building that I can finish as I can throw available dollars at it than to have to keep adding on at a later date.


Get the shell up, weather tight and pour the floor. Finish the rest as you can.

This. And consider a few Conex containers (perhaps with a truss roof between them) to make-do while you're getting it all together. PSP might be useful as flooring under tractors, etc.

 

[My Old Tools]

I can tell you from experience that once you move anything in, it's very hard to add wiring, insulation, etc.

 

[finn]

This right here!! In floor heat prep is not that expensive. Doing it all at once, sure it could be, but if you are doing this in steps over time, its not bad. If you are heating the building, you are going to want insulation under the slab anyways, so that cost is a wash, tubing for a 36x40 I would estimate at $500. You can wait on your manifolds/pumps/boiler til you recoup some funds. But, as PWC said, you can't really add the tubing to the concrete later.

In floor heat was quite a cost hit when I poured my slab, insulation is expensive, and the labor quote was pretty high. The Pex is the cheap part.

Also, modulating boilers, manifolds, etc are quite precious compared to mini split heat pumps or overhead heaters.

It is nice to lay on a heated floor, although you don’t do much of that when you get a lift or two.

I have it in my shop, but never completed the installation in my garage near the house. I wouldn’t install it again unless I needed the shop heated to working temperature every day, all winter.

 

[Mr.Josh]

There is always one common answer that comes up whenever you ask someone what they would of done different when they built their barn.

The answer is simple and it is my answer as well.

You need to build as big as you can afford. Everything else can be pieced together.

Hope this helps!

 

[kwb]

Even if you max out what you can do today with just a shell have a plan for easy/logical expansion.
My Basis for this is a 20yr old shop with a 9mo old addition for dry storage.

My tie in was more complicated because I didn't have a plan

 

[u2slow]

I can tell you from experience that once you move anything in, it's very hard to add wiring, insulation, etc.

I'm doing this - 12 years in now. The height of my shop is a bigger obstacle for finishing than my 'stuff' is. Also, I'm doing surface wiring.