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shop slab question

larrybud

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Hello. I've purchased a 30x40 mueller building and and trying to get a slab done. I had someone lined up to do the slab and it fell through. I contacted a few others and they either would not call me back, or just high bid it. It seems that everyone is doing commercial work and no one really wants to mess with a small shop. Anyway I have decided to try to do this myself.
I'm on red clay and have fairly uneven ground. My brother in law did me a favor and did my dirt work and built me up a pad.
There's seems to be differing opinions and i curious to see what sort of response i get but some folks say to use sand under the slab. Others say crushed stone. Some say the sand cannot take enough load. Others say it doesn't matter. Just curious what some on here think.

thanks
 
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sberry

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If its packed and isn't going to get water under it then its fine, compacted stone with sand sifted in would be great. Help yourself some by listing general location here.
 

p_mori7

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I am near the river on the north side of Montreal, and am also on clay.

I excavated about 16" deep, then laid down crushed gravel, 0"-3/4", then had it compacted.

The slab is on top of that. 12" thickened edges, 5" everywhere else, rebar 7 mesh.

A few very minor cracks, but zero shifting / spreading.
 
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larrybud

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Thanks. I put my location in my profile.

This may seem like a dumb question but I have see this often but what exactly do you mean when you say "get water under it"?
 

lakeroadster

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Thanks. I put my location in my profile.

This may seem like a dumb question but I have see this often but what exactly do you mean when you say "get water under it"?

"get water under it": If the building elevation / surrounding area is such that ground water can get underneath the slab.

The water will affect the compaction of the sub base.... and you'll likely end up with cracking / shifting issues.

Did your brother in law compact the fill that he added... and if yes.. how/with what? The sub-grade for the concrete should be compacted ... as in... compacted enough that you have troubles trying to drive a pointed piece of rebar down into it... that hard.
 
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larrybud

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Gotcha. I'm in a slope so I don't think that will be an issue. As far as compaction goes, he drove a large bobcat around on it for a while. I also let it get wet and then drove my suburban around on it. It's fairly tough know and the only thing I can hardly drive into it is 1/4" rebar.
 

850xpeps

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Yes don't cheap on the compaction. You will regret it. When I can I prefer to use clean rock as it doesn't require the compaction because it won't settle and isn't affect by frost or water penetration.


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My Old Tools

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What is your soil like? Black gumbo, gray clay, red clay, sand? On sandy soil you might get by with a flat slab or minor footings. On black gumbo you'll need a real engineered slab.
others are probably somewhere in the middle.
 

jvitez

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Properly done pads here get "3/4 down" crushed limestone (why is the terminology for rock so different across North America?). Properly done for our black gumbo soil is compacting the 3/4 down in 2-4 inch lifts using a proper plate or vibratory roller compactor.

Driving around on it with a bobcat/truck is a good start, but do it once, do it right, especially for under concrete. You need to use a real compactor.

"What a superb job you did placing the concrete, why is it heaving so badly?" ;)
 

wssix99

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There's seems to be differing opinions and i curious to see what sort of response i get but some folks say to use sand under the slab. Others say crushed stone. Some say the sand cannot take enough load. Others say it doesn't matter. Just curious what some on here think.

No need to rely on opinions. Organizations like PCA actually experiment and test this stuff. They also have a number of free resources for you:

http://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/site-prep/proper-subgrade-prep_o

http://www.cement.org/cement-concre...-with-concrete/placing-and-finishing-concrete


As mentioned above, you'll want to compact the dirt you have down already with a proper compactor so your base doesn't sink in to the clay. Driving a vehicle over it, won't do a good job. If you talk to people in your area, they can tell you what works best. I would guess people in your area, probably use jumping jacks for small areas and rollers for larger areas.

A gravel base will provide you the drainage you need under the slab. If you want to save some money, you could even do crushed, recycled concrete. That gets compacted with a vibratory plate compactor.

Then the concrete goes on top.

Concrete is expensive. Base is less expensive. The more depth you can get with the base, the less pressure will be transferred to the dirt, (it disperses with the square of the height from the top of the slab) so a base/thicker base gives you better performance/longevity for the slab.
 

ford33

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A 30 x 40 foot building slab is a large project. Do you realize laying the concrete will require a large crew to get it finished before the starts to cure?

Perhaps you should consider preparing the soil and and the forms and hiring a crew to do the finish work.

You only get one chance at doing this right. Having an experienced crew would help you get it right.
 
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matt_i

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My goal would be this: get the prep work done so its a "1 day cash job" for a concrete crew. Call your local ready mix yard and ask for a couple of recommendations of people who can do your type of project. They will most likely know. Eventually some kind of delay will come up even for a busy crew and if they can jump on a job thats ready to go and make money when they were scratching their head about how to keep busy tomorrow, its a win-win.

Personally I would make some measurements, and find access to a rotary laser level.

First tasks are to set the height of the forms, or the finished floor, build the forms.

I would plan to put 4" minimum crushed limestone under the concrete (or equivalent thickness of concrete in stone). My preference is for 3/4" nominal, washed, because I believe it packs "once" and no opportunity for fines to continue to settle over time. Rough level with laser level within "1 stone" or ~3/4" height variation. Now rent plate compactor, wet the stone but not soak it, compact the stone 2x. Should feel considerably harder under your feet.

Time for vapor barrier. 6 mil plastic is local code here, Id recommend 10mil due to the foot traffic. Time for reinforcement, I recommend rebar although others have used steel wire mesh flat panels.

If the forms are being removed, then I recommend Mazola corn oil or equivalent.

So you have it ready to pour, now you need the crew and the concrete, you can order your own, I'd recommend a 4000psi mix and 5" slump. Don't let the crew mess with the mix on site by adding water.

When the concrete is finished and hard enough to walk on, there's a couple more tasks. Either you want to keep the surface flooded with water or apply a curing sealer. Also, you want to negotiate with the crew to come back the next morning and snap chalklines and cut the control joints, into 10-12' squares.
 
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larrybud

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Great information. Thanks guys. Yes, I plan to hire a crew to do the pour. I have done enough reading to know that i cannot do that my self and and "another guy".

I have a cheap laser level but it doesn't work too well. I'm going to see if i can make a water level.
 
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ford33

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Amazon shows the book WSSIx99 referenced as out of stock. It was $166.59 when they sold it. Yeah, you don't want to buy it.
 

ard

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You said you are on a slope so water isn't an issue....

DO make sure that water running DOWN the slope is directed around the site far away from the building site. Having a 4 ft wide path around the uphill side of the foundation may not do it- water can move underground and get to the solids under the site. Grade away from the building site as far as you can on the uphill side.
 

My Old Tools

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Very nice. Did you do the footings because of the slope or because of the clay?

The footings were dug into virgin earth to start. Then stem walls were poured on top of the footings. Then backfill and compaction. Then the slab. The slope is 49 inches front to back. I would say the slope was the driving factor.
 

ssdave

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I'd say that your wheel rolling the fill to compact red clay will essentially guarantee slab failure. If you want to try to see if it will work, you can have a materials testing company come out, take a sample, run a lab density test, and test the in-place density to verify how well your compaction compares to the lab density. If by some incredible luck, you had the clay at the right moisture level, and rolled it enough, in thin enough lifts to work, the testing will verify that. If it doesn't test to minimum requirements, there is no remediating it by more compaction; it will have to be removed and replaced with proper compaction done during the replacement.

Clay is one of the hardest materials to compact, and also the material that generally settles the worst. It will appear to be real hard, but often that is just the top few inches, it bridges and compactive effort doesn't go much below the surface. As the moisture level changes in it over time, it shrinks and settles terribly, with resulting slab failure.

Early in my career, I was hired to do a forensic analysis and act as an expert witness against a home builder that had filled about 30 inches at the back of a garage floor that was on a slope. The concrete had settled and cracked severely. He had wheel rolled and then used a plate compactor to pack the clay backfill, and then put some gravel and sand on top before doing the slab. When we demo'd out the concrete and measured, we found that the clay had settled about 6 inches (out of 30" total fill depth) at the back of the garage. That was nearly 25% of the initial clay thickness. That was an extreme case, but 10% shrinkage is fairly common, and enough to cause extreme concrete slab failure.

Personally, I'd remove all the fill you have had placed so far, down to original earth, and then replace it with either crushed rock, or re-use the clay, after mixing it to correct water content (based on a test and recommendation from a testing lab) and compacting it with proper equipment for the clay, and testing the results to verify you have got to proper compaction as you go along. Truthfully, it is usually cheaper to just buy 3/4" minus road base gravel to do your backfill than it is to test the clay, and mess around with what needs done to compact it.

You can compact 3/4" minus gravel by visual inspection if you are familiar with doing that, although to be safe you should also have it tested as you compact it. Visually monitoring clay compaction is usually meaningless, even if you have a lot of experience working with that exact material. It is just too hard to judge without testing. I have several million cubic yards of experience in working in large excavation projects on clay soil to back up that opinion. All of that experience was with lab controlled samples and on-site testing, and several years of that was with me running the nuclear guage doing the field testing and adjusting the field procedures to meet the compaction specs.
 
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larrybud

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I'd say that your wheel rolling the fill to compact red clay will essentially guarantee slab failure. If you want to try to see if it will work, you can have a materials testing company come out, take a sample, run a lab density test, and test the in-place density to verify how well your compaction compares to the lab density. If by some incredible luck, you had the clay at the right moisture level, and rolled it enough, in thin enough lifts to work, the testing will verify that. If it doesn't test to minimum requirements, there is no remediating it by more compaction; it will have to be removed and replaced with proper compaction done during the replacement.

Clay is one of the hardest materials to compact, and also the material that generally settles the worst. It will appear to be real hard, but often that is just the top few inches, it bridges and compactive effort doesn't go much below the surface. As the moisture level changes in it over time, it shrinks and settles terribly, with resulting slab failure.

Early in my career, I was hired to do a forensic analysis and act as an expert witness against a home builder that had filled about 30 inches at the back of a garage floor that was on a slope. The concrete had settled and cracked severely. He had wheel rolled and then used a plate compactor to pack the clay backfill, and then put some gravel and sand on top before doing the slab. When we demo'd out the concrete and measured, we found that the clay had settled about 6 inches (out of 30" total fill depth) at the back of the garage. That was nearly 25% of the initial clay thickness. That was an extreme case, but 10% shrinkage is fairly common, and enough to cause extreme concrete slab failure.

Personally, I'd remove all the fill you have had placed so far, down to original earth, and then replace it with either crushed rock, or re-use the clay, after mixing it to correct water content (based on a test and recommendation from a testing lab) and compacting it with proper equipment for the clay, and testing the results to verify you have got to proper compaction as you go along. Truthfully, it is usually cheaper to just buy 3/4" minus road base gravel to do your backfill than it is to test the clay, and mess around with what needs done to compact it.

You can compact 3/4" minus gravel by visual inspection if you are familiar with doing that, although to be safe you should also have it tested as you compact it. Visually monitoring clay compaction is usually meaningless, even if you have a lot of experience working with that exact material. It is just too hard to judge without testing. I have several million cubic yards of experience in working in large excavation projects on clay soil to back up that opinion. All of that experience was with lab controlled samples and on-site testing, and several years of that was with me running the nuclear guage doing the field testing and adjusting the field procedures to meet the compaction specs.

The pad has been in place for several months. Been rained on quite a bit and sun baked, horses run on it as well as my vehicles and other things i drag across it. How long would you say that it takes for it to become naturally compacted.
 

ssdave

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The pad has been in place for several months. Been rained on quite a bit and sun baked, horses run on it as well as my vehicles and other things i drag across it. How long would you say that it takes for it to become naturally compacted.

For clay, I'd say anywhere from 50 years in a wet climate, to several hundred in a dry climate.

What has to happen is the stress on the clay has to exceed what it will ever see in it's final resting state. In a natural environment, all the forces that will consolidate it are essentially moisture changes that cause shrinking/expansion and weight changes in the clay. The other thing that happens to a soil is that it slowly builds "structure", essentially inter-molecular bonds between the soil particles. Those take hundreds of years to fully form.

In an under-slab condition, it has the potential to have two things happen. One is that it will not have as much water reaching it, and it will dry out. When it dries out, the area occupied by water is now voids, and the molecular attraction between the clay molecules decreases. The decrease in strength, combined with the voids, allows it to settle.

The second thing that can happen is that covering the clay with a floor will prevent it from evaporating moisture to the air, and it will become more moist. If it is more moist than the condition it was in when the floor was placed, the clay becomes more plastic, and has more weight. That combination will cause it to settle. Unless it is a swelling clay, in which case it could expand.

To naturally compact clay soils in a shorter period of time, the only thing that is effective is to pile a huge weight onto them. Sometimes areas of clay are compacted by piling 20 to 30 feet of fill on them, leaving that for a year or two, and then taking the clay off. You will have loaded the underlying soil to a much greater extent than it will ever see in it's service life, and essentially taken out all the potential settlement. I've seen this effectively used on roadways in wet areas, where taking out the clay, drying it, and replaceing it with proper compaction is impractical. But, in your case, it would probably be impractical also.

There is really no good substitute for proper compaction, in small lifts (6" or less) in clay.
 

wssix99

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Amazon shows the book WSSIx99 referenced as out of stock. It was $166.59 when they sold it. Yeah, you don't want to buy it.

Well, it's $30 through the publisher and the link I posted. It's still legal to purchase things from companies other than Amazon. lol
 

wssix99

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A 30 x 40 foot building slab is a large project. Do you realize laying the concrete will require a large crew to get it finished before the starts to cure?

Great point. Here is where companies automatically bid a pumping truck, drive up the bid, and don't bother to see if they can do with out one - or use a conveyor instead...
 

850xpeps

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Great point. Here is where companies automatically bid a pumping truck, drive up the bid, and don't bother to see if they can do with out one - or use a conveyor instead...



Doing a slab this size isn’t large. This can be handled by 3 guys who know what their doing with no issues in summer. As cooler weather comes it allows for a bit more time. If you’ve never done cement before just hire someone it’s not worth it. A pour like that doesn’t need anything more than a truck as long as it has access on 2 opposing sides.
 

ahaugh

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I'm about to put up a 30x40 mueller building aswell. My contractor wants to use standard road base cletche. What are yalls thoughts on that?
 
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