shop spectators

[48548]

Then the necessity to rush is so... to be available in case a new job comes through the door. I'm guessing this wouldn't be a problem if you are the only tech.

What I don't understand yet is how the competition among techs works.

Why rush for 6 hours just to stand around for 34 hours?

Because you don't know how much work is going to come in, and you might need to be free for your next job.

 

[herbet99]

Now that people are keeping cars longer due to the economy they want to save a buck and go to Joe-independent now.

Or maybe they want to go where they feel like they can ask questions.

 

[herbet99]

Because you don't know how much work is going to come in, and you might need to be free for your next job.

Are there that many walk-ins at a dealership? I would have thought that most places require an appointment.

 

[stricht8]

I love to watch. Its just enjoying. I've actually learned a thing or two that way. I did it more when I was a teenager and absolutely fascinated with cars and how they work. I do most of my own repairs now except for major stuff. I try not to watch too hard because I don't want the mechanic to think that I don't trust him. It really is just about fascination more than anything. I also like to see what tools the pros are using. This interests me more at this point.

 

[poprockcrusher]

That's pretty funny... need to find that sign for my garage

Chevy dealer about 45 in north of here in Newport News used to have a "Vette Shop" that consisted of 4 bays and a Master Corvette Technician named Mike Arnold. It was the only place I've ever been 100% comfortable leaving my car (other than a performance shop). Mike would take the time to chat with me about my car and discuss the issues/TSBs etc. etc. that were in the system. He actually respected the fact that I knew the car inside and out and was coming to him b/c I had a warranty on it. I remember him saying that the real money is made by the guys doing basic lube/brake/service jobs and that the warranty rates paid to diagnose a complex electrical gremlin in a car like a Corvette (or any comoplex modern car) doesn't provide a very good return on the time invested.

I don't trust dealer mechanics because I've been around them enough to know the noobs are lazy and incompetent, they don't care enough to check torque settings or do a job w/o damaging the car. They only care about turnover and when working on a car that is someones prized posession that's not acceptable.

Before I found Mike's "vette shop" for warranty work I've had my car joyrided during a state inspection and the door edge chipped when the ***** pulled it on the allignment rack and just flung the door open. Little things like that have lasting effects.

Now I do everything on my own other than things where the tools to do it right cost more than the labor bill. But I also have go-to places that I trust and know how **** I am about my vehicles.

One thing I've found really helps when using a new place/dealer is to type up an outline of what you need done, why, and print the TSB out if applicable. When I got my truck after my grandfather passed I took it in to GM for a laundry list of things before the factory warranty ran out. I had an outline of like 13 items, the symptom/manifestation of the item, and the TSB printed w/ TSB number if there was one. I left that in the truck and showed it to the service writer.

When I got my truck back the tech and written "Thanks... awesome." On my outline/docs. The work was done correctly the first time around and everything was taken care of

KEEP Painting with that broad brush ........people like you are into cutting folks down to size .
I wish you could do your job half as good as I do my JOB !!!

 

[Amos Ives Root]

I bet thousands of automotive techs would argue with that opinion.Cars and trucks are more technical now than ever.When we have to spend half our day using scopes,multimeters and computers to diagnose problems it's hard to say it's not a technical job.These aren't the days of going to work with a pair of vise grips and a ballpein hammer,if they were then most of the guys wanting to watch wouldn't need us in the first place.The last thing I want is some guy hanging over my shoulder while I diag some obscure electrical issue.I'm kinda like Moose,I don't play well with others.Even my coworkers stay out of my way and give me space.

The tools used are not important. It's where the money is coming from. As a repair technician your services are directly marketed to the general public. If you don't want the general public to watch, then you should get a production job and not a service industry job.

Even then, you will still be watched. Unfortunately, I have not encountered a job that does not require you to interact with other people.

How useful is it to chase an obscure electrical issue down in someone elses property? While it may offer the personal satisfaction of doing something that few others can do, it certainly doesn't make any money. The typical automotive technician method is to make an educated guess and replace parts until you find the right one, so why even take these kinds of jobs that you describe?

If you're doing something other people can't do you should want the customer to be there, so that he knows the skills that you have to offer. If not, the experience of the customer is absolutely no different than the part swapper. The customer pays you a lot less money for the same result.

 

[Dust]

So why is there so little work? Are the cars these days that good or are the cars so bad that no one buys them?

A number of reasons. The two main reasons are 1) the dealership labor rate is $120 an hour, and 2) people don't have the money to pay for repairs.

Also, If you only have 8 hours of work in 6 days. Why the rush? is it first come first serve as far as who gets the work?

It's usually first-come-first-serve at my shop, though we get work dispatched by department. However, a couple techs get a car and put it on hold, and then get another one and another one. After a while they have four or five cars stacked up in their repair queue, which takes them out of the pool and shafts the other techs. There's a huge problem with morale at my shop because of that, especially since those greedy techs take all the customer pay work and leave the **** warranty work for the rest.

It's a good day if a tech can flag six hours at my shop. I'm hourly, so I don't have to worry too much, but I work as if I'm on flat rate, so I don't have to get accustomed to it when I go on commission. That means I'm hustling and churning out as many cars as I can. Sometimes I beat time, sometimes I don't. At least it's good practice.

Also, auto repair is very much a customer service field. You may be doing technical work and need many different skills, but in the end your goal is a happy customer. It doesn't matter if you can hop up a big block Chevy to run low tens or completely rebuild a fuel injection system with your eyes closed, if you don't get rid of the tiny squeak in the door hinge that the customer wanted you to fix, you have failed in making the customer happy. I learned that working retail for six years; keep the customer happy, and they'll keep coming back, cash in hand.

 

[krusty the clown]

As a repair technician your services are directly marketed to the general public.

it's the shops reputation that's marketed to to public.

If you don't want the general public to watch, then you should get a production job and not a service industry job.

if i wanted the public to watch i would have become a actor or a baseball played. it's not a performace art. and flatrate is very much production work.

I have not encountered a job that does not require you to interact with other people.

it's the service advisors job to interact with customers. that is the reason they are there, so i can continue to produce billable hours.

How useful is it to chase an obscure electrical issue down in someone elses property? While it may offer the personal satisfaction of doing something that few others can do, it certainly doesn't make any money.

no it doesn't make money. but it is part of the job description, i'm required to fix anything that comes through the door. this is part of the industries problems......the guy who can fix cars generally makes less than the guy who gets ball joints and brake jobs. bu that is a different issue.

The typical automotive technician method is to make an educated guess and replace parts until you find the right one, so why even take these kinds of jobs that you describe?

typical method? give me a break........thats insulting to those of us who work in the field. apparantly you have the impression that we use a ouji board. the guy's that guess and throw parts are looked down upon inside the industry as much as they are by the general public. to make a statement like that show's ingnorance and how much distrust you have for us. if thats the case i'm not going to make you a happy customer, i'm better off without you.

If you're doing something other people can't do you should want the customer to be there, so that he knows the skills that you have to offer.

fixing it right the first time isn't enough? the pay system for the indusrty will have to change if it becomes my job to be a show pony, technician and customer service representative since i'll be wearing more hats. currently i'm only being paid to do one and that pay is based on PRODUCTION.

If not, the experience of the customer is absolutely no different than the part swapper.

the experience is judged by fixing it right the first time. the parts swapper's rarly achieve this so your statment makes no sense.

The customer pays you a lot less money for the same result.

of course the customer pay's less money when it's diagnosed and repaired properly the first time. but the amount he customer pay's is the same whether you watch or not........but it should cost more if i'm going to entertain you and educate you. but as it stands right now i'm just going to make less money because you are slowing me down.



you sound as if you know very little about the auto repair business and the flat rate system. the whole thing needs to be fixed but until then it's the service writers job to interact with the customer NOT the mechanics. i wish all of you could trade jobs with me for a while, so you could understand where we are coming from. it looks a little different from this side of the fence.

 

[Joe69]

The typical automotive technician method is to make an educated guess and replace parts until you find the right one, so why even take these kinds of jobs that you describe?

That's not how I do it. It's what troubleshooting is all about. I enjoy troubleshooting, it's challenging and rewarding.

Joe

 

[kaffine]

How useful is it to chase an obscure electrical issue down in someone elses property? While it may offer the personal satisfaction of doing something that few others can do, it certainly doesn't make any money. The typical automotive technician method is to make an educated guess and replace parts until you find the right one, so why even take these kinds of jobs that you describe?

If you're doing something other people can't do you should want the customer to be there, so that he knows the skills that you have to offer. If not, the experience of the customer is absolutely no different than the part swapper. The customer pays you a lot less money for the same result.

Knowing how and actually troubleshooting problems is what separates Technicians from mechanics. The pay scale really needs to be changed. Those that are doing basic work should not be making more than those that are doing advanced troubleshooting. I have fixed trucks that several mechanics and a field engineer for the factory couldn't fix. Cruise control would turn itself on and then accelerate the truck. The only thing I got was one of the lead techs came up to me and said good job. I repaired a $45k truck that otherwise would have gone to a junkyard and all I got was a good job. Thankfully I was hourly at the time although I would have probably made more flipping burgers than what I was making as an apprentice.

In my experience not many mechanics troubleshoot. Last shop I worked in we had a mechanic say an engine was seized. They ordered the engine a turned out one of the shift forks was broken and the truck was stuck in gear. Thankfully they gave it to another Tech to change the engine and he double checked and found out it was the trans before replacing the engine. I've also had a truck towed from an engine shop to my shop saying the problem wasn't an engine problem. The only problem was the truck was out of fuel. This is why people don't trust mechanics.

 

[rakesdl]

I agree. I've had a car damaged too many times by someone at a dealer. The response is usually "I didn't do it." I'd rather prevent them from putting a part/tool/tester on my roof than complain about it afterwards and then have to take out the scratches/dents.

Fortunately I've been doing my own stuff for nearly ten years- it is too much stress to take the cars somewhere else!

I have to say that I agree with this, If you want my business I will be there or you will not work on it. I do not get in the way or talk to the guy working on the car unless he begins the conversation. It's not that I don't trust the business (if I didn't I would not be there in the first place) It's just that it's my car and I want to make sure what is done and that I approve of the work being done. Im sorry if this make you feel like being in a fish bowl, that's not my intention, I would like to know the person working on my car and feel comfortable with them.

 

[Shadowdog500]

I used to work in a shop and know there are different level of mechanics, and some should have their tools taken away. I've also seen paperwork screw-ups where the wrong car gets the wrong work done. I saw one of our pissed off mechanic floor a car in neutral till something broke. This was the same guy that I hid in the bathroom whenever the snap on guy showed up looking for his money. I'll never forget the time I saw one of the the body men bang in a rusty area on the front of a 50's t-bird, and put putty over it. Then he joked to the other guy and said "I'll guess we will see this guy again in a few years"

Just to balance this post I must say I've also seen some incredible talented work. One time back in the early 80's I saw one of the old guys in the body shop make a quarter panel from a single sheet of metal. he was hammering on that sheet of metal for most of the day, but when he was done it looked perfect. The soda machine was in the body shop, and I bought allot of sodas that day just to watch this guy work, unfortunately I didn't get much done that day.

I only take my my car to the dealer for warranty work, and I always watch since I don't know the mechanic from Adam.

If there is something that I just wont touch, like a trans. I take it to a single mechanic who i know and trust, and I don't need to look.

Chris

 

[Moose-LandTran]

It's quite funny, the divide between those who are mechanics/technicians and those who clearly are not.


As Krusty says, we're all crooks and thieves..

 

[Amos Ives Root]

It's quite funny, the divide between those who are mechanics/technicians and those who clearly are not.


As Krusty says, we're all crooks and thieves..

If you make it a point to never interact with the customers, how would they know which one you are?

 

[Moose-LandTran]

If you make it a point to never interact with the customers, how would they know which one you are?

As a mechanic, my job is to fix cars. I aint looking to be their mate.

 

[scofo]

We are the ones hunched over, limping out to our old pick up trucks at the end of a 10+ hour day, hoping like hell we flagged at least 8hrs.

 

[caper]

If you make it a point to never interact with the customers, how would they know which one you are?

I don't care if they know who I am.If they know who I am it's just one more person I have to avoid talking to when I run into them somewhere other than work.One less person who figures they know me enough to call me at home and ask me about the problem they're having with their car at 10pm Sunday night.And yes it happens.Unlisted phone numbers are a blessing.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

I don't care if they know who I am.If they know who I am it's just one more person I have to avoid talking to when I run into them somewhere other than work.One less person who figures they know me enough to call me at home and ask me about the problem they're having with their car at 10pm Sunday night.And yes it happens.Unlisted phone numbers are a blessing.

Aint that the truth.

 

[krusty the clown]

If you make it a point to never interact with the customers, how would they know which one you are?

i am employed by an independent businessman. he has the reputation for good and honest work. it is his name on the sign.......not mine. he would not have me working for him if i weren't good and honest. if you trust him........you trust me.


i do interact with customers and have a following. i will stop and say hi and BS for a minute but don't just hang around and stop me from working or even worse, distract me. the bolt i forget because you're distracting me MIGHT be on your car. (there were no bolts left loose during the typing of this message).

 

[Shadowdog500]

As Krusty says, we're all crooks and thieves..

No, but there are some crooks and thieves out there, as well as incompetent
mechanics. When someone goes to a new shop they don't know what they are getting.

I'm sure you have met a mechanic or two in your career that you wouldn't let near your car.

Chris

 

[scofo]

[QUOTE

I'm sure you have met a mechanic or two in your career that you wouldn't let near your car.
[/QUOTE]

That's the beauty of being a Tech, I don't NEED to let someone else near my vehicle. I can do the diagnosis, repair and quality control all by my lonesome. I don't need excuses like I don't have the time or the tools. I make time or buy the tools.

How much disposable time do you spectators have during a workday anyhow? Sometimes parts aren't available for a day or two, if it needs parts.

Do you ask the service writer to call you as soon as the parts arrive so you can snuggle up to the window and make sure thru some kinda "Time Travel" you could stop damage before it occurs?

You wanna help the process? Give a good description of the symptom you're concerned with and a good phone # so my Service writer can contact you.

Oh yea, if you want your intermittent problem solved don't show up at 3pm friday afternoon after playing video games all night and sleeping in and expect me to stay late fixing the problem with YOUR car.

Wow, that was therapeutic

 

[poprockcrusher]

If I had the money my customers seem to have . I would just by myself a new car every 2 years and not sweat who is working on my car . Warranty pays the rental car bill .
If you are paying A HUNDRED BUCKS an hour , for a lot of things that "anyone" can do .. I mean - who is the fool here ?

 

[Shadowdog500]

I'm glad you feel good this thread is therapeutic, but you didn't answer my question!

Let me rephrase it. I'm sure in your career you have met a mechanic or two in a shop or dealership who is either incompetent or a crook, who you don't think should be near anyones car.

Are you saying every mechanic at every shop is equally as talented as yourself, and it really don't matter what mechanic people go to?

If your son or daughter needed surgery would you trust taking them to just any doctor, because they all went through med school. Or would you take them to the best one you can find.

BTW, I'm not a spectator. I do all of my own work. If it is something like a transmission that I don't mess with, then I take it to a mechanic I know and trust, and I don't have to look over his shoulder because I KNOW he knows what he is doing. In post 217 I listed some things I personally witnessed by other mechanics when I was turning wrenches. If I take it in for warranty work I also look to make sure I didn't get a bozo.

When I bought my Diesel Excursion I had to get it sent to the back to get it programmed for an additional key. The mechanic was glad I was looking, because I stopped him from replacing the air conditioning compressor. He was handed the wrong slip with the keys.

Chris

 

[poprockcrusher]

Flat rate makes the honest into sneaky little crooks ...but with profit margins down and the elimination of hourly mechanics and guranteed hours , the rip offs are going to get worse , but in this society , we are all stabbing each other in the back .

 

[Shadowdog500]

Flat rate makes the honest into sneaky little crooks ...but with profit margins down and the elimination of hourly mechanics and guranteed hours , the rip offs are going to get worse , but in this society , we are all stabbing each other in the back .

I disagree, Most mechanics take pride in their work and do a good job. flat rate has been around for a long time. The ones who can do good job within flat rate can make a decent living. The ones who can't, need to get a different line of work.

Chris

 

[scofo]

Sorry Chris, didn't see a question to answer, only statements of opinion.

But yea, unfortunately I've worked with guys I was ashamed of, to even call a fellow worker. Despicable to my sensabilities, but somehow empoylable?

Hell no, I am a rare find. Many years experience and took on every job that came in the door so one day I could say " Yea I can do that". Unfortunately it didn't pay off like I thought it would. Don't get me wrong it's good money but I figured it would be more, like a master electrician or plumber or surgeon.

If my offspring needed surgery, how could my presensce in the operating theater change the outcome?


And lastly, If you can't do it ALL than you are a spectator. No hard feelings

 

[Bob Heine]

These days I mostly watch mechanics on TV, not through windows. The ones on Spike seem to like having people watch them. I don't find the window real helpful -- having customer calls monitored on speakers throughout the facility -- now that would be helpful. How'd you like to hear my 89-year old mother inquiring about $180 charge to "sanitize" the A/C ducts. I know a lot of the ripoffs have nothing to do with the mechanic but they are the front line and the only ones the customer gets to watch.

Very few shops have worked on my cars over the past 47 years. The ones that had windows had so many OSHA-EPA-ERA-AEC-SWA postings that you couldn't see what was going on so I usually paced up and down in the parking lot with my head down and my hand in my pocket, looking like a crime victim.

I didn't start out mistrusting the auto industry. I Bought a new GTO in 1968. Invoice had a charge for a tank of gas listed but I ran out six miles from the dealership. At the 1,000 mile check they put a light scratch the length of the car, shared another customer's undercoating with the driver side of my car, removed the cigarette lighter and disconnected four vacuum hoses on the engine. I picked it up just before closing and it was parked in a dark corner of the shop. Brought it back the next day and they swore it was all my doing. The tech had no idea where the disconnected hoses went and suggested that I bring it back when the head mechanic was in. Went to the showroom and removed the lighter from a display car (they didn't have any in the parts department but offered to order one). The shop manual arrived in the mail that day and I never saw the dealer again.

Bought a new Vega GT in 1971 and that was the end of my new car buying. I got to watch that thing disintegrate up close, without a window. Every failure required approval from the district rep before they could fix it under warranty. Every repair took three days longer than promised.

I don't use Lube Chains or anyone else who tells me they can change my oil for less than the cost of the oil and filter. I don't get my brakes done in places that offer to do it for less than the wholesale price of the parts. And that trans fluid machine -- it wipes the sludge off the bottom of the pan how? And cleans the filter how? I'm not watching the mechanic -- I'm watching that machine turn turds into tacos.

The only work anyone besides me does on my cars now is A/C related, alignments and tire mounting/balancing. I can't buy R12 so I have to take it to someone. I let them know up front that I'm happy to pay for an estimate and any testing to localize the leak/failure. Then I wait near the car and when they tell me what's wrong, I take the car home and do the work. Then I do the extras, like replacing the hoses along with the receiver/dryer and compressor. While the compressor is out, I clean the areas behind the compressor. I return to the shop to have it recharged and give the tech a tip.

Last time I went to them, my PT Cruiser A/C wasn't working. They tested it and told me it was the evaporator and it would be $1,500 to replace. I took the evaporator out and saw no sign of a leak (I expected to see some oil). Replaced it anyway (see picture), along with the hoses. Discovered a failure in one of the hoses that may have been the original cause. Took it back to be recharged and tipped the tech. Cost me less than $600 and it is still working properly almost three years later. Would have been less but it was a big job and I rented a car from Hertz for ten days so my wife had something to drive to her hair and nail appointments.

 

[Shadowdog500]

Sorry Chris, didn't see a question to answer, only statements of opinion.

I need to work on my writing skills, because the same thing happened on another one of my posts about having a TV in the shop last week.

If my offspring needed surgery, how could my presensce in the operating theater change the outcome?

You don't need to watch the surgery, but you would at least meet the doctor to get a feel if they are the kind of person you want working on your kid. When someone takes their car to a dealership, they only get to meet the service writer, not the mechanic, so they really don't know if they are getting a good mechanic or the guy who is getting fired after his next screwup. I will admit that most people who are looking in the shop window don't even know what they are looking at.

And lastly, If you can't do it ALL than you are a spectator. No hard feelings

No hard feelings, I don't have the experience or tools to play with the transmissions in a newer car, and I have a guy that I trust for that type of stuff.


Chris

 

[kaffine]

The problem is finding a Tech that will take the time to do the job right the first time. I worked at a truck dealer and one of the recalls on the trucks was to replace the front wheel seals. I was the only one that took the time to put a dial indicator on it and set the wheel bearing. None of them that I did came back with problems. I ended up doing most of them after we had several come back with leaking wheel seals and one that the wheel bearing locked up on because the other mechanics wouldn't set the wheel bearing correctly. If you didn't watch them do the recall how would you know if they set the wheel bearing? I would rather find out because I watched then find out 400 miles later when the front wheel of my truck siezes up when I'm on the freeway.

When I worked at a car dealer we had a recall and one of the mechanics complained about having to show at least 45 minutes flagged on the job he said it only took 25 minutes to do. It paid 1.2 hours. It took me 50 minutes if everything went right. I wanted to know how he was doing them that much faster so I watched him once. He only replaced half the parts the other half went in the trash.

This is the reason I watch anyone that works on my car now. Of course the only time I let someone else work on my car is tires and expensive warranty work. I'm looking into doing my own tires and my warranty is almost up. My car is my most expensive purchase to date you better belive I am protective of it.

 

[Iroc-Z]

Wow this seems vary heated.
When I worked on cars for a living I did not like people watching me work. If I had someone standing at my bay door I would just go work on something else. I didn't have anything to hide it just bothered me. I don't go you your work and sit at your desk watching you work. I think most people watch because they don't trust the person working on there car. IF YOU DON'T TRUST ME THEN I DON'T WANT TO WORK ON YOUR CAR!

 

[wreckercologist]

[/QUOTE]

Oh yea, if you want your intermittent problem solved don't show up at 3pm friday afternoon after playing video games all night and sleeping in and expect me to stay late fixing the problem with YOUR car.[/QUOTE]

This sort of thing seems like it happens every week at work. Oh yeah, they want to pay with a check too.

I had a guy stand over me today for about two hours. He was nice enough and stood well clear. We chatted while I fixed his truck and when he was leaving he gave me a $10.00 tip. He also sounds like he's going to buy another truck from us so while it may be a little irritating at times, it's a nessessary part of my job from time to time. When he buys a new truck, I'll probably build it and that will most likely be about 35 hours.

 

[herbet99]

IF YOU DON'T TRUST ME THEN I DON'T WANT TO WORK ON YOUR CAR!

Isn't trust something you earn?

 

[djjsr]

Isn't trust something you earn?

Bingo!

I once took my car to Sears for tires. While watching the tires being installed, I saw a mechanic doing an oil change remove an oil filter from a car, wash it off in a solvent tank and re-install it. Never went back to that Sears, couldn't trust them.

 

[Shadowdog500]

Are you sure it was a disposable filter assembly, and not a canister style with a replaceable inner element?

+1!! Cartridge filters have been making a comeback in the last five to ten years.

Chris

 

[djjsr]

It was a regular old spin-on filter. Looked all shiney and new after he washed it, well, the outside anyway.

 

[Shadowdog500]

It was a regular old spin-on filter. Looked all shiney and new after he washed it, well, the outside anyway.

I'm sure you know what you saw, but it seems bizarre. I can't think of any way that not replacing the oil filter would mean cash in his pocket unless he was stealing the filter. if anything, it would probably take him longer to change the oil. This is a read headscratcher

Chris

 

[kaffine]

Correct filter not in stock?

 

[LoneGunman]

Not a mechanic but I know exactly where they are coming from. As an electrician I can't count how many times I have the home owner/customer within a foot of me while I'm trying to work in a live panel or on a live circuit. They get told ONCE to back off nicely and let me do my job, if it happens again then I tell them they have two choices, call someone else or leave me alone. I don't need a home owner looking over my shoulder, it's unsafe for me, the home owner/customer and it annoys me.

I had an elderly lady who insisted on standing literally right behind me, breathing on me while she was bending down, her head was three inches away from my face. I'm sitting on the floor trying to troubleshoot a short, I told her she needs to back off, she leaves and then comes back two minutes later. I grab a hot wire with my Kleins and jam it into the side of the grounded box, mind you the room is dark, she couldn't get out of the way fast enough. She left me alone for the time I was there.

I've had home owners grab fish tapes trying to help, I'm fishing from a live panel to wherever and the home owner decides to move my tape which makes the tape hit one of the energized lugs, blew the tape up and scared the 5hit out of the home owner.

I am NOT a people person, I'm respectful to the customer on the job but I don't want to be your friend (so you can all me for side work later) and I don't care about your life story, I get paid and paid quite well to fix your electrical issues, not to teach you how to work on things or listen to your problems.

The previous poster was right, this is therapeutic.

 

[TheGrooveking]

I'm fine with spectators, as long as they are female, over 18 and don't mind serving me beers *******.

TheGrooveking

 

[krusty the clown]

I'm fine with spectators, as long as they are female, over 18 and don't mind serving me beers *******.

TheGrooveking

you have changed my opinion