Should I have used anti seize?

[jgelack]

Great choice on the GB covers. I have them on my Triumph STR and have no issues with them installed without any treatment to the bolts. Saved my engine also on a slow side. They work well!

They really are a great covers!

 

[jgelack]

Personally, I prefer to use anti-seize for any bolts threaded into aluminum. Stainless steel is more prone to galling as well, so I also usually use it with stainless fasteners.

It's probably more info than most care to hear, but you do reduce the torque when adding anti-seize etc. It's not usually a simple 20% reduction though, it can often be quite different. You calculate the required torque reduction by comparing the K value of the original fastener and/or fastener coating with the K value of the lubricant you want to use. You then use that result as your multiplication factor for the torque spec.

It usually falls within the range of 10-35% less torque required for common steel bolts, but even then there are exceptions like graphite which is often closer to 50%. Most threadlockers like Loctite are in the 10% torque reduction range, and anti-seize is usually in the 10%-35% reduction range depending on the brand and type (copper, nickel, regular, etc). The K-value of a lubricant is usually posted in the manufacturer's specs, and fastener K values are usually available from various free engineering charts posted online.

It appears from what I could find, that depending on the source stainless fasteners threaded into aluminum have friction K factors between about 0.25-0.35.

As an example, say your anti-seize has a K value around 0.16. For that combination, if you took the average value I found for a stainless fastener threaded into aluminum and compared it to the anti-seize K value you would get a 0.16/0.30 x 100 = 53% of initial torque rating aka a 47% reduction from the original torque spec.

As you can see, the reduction can be quite significant for some lubricant/bolt material combinations. Just do the same quick calc again, using the K factor of the specific anti-seize you decide to use, and that should get you very close to an ideal torque spec for your setup.

Sounds complicated. I never realized there were so many things to consider. I've learned so much since joining this forum. I'd rather be educated then remain ignorant and hopefully avoid headaches in the future. Thanks again!

 

[fatfillup]

I didn't read every response but a few thoughts. 6 months, I think you will have no problem getting them apart. Second, anytime I am removing a fastener from and aluminum housing or block, I used an impact driver and give them a whack before removing. On small honda engines that had some age, I used to pull the threads out with the bolt especially on head bolts. Since using an impact driver, I have had no problems.

 

[Schurkey]

1. I can't believe that people are claiming that there's "no such thing" as a dry torque spec that doesn't include lube. A quick internet search will show torque charts for "clean, dry" or "Lubed vs. Plain" fasteners. The terminology varies, but the concept is the same.

Here's one:
http://www.portlandbolt.com/technical/bolt-torque-chart/

And another: (dry vs. lubricated)
https://ccs.dogpile.com/ClickHandle...D046CDF46E92C560888205DBE&ap=3&cop=main-title

And another: (Lubricated, zinc plated, plain/dry)
http://www.repairengineering.com/bolt-torque-chart.html

...and that's just the first three hits on my search.

2. As has been said earlier, any threaded fastener you install should have either lube, sealer, or thread locker on it. The choice of lube, or the choice of thread locker, or the choice of sealer is up to the person doing the assembly. Damn near nothing goes together "dry" if you want to service it again later. Yes, you'll adjust the torque value accordingly based on the manufacturer of the chemical product's recommendation--or experience.

3. If that were my bike, I'd shitcan those stainless fasteners in favor of something with more strength. Stainless fasteners are typically about equivalent in strength to "Grade 2" hardware store junk bolts. You're installing crash protection. I'd want the guards to be put on the bike with hardware that's not going to fail. But that's me.

 

[PFSard]

Some great posts here. Enough to inspire me to learn more about Anti-Seize. I encountered this read, which I found quite informative.

Understanding The True Value Of Anti-Seize
http://www.impomag.com/article/2013/04/understanding-true-value-anti-seize

 

[WhiffySpark]

Would copper antiseize be better?

 

[Adam.C]

1. I can't believe that people are claiming that there's "no such thing" as a dry torque spec that doesn't include lube. A quick internet search will show torque charts for "clean, dry" or "Lubed vs. Plain" fasteners. The terminology varies, but the concept is the same.

Here's one:
http://www.portlandbolt.com/technical/bolt-torque-chart/

And another: (dry vs. lubricated)
https://ccs.dogpile.com/ClickHandle...D046CDF46E92C560888205DBE&ap=3&cop=main-title

And another: (Lubricated, zinc plated, plain/dry)
http://www.repairengineering.com/bolt-torque-chart.html

...and that's just the first three hits on my search.

2. As has been said earlier, any threaded fastener you install should have either lube, sealer, or thread locker on it. The choice of lube, or the choice of thread locker, or the choice of sealer is up to the person doing the assembly. Damn near nothing goes together "dry" if you want to service it again later. Yes, you'll adjust the torque value accordingly based on the manufacturer of the chemical product's recommendation--or experience.

3. If that were my bike, I'd shitcan those stainless fasteners in favor of something with more strength. Stainless fasteners are typically about equivalent in strength to "Grade 2" hardware store junk bolts. You're installing crash protection. I'd want the guards to be put on the bike with hardware that's not going to fail. But that's me.

Try to hear what I'm saying: Those websites, even the US military have used numbers published by people like me, and me specifically. We in industry determine torque values empirically. Bolt stretch is like 20% of the applied torque. The other 80% is friction. Think about that for a second. Not only dont we develop numbers for corroded lug nuts or the like, our numbers are based on our tools and the techniques in our process specs.

Torque is not science. It's art. A bolted joint is almost too complicated to analyze. That's why we test. I'm telling you, by our common definition of dry, there's no such thing as a "dry torque" spec. Chalky dry bolts are very complicated.

We did a test and measured bolt preload. The average preload of our sample was virtually identical with lubed or dry slightly corroded bolts. But the std deviation of the dry sample was 5x greater than the lubed. This is caused by the stick slip phenomenon.

Repeating-
1) there are no torque values for corroded fasteners. No industry tests for that because it's not our reality.
2) always lube everything. Light oil on clean parts use the dry numbers. For sealants, antiseize, grease or some lock tights, use the wet numbers.

 

[jgelack]

This is too complicated for me,lol! The manufacturer of the engine covers I installed called for the bolts to be torqued to 10Nm. I plan on using the regular silver Permatex. Can anyone tell me how much I should reduce this to after applying the anti-seize? Sorry for so many questions.

 

[sberry]

Bolt stretch is like 20% of the applied torque. The other 80% is friction.

I don't know anything about it but agree.

by our common definition of dry, there's no such thing as a "dry torque" spec. Chalky dry bolts are very complicated.

This is the way it was splained to me, they stick when they shouldn't.

We did a test and measured bolt preload. The average preload of our sample was virtually identical with lubed or dry slightly corroded bolts. But the std deviation of the dry sample was 5x greater than the lubed. This is caused by the stick slip phenomenon

. Whoops, I said that above and they outright dry seize and even weld under speed and pressure.

Repeating-
1) there are no torque values for corroded fasteners. No industry tests for that because it's not our reality.
2) always lube everything. Light oil on clean parts use the dry numbers. For sealants, antiseize, grease or some lock tights, use the wet numbers.

Agree totally. The only thing I disagree with Adam on is he feels an F80 does a better job with them than other ratchets do but that much is a matter of opinion, the rest of this is fact.
I had a guy work for me was a master above me in a sense for sure and he asked me, anything you got that you want he way you want, I said, and he about the only guy I don't have to hound, spray all the bolts here.
After we rework some stuff he says, you make me a believer, wish someone would have poked me some about it earlier. I don't kno0w **** about the math here but for some shirt tail guestimation but got lotso sperience with nuts and bolts and own a lot of them a long time,. work on them again and out seizure problem is very rare even on equipment in severe conditions, most of it comes loose good again and stays tight without addin fussy colored stuff to it all.
I read it in a book a time or 2 but did a fair amount of drinking with a couple engineer types. As the man says, its an art to some extent, we want to do it slow without sticking. Bout as simple as that.

 

[Lotek]

You could use LanoCote instead of standard antiseize, not as messy and the boat riggers I know swear by it...

But yeah, nothing gets assembled 'dry', just asking for trouble, and Loctite will keep the corrosion at bay in addition to it's stated function.

 

[Know Wosad]

If you're going to use anti seize on a bike use a non metallic marine version.
Why does everything on this forum wind up in the ring ?
Fukkin dorks.

 

[Lotek]

If you're going to use anti seize on a bike use a non metallic marine version.
Why does everything on this forum wind up in the ring ?
Fukkin dorks.

New to the internet?

 

[Dr Stan]

Learned about Never Seize when working in a FL boat yard. Best thing since sliced bread. It's also good for almost eliminating oxidation on vehicle battery terminals.

 

[sberry]

Its too messy for me, I am a clean mechanic.

 

[Derek420]

Your fine you don't need anything as I boubt there was anything on them from factory. Ive take steel bolts out of aluminium over 30 years old in junk yards and never had an issue only issue I've ever had were lug nuts and brake bolts or rims sieze up and that's because brake area is highly caustic from heat, dust from pads, dirt, rain, salt you name it, I've had many bikes and never had an issue and would even think about it or waste time and not worry about something so small, steel to steel is worste for seizing up from rust, alumimum don't rust at most I always use penetrate oil for steel specialy old stuff.

 

[Mooky]

As with most things on the internet, this question has been answered and beaten to death over and over. The engineering behind the torque values is defined in this post: Do your math and find the answer

The torque required for a bolted joint design comes from a long string of calculations, but boils down to a simple linear equation.

T = Wp x K x dn
Where T=torque; Wp=fastener preload; K=torque coeff; dn=diameter

The factor that changes with dry vs lubricated fasteners is the "torque coefficient" and is published for a variety of cases. Various values exist, mine are taken from DuPont Engineering Specification (10 pages of calcs). Examples:

Dry steel fasteners: K=0.20
Lightly oiled steel: K=0.15
Cad Plated: K=0.14
Anti Seize on steel: K=0.13 (as published by Bostik for their Never Seez products)
Graphite & mineral oil: K=0.10

Using Never Seize versus dry uncoated steel, multiply the specified torque by 0.65.

A very light coating on the threads only to prevent corrosion and/or galling is all that's needed. As is the case with most Anti Seize applications, a little goes a long way.

 

[Fcvapor05]

Yes. No such thing as a "dry torque" value. The numbers come from industry where every fastener has something on it. Our general definition of dry is a used car's oxidized or slightly rusty lugs. That's not something industry would test or develop numbers for. We know such fasteners exhibit something called stick slip that causes the torque to be either too high or too low.

Moral of the story is, always lube. Just a little oil is usually sufficient. Even WD-40 is better than nothing. And when you want accurate torques, your parts must be in like new condition, clean, lightly oiled, make sure under the head is clean and lightly oiled. Then use the dry torque value. Wet numbers are for heavy greases, sealants etc

You are wrong, and this is bad advice.

FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS of whatever you're assembling. There are cases where lubrication of the fasteners is good, and was intended by the designer, and cases where dry fasteners are good, and intended by the designer.

Forget exactly were I found the information, but I recall "dry" being clean, dry, and uncoated threads.......

You recall correctly.

Try to hear what I'm saying: Those websites, even the US military have used numbers published by people like me, and me specifically. We in industry determine torque values empirically. Bolt stretch is like 20% of the applied torque. The other 80% is friction. Think about that for a second. Not only dont we develop numbers for corroded lug nuts or the like, our numbers are based on our tools and the techniques in our process specs.

Torque is not science. It's art. A bolted joint is almost too complicated to analyze. That's why we test. I'm telling you, by our common definition of dry, there's no such thing as a "dry torque" spec. Chalky dry bolts are very complicated.

We did a test and measured bolt preload. The average preload of our sample was virtually identical with lubed or dry slightly corroded bolts. But the std deviation of the dry sample was 5x greater than the lubed. This is caused by the stick slip phenomenon.

Repeating-
1) there are no torque values for corroded fasteners. No industry tests for that because it's not our reality.
2) always lube everything. Light oil on clean parts use the dry numbers. For sealants, antiseize, grease or some lock tights, use the wet numbers.

Again, you're wrong and this is bad advice.

Follow the directions in the manual of the equipment you are working on.

 

[T45]

Using Never Seize versus dry uncoated steel, multiply the specified torque by 0.65.

motorcycles don't use unplated steel fasteners

 

[leg17]

Personally, I prefer to use anti-seize for any bolts threaded into aluminum. Stainless steel is more prone to galling as well, so I also usually use it with stainless fasteners.

What he said.
Wanna be safe? or sorry?

 

[N_Jay]

Lots of great information.

I still disagree that "oiled" threads should be torqued to "dry" specs.
If you are dealing with a critical piece, and anywhere near the yield point of the fastener, threads, or gaskets, you are OVERTIGHTENING.

 

[Adam.C]

This is too complicated for me,lol! The manufacturer of the engine covers I installed called for the bolts to be torqued to 10Nm. I plan on using the regular silver Permatex. Can anyone tell me how much I should reduce this to after applying the anti-seize? Sorry for so many questions.

Yes. Use 10nm with the anti-seize. 10nm is about 7ftlbs. There will be no bolt stretch associated with that torque. These are just hand tight and barely that. The callout is probably there only as a guide to keep you from stripping out the aluminum or to maintain the shape of whatever you are attaching (not sure what it is). Its so low, I would worry that reducing it further could leave the bolts insufficiently snugged (i.e. unable to squeeze out the excess anti-seize). I'm guessing having bolts rattle out would be bad, yes? Stick with 10nm.

 

[jgelack]

Yes. Use 10nm with the anti-seize. 10nm is about 7ftlbs. There will be no bolt stretch associated with that torque. These are just hand tight and barely that. The callout is probably there only as a guide to keep you from stripping out the aluminum or to maintain the shape of whatever you are attaching (not sure what it is). Its so low, I would worry that reducing it further could leave the bolts insufficiently snugged (i.e. unable to squeeze out the excess anti-seize). I'm guessing having bolts rattle out would be bad, yes? Stick with 10nm.

Thank you! I do understand that when you add something like anti seize to a bolt, you should reduce the torque applied, But with such a low torque spec already recommended, 10nm, I was concerned that reducing it much beyond that point could cause the bolts to eventually work themselves out, which as you said,would be bad. So 10nm it is. Thanks again!!!

 

[Schurkey]

motorcycles don't use unplated steel fasteners

What are these stainless fasteners plated with?

Thank you! I do understand that when you add something like anti seize to a bolt, you should reduce the torque applied, But with such a low torque spec already recommended, 10nm, I was concerned that reducing it much beyond that point could cause the bolts to eventually work themselves out, which as you said,would be bad. So 10nm it is. Thanks again!!!

3. If that were my bike, I'd shitcan those stainless fasteners in favor of something with more strength. Stainless fasteners are typically about equivalent in strength to "Grade 2" hardware store junk bolts. You're installing crash protection. I'd want the guards to be put on the bike with hardware that's not going to fail. But that's me.

I cannot find anywhere in this thread what thread size these bolts are, or the under-head length. How deep are the threads in the engine? (What is the thread engagement?)

Given that virtually all stainless fasteners are about "Grade 2" (a few manage to achieve almost Grade 5 status, and only ARP to my knowledge has anything approaching "high strength" stainless bolts) I'd be VERY careful about over-torquing.

 

[sberry]

Lots of great information.

I still disagree that "oiled" threads should be torqued to "dry" specs.
If you are dealing with a critical piece, and anywhere near the yield point of the fastener, threads, or gaskets, you are OVERTIGHTENING.

Snappy torque wrench manual of old says, all values for clean lightly lubed threads.

 

[sberry]

You are wrong, and this is bad advice.

FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS of whatever you're assembling. There are cases where lubrication of the fasteners is good, and was intended by the designer, and cases where dry fasteners are good, and intended by the designer.



You recall correctly.



Again, you're wrong and this is bad advice.

Follow the directions in the manual of the equipment you are working on.

There may be super specific equipment in special service manuals but most of this is common stuff and the reason they come up with dry on cars is they probably gave up on trying to train all the chimps to do it the same way.

 

[jgelack]

What are these stainless fasteners plated with?



I cannot find anywhere in this thread what thread size these bolts are, or the under-head length. How deep are the threads in the engine? (What is the thread engagement?)

Given that virtually all stainless fasteners are about "Grade 2" (a few manage to achieve almost Grade 5 status, and only ARP to my knowledge has anything approaching "high strength" stainless bolts) I'd be VERY careful about over-torquing.

The bolts are listed as M6x25,30&35 A2 Stainless Steel. Torque spec is 10Nm. Nothing in instructions about applying anti seize of thread locker. I've tried to contact the manufacturer a couple of times, but have gotten no response. According to their website, the reason they chose this hardware is that in the event of a crash, these bolts would tend to bend rather than shear off, thereby keeping the engine cover on the engine where it can do its job.

 

[T45]

What are these stainless fasteners plated with?

Schurkey, we're talking about friction based on surface material. stainless steel fasteners are coated in stainless steel -- so does not share the same surface that 'bare steel' plain fasteners have.

See above for the discussion of galling, etc. All that impacts friction, which puts the math in a different place. Point being all that is relevant discussion. So it helps to sharpen the pencil, but one still needs to thinking sharp as well.

 

[Fcvapor05]

There may be super specific equipment in special service manuals but most of this is common stuff and the reason they come up with dry on cars is they probably gave up on trying to train all the chimps to do it the same way.

I am one of the guys that makes decisions like 'should this fastener use lubricant, and what should the torque value be specified as in the manual'.

These decisions are not made based on anything related to the chimps. They're engineered the way they are for a reason.

If you want to minimize fastener failures in any application, use OEM fasteners and install them as directed in the manual.

 

[sberry]

They give up trying to train people to do it right. A good share of people working on cars as "mechanics" have little to no training and are turned loose on your car by business types selling ****. They don't know 5# from 50.

 

[sberry]

They used to give torque values for the important stuff, today we got it for everything, most of the time it tells the guy something about its nature but today cant snug a sheet metal screw or a toilet bowl bolt down without a spec.