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pauls_workshop

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Guys, I've discovered a love of Starrett measuring tools the last few years and have a couple items now, like a combination square and some rulers. Also a few Brown and Sharpe and a Precision Engineering rule. I want to know about everything they ever made! Show what you have Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, or other worthy competitors, new or vintage! - Paul
 
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Cypherian

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Pauls ,

I have a fair collection sometime I will post pics of them . But if you go to Starrett's website you can order a small history book on them, decimal / fraction conversion posters and such for free if you like their stuff might be something for you to have.

Cypher
 

larry_g

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Do you realize that for the machinists on the board your asking to see a large portion of their tools. I suggest as as above you get some catalogs aimed at the machine shop and drool over them. Also in the used book store find some old machinist text books and learn what you can. It's a whole new world if you've only done mechanics.

lg
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Packard V8

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For 100 years and more, L.S. Starrett produced beautiful bound catalogs with engraved illustrations and detailed descriptions of every tool they made. The catalogs come up for sale on eBay and are well worth owning.

Some of the tools, such as your combination square, have hardly changed in 100 years.

And yes, as previously mentioned, it would take days to photograph and describe all the machinist tools I've gathered over the years.

FWIW, top-quality Starrett, Browne & Sharp, et al are getting dirt-cheap and thick on the ground. Today, most want metric and digital, so it's possible to buy analog and inch for pennies on the dollar they cost back in the day. As a result, an interested home shop guy can now own more metrology than professional machine shops owned fifty years ago.

jack vines
 
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davethorik

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If I posted all my machinist tools it would literally take days, I have a lot of Starrett, Lufkin, Brown & Sharpe, Mitutoyo, Scherr-Tumico, and others.
 

TK-421

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I don't have any yet, but I've heard they're good measuring devices and plan on picking up some.

My school's tool list says I need a set "T" gauges, I suspect they mean telescoping gauges, like for using to measure the inside of an engine bore? Am I correct in that?

Also, what sizes should I get? I was thinking about getting this set http://www.starrett.com/metrology/p...n-Hand-Tools/Precision-Measuring-Tools/S579GZ but I don't know how useful those smaller gauges will be. So if I can figure out what they are, what I'll use them for, and what sizes I need, I might just pick up the individual sizes I'll actually use.
 

Packard V8

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FWIW, I paid the price for Starrett telescoping gauges because I wanted to stay with that brand. However there's zero inherent accuracy in a T-gauge. It must be measured with a micrometer and that's where the accuracy comes in.

Just starting out, you might want to buy HF-quality T-gauges and shop for really good micrometers.

jack vines
 

larry_g

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I don't have any yet, but I've heard they're good measuring devices and plan on picking up some.

My school's tool list says I need a set "T" gauges, I suspect they mean telescoping gauges, like for using to measure the inside of an engine bore? Am I correct in that?

Also, what sizes should I get? I was thinking about getting this set http://www.starrett.com/metrology/p...n-Hand-Tools/Precision-Measuring-Tools/S579GZ but I don't know how useful those smaller gauges will be. So if I can figure out what they are, what I'll use them for, and what sizes I need, I might just pick up the individual sizes I'll actually use.

It depends on what your going to school for, small engines or big diesels. The small ones are used for lifter bores and the large one for cylinders. I'm going to disagree with Packard on getting cheap ones as some of the cheap ones are so rough they will not slide smoothly, they jump making life difficult. I would suggest you be on the lookout for used equipment as said above the used market is flooded with old tools.

lg
no neat sig line
 

DBendr

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I have a little of all. I like my Mitutoyo stuff as good as any.Solid digitals if you like that type of thing.
Brown & Sharpe are a yawn and Starretts dials are my favorite.
Any of it is mechanics grade.
1/2 tenth and mechanikkin don't sleep together.Half of us dorks get by with Plastigauge(frightening with real horsepower)
 

Davefr

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Has anyone here worked for Starrett or familiar with their manufacturing?

Do they still manufacture tools in Athol, MA like they've been doing for over a century.

I know there's been criticism over some of their Chinese tools but I thought they still do quite a bit here in the USA.
 
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pauls_workshop

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Hey Guys, maybe just post some of your FAVORITES and why? Or just talk about them. I know Starrett makes and has made lots of different things. But what are those particularly special things you have and love by them? Or, if competitors, which things by other companies competing with Starrett would you similarly love? It would be nice to establish what tools are the BEST for function and then also what tools by anyone are the best VALUE for the same function? It is a chat board after all. I like to learn and I'm sure others on GJ do too from the experts. Sometimes I contribute and lead, others I listen and learn! - Paul
 
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Adam.C

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Has anyone here worked for Starrett or familiar with their manufacturing?

Do they still manufacture tools in Athol, MA like they've been doing for over a century.

I know there's been criticism over some of their Chinese tools but I thought they still do quite a bit here in the USA.

Yes, they still manufacture in mass. They have a plant in China. They service Asia and Europe with cost competitive stuff. You can get some China made Starrett here. It's spec sheets indicate the difference, but the part numbers are the same, which confuses people. They tried using China for digitals. Really cost them customers. The new digital calipers are made in the US with Swiss electronics. I have them and they are magnificent, every bit as good as Mits or better.
 

TK-421

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It depends on what your going to school for, small engines or big diesels. The small ones are used for lifter bores and the large one for cylinders. I'm going to disagree with Packard on getting cheap ones as some of the cheap ones are so rough they will not slide smoothly, they jump making life difficult. I would suggest you be on the lookout for used equipment as said above the used market is flooded with old tools.

lg
no neat sig line

I'm going to school to work on regular cars, no diesel stuff for me as my goal is to figure out some way to get a job in a tuner shop, I'm more interested in modifying cars and making them faster rather than fixing broken stuff.

But I am right in that "T" gauges are the telescoping gauges?

I'll have to keep an eye on eBay to see if I can find some used ones for cheaper than new, though I don't have any issue paying new prices if they're one of the better companies and they make a quality product that will last a long time.
 

davethorik

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Here's an example: Starrett hermaphrodite caliper. I use this quite a bit to quick check hole locations to an edge of the part.
 

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ibedayank

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I'm going to school to work on regular cars, no diesel stuff for me as my goal is to figure out some way to get a job in a tuner shop, I'm more interested in modifying cars and making them faster rather than fixing broken stuff.

But I am right in that "T" gauges are the telescoping gauges?

I'll have to keep an eye on eBay to see if I can find some used ones for cheaper than new, though I don't have any issue paying new prices if they're one of the better companies and they make a quality product that will last a long time.

thats funny.... if you think you won't have to fix broke stuff search you tube for Dyno motor explodes.... guys that mod for more power break more parts then the soccer mom driving her minivan around town
 

Adam.C

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You can get great telescoping gauges and hole gauge sets pretty cheap on eBay. Look for any old US brand like Lufkin. T gages do not measure. You set them, then measure with a mic. So you need gauges AND mics. When working on engines, bearings sometimes wear unevenly, and you can learn to detect that with a T-gauge alone just by feel.

Stuff to buy from Starrett:
Starrett invented the combination square. I guess everybody needs one. I think most people only use the square head. There are 2 versions, a cast head (S#11), and a forged head (S#33). The forged head has a smooth black finish and hardened faces. The cast used to have a patterned texture. Modern cast heads have a wrinkle paint finish. Both are good. My preference is for the pre and post WWII models. They are often found in good shape used. If you are looking for accuracy, the forged #33 models are probably the better choice. For the best deal, assemble your own set. I bought new satin scales for mine, cleaned up the working surfaces (gently) and touched up the finish with black enamel paint. They look brand new and are dead accurate. The std size will accept new 12,18, and 24" blades in your choice of markings.

I prefer Starrett's ruler markings to all others. It's such a simple thing to get the hash lines just the right length to make them clear and easy to read. But no two companies make identical hash marks and Starrett's are the best imo. One mistake I made early on was cleaning and polishing the blades. When they are clean and shiny they are almost impossible to read. Once they dull a bit, they are easier to read. My personal preference is for the satin chrome models as I find these the easiest to read in any light.

Starretts double squares (S#13) are particularly handy for misc shop layout work. I also like the tiny die makers squares (S#14 or 453). Here's a little known factoid: Starrett used to make smaller versions of their combination squares. These are pretty plentiful second hand. But their scales were a unique size and thickness. The current small combo is now and used to be called a "junior". Tho it looks roughly like the old small combination set, it was always forged (#33J) and it can exchange scales with the S#13-4 square. The junior head never had a scribe with it like the small 4-6" heads had.

I have a set of vintage master squares S#20. These are a wise first purchase. Buy these used if clean, and undented (hopefully not dropped). Check against another master. Clean working surfaces with a super fine Arkansas file to remove burrs. If you don't know how to do this properly, don't attempt it until you are skilled.

Starrett's classic mic, the 436, is a good quality no nonsense tool. There are fancier mics out there, but no quality mics for the $20 you can buy 436s for.

Starretts surface gages are ubiquitous in every shop I've ever been in. You can do a million clever things with a surface gage. I use mine as test indicator stands. There are 3 flavors. The cast iron S#57, a forged model with an angular top S#257, and the tiny #56 which is forged and has a flat top. All are excellent.

Starrett tap handles are excellent, featuring proper jaws.

I like almost everything Starrett makes EXCEPT the last word indicators. I don't love their indicators in general, tho I'd have no hesitation to buy their new digital models. I have 2 sets of adjustable parallels and have yet to use them.
 
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Cypherian

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Here,

Not going post what most everyone in metal work and other such things would have. These probably aren't used much these days by New folks entering into trade careers.

NCM_0368.jpg

Cypherian
 

leg17

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You can get great telescoping gauges and hole gauge sets pretty cheap on eBay. Look for any old US brand like Lufkin. T gages do not measure. You set them, then measure with a mic. So you need gauges AND mics. When working on engines, bearings sometimes wear unevenly, and you can learn to detect that with a T-gauge alone just by feel.

The Self-centering style, as shown in the OP link, are a little smoother to use than the cheaper one-way actions.
When buying used, check the contact faces for flat spots. They will wear after much use.


Starrett tap handles are excellent, featuring proper jaws.

Especially the T-handle types. Best ones commonly available.
The straight handle tap wrenches are not as durable as some of the other makers, such as Greenfield.

Comments in red.
 
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pauls_workshop

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And here's another topic for the thread, photos or not: For WOODWORKING SHOP puposes, rather than metal shop/machining shop purposes, what would be recommended to buy? Equipment setup, verification, etc. and project uses. Starrett or other brands. Best function and best value both (probably different answers). The "workshop" in Pauls_Workshop is woodworking. thx! - Paul
 

Jim C.

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Not enough pictures in this thread.....
 

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Adam.C

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And here's another topic for the thread, photos or not: For WOODWORKING SHOP puposes, rather than metal shop/machining shop purposes, what would be recommended to buy? Equipment setup, verification, etc. and project uses. Starrett or other brands. Best function and best value both (probably different answers). The "workshop" in Pauls_Workshop is woodworking. thx! - Paul

A #20 Master Square should be your first purchase. You'd be surprised how many things you buy for woodworking that should be square and aren't. Buy a used #20 in a convenient size (bigger is better), 12" is ideal, clean it, oil it, and store it away where it won't get wood dust on it. Then get a S#13C used or new (every woodworker's friend) and check that (and everything else) with the #20. Use the #13 to set up your machinery, check fences, and do layout work ( I found my Bosch Miter saw fence wasn't square- which explained why thin boards cut square, but thick boards were off.) The 4" #13A is nice-to-have as well.

I would seriously consider getting a cheap surface plate (like a 9X12) to lap plane blades and chisels on. Once you have that, a surface gage and a test indicator, would be helpful for checking all kinds of stuff. You can get a rusty pre-WW2 Starrett #57 cheap (under $20). And its a fun project to restore.

Also be nice to have a mag base so you can check run-out on your drill press, table saw, even miter saw. Find an old test indicator or 2 (don't get Chinese, their stems and dovetails are non-std).

A combination square set with separate scales for the square head, protractor and center head (if you have a lathe) is pretty darned convenient.

123 blocks are nice to have. You can clamp them into corners. The Chinese ones I bought from Shars were out of square (but 1"X2"X3"- go figure). Didn't need a #20 to find that, but good to have one because you just can't believe someone would ship out of square 123 blocks! I prefer the Suburban tool blocks. They really aren't that expensive new and it might be worth having. They will be one of the squarest things in your shop. Very helpful little item. Sometimes you can get lucky and find these on ebay for cheap. Check them with the #20. Also worth running them across a surface plate under a test indicator.
 

Dave455

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This thread isn't big enough!

I have a Starrett catalogue from about 20 years ago! It's about the size of a phone book!
 
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pauls_workshop

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A #20 Master Square should be your first purchase. You'd be surprised how many things you buy for woodworking that should be square and aren't. Buy a used #20 in a convenient size (bigger is better), 12" is ideal, clean it, oil it, and store it away where it won't get wood dust on it. Then get a S#13C used or new (every woodworker's friend) and check that (and everything else) with the #20. Use the #13 to set up your machinery, check fences, and do layout work ( I found my Bosch Miter saw fence wasn't square- which explained why thin boards cut square, but thick boards were off.) The 4" #13A is nice-to-have as well.

I would seriously consider getting a cheap surface plate (like a 9X12) to lap plane blades and chisels on. Once you have that, a surface gage and a test indicator, would be helpful for checking all kinds of stuff. You can get a rusty pre-WW2 Starrett #57 cheap (under $20). And its a fun project to restore.

Also be nice to have a mag base so you can check run-out on your drill press, table saw, even miter saw. Find an old test indicator or 2 (don't get Chinese, their stems and dovetails are non-std).

A combination square set with separate scales for the square head, protractor and center head (if you have a lathe) is pretty darned convenient.

123 blocks are nice to have. You can clamp them into corners. The Chinese ones I bought from Shars were out of square (but 1"X2"X3"- go figure). Didn't need a #20 to find that, but good to have one because you just can't believe someone would ship out of square 123 blocks! I prefer the Suburban tool blocks. They really aren't that expensive new and it might be worth having. They will be one of the squarest things in your shop. Very helpful little item. Sometimes you can get lucky and find these on ebay for cheap. Check them with the #20. Also worth running them across a surface plate under a test indicator.

Adam, thanks so much for ALL of your comments so far. I need to do some reading and research next to better understand your recommendations. I got one of these so far, vintage: "A combination square set with separate scales for the square head, protractor and center head (if you have a lathe) is pretty darned convenient." I want to get a set up with a dial indicator gage but don't have that yet. - Paul :eyecrazy:
 

TK-421

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thats funny.... if you think you won't have to fix broke stuff search you tube for Dyno motor explodes.... guys that mod for more power break more parts then the soccer mom driving her minivan around town

It's not the fact that I think I won't have to fix broke stuff, it's the fact that I don't want that to be the basis for my job. I want to do more than only fix broken stuff. I want to take your basic car, work on it, and turn it into something where it blows by and people go "Damn that's fast."

One of the things I've always wanted to do ever since I was a kid was learn how to dynotune cars and make them run just as fast as they can, and you can't do that at your average repair shops.

So I want to learn how to fix things, because it'll help me learn how to work on my own cars and show potential tuner shop employers that I'm serious about this and I know what I'm doing, but my end game is to get a job at a tuning shop and learn how to dynotune cars and how to do cool things that your average mechanic never gets to do.
 

Adam.C

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Here is a place to start;
Clockwise from bottom right corner:
#13C 6" Double Square. Note blade is so shiny it reflects direct light. Slightly embarrassed by this, I special ordered a Satin Chrome blade for this a few years back (after I took this picture).

#13A 4" Double Square. This dates around WW2 and is not pristine, but pretty darned nice. I replaced its worn blade with a new satin chrome version (did I mention I like satin chrome?). I checked this against my master squares. Its not perfect and it changes as you move the blade- probably from dust on the blade and such- but it's SO close it almost isn't worth talking about.

#453 Die-makers Square. The blade can be angled with the second screw in the stock. It doesn't lean quite enough for it to be useful for marking hand cut dovetails, but the angle can be eyeballed and the squares lines marked quite effectively. This thing is a super accurate jewel, that's handier than one might think. Had i to do it all over again, I would probably just buy the #14 without the angle adjustment. Also, I have the whole set with the different blades and never use them.

H33J with 6" scale. This is the hardened head from the junior combination square set. This one is easily 60 years old. Again, scale replaced with a new satin chrome model

#70A and B scribers. These have carbide blades. The HSS blade would be easier to sharpen or reshape into knives that would be helpful for woodwork. Recommend the bigger B model (3/8" barrel v. 1/4" on 70A).

#236 Combination Depth and Angle Gage. This is a handy little devil that gets lots of use in my shop. You can still see some traces of the original salt acid bluing that makes the psychedelic finish. I touched up the black oxide with Brownell's Oxpho blue creme (all adjuster knobs). It has an interchangeable 6" scale and a rod. Very handy for woodwork.

Bottom Left Corner:

#47 Improved Bevel - not a woodworking tool, because its so thin, but can be useful for that reason sometimes.

C33J Center head from the Junior Combination Set. This accepts the thin blades from the 4" double square.

Top left corner: Dessicant pack- always a good idea

#49 Combination Bevel. Haven't found a ton of use for this yet. Ebay seller I bought it from didn't know what it was and i got it for less than $10. (this has typically been my experience with all of these tools).

Middle top: Spare 4" combination rule.

New, these tools would be pretty expensive. I bought the satin chrome scales as cosmetic seconds on ebay. Each one was probably $10-15. Its always a good idea to check the ends of your rulers/scales. Sometimes they are long or short. These were all fine. I've never encountered a problem with ruler, but I only buy/use decent quality tools.

As woodworking tools or general hobby layout tools, this is a good set to consider. Its nice to have smaller tools in a wood shop to check machines, or edges etc. And Starrett tools are made so well, even 50 or 75 years old, these still have the accuracy you need. People really took pride in their work back then- both the manufacturer and the customers.

Now-a-days, many pro machinists don't do hand layouts. They machine to NC tapes. So there are a lot of these tools around for cheap. That won't last however. These tools will disappear, finding their way to landfills after Grandpa dies. People just don't know what they are or can't imagine how they could be useful. IMHO, worth shopping for some of this, cleaning them up as I have, and using and appreciating great USA made stuff.
 

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Adam.C

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This drawer holds my set of master squares. I was using them a lot when I took this picture, otherwise I have them packed away in vaseline. Pretty sure those are 4", 6", and 12" #20s. I bought each one on ebay and they may not have been cheap. I think the big one may have been close to $100. Don't really recall. A new 12" #20 is over $500 and is square to .0002" overall. (#20's are good to .0001"/6".) Heat from your hand can make them less accurate. I have no way of verifying their accuracy at present. But I can tell you all of them match each other (when their working surfaces are properly cleaned).

In addition to the #20's you can see the small combination square set I was talking about earlier. This is not the current Junior model, but a discontinued model only available in the patterned iron. You can tell quickly by the scribe (little ball at the top of the stock- that's the head of a tiny scratch awl scribe). This set uses rules that IIRC are 3/4" wide. The Junior and #13A use 5/8" wide rules. They are also different thicknesses. You don't need both. I only mention this because it's nice to be able to swap scales in your stocks to fit different places. So there's an advantage in the Junior/#13 set.

The other head is a H33 with an 18" ruler. That's a 24" and a 12" as well. I think you can buy other brands of rules to fit this head.

In the red pouch is another 453 die maker's square with all the accessories that I never use.
 

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Adam.C

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Here's the top of my box if anyone is interested. Obviously, I'm a hobby machinist, doing highly specialized small projects.

Clockwise from lower right corner:
Starrett Wiggler set (for locating holes and sides of workpieces on a mill).

Starrett #706BZ 123 "inspection" blocks. I bought these directly from Starrett's ebay page as seconds. They had some tiny rust spots. Rust usually pits a surface (once its cleaned off), so small pits don't really effect the utility of these. These are $700+ new. I may have paid $200 for them. They are nearly perfectly square and perfectly 1"x2"x3" dimensionally. Very handy.

Crappy craftsman 1/4" drive sockets- since replaced with Snap On. Some craftsman tools are usable. The CM 1/4" drive seems to be particularly bad. The drive sides have wobble functionality built in! In the smaller sizes, the sizes stamped into the socket is really a rough guide.

Starrett Vee blocks #278 . There is an individual and a matched pair here. I cleaned these on a wire wheel before I knew better. Lord knows if they are still matched- they should be close. Someday, I'll check them out.

Upper Left Corner:
Hermann Schmidt 3" Angle plate sitting on VPI paper.

Suburban 123 blocks- set of 4 matching blocks- These don't appear to have been ground. I bought these at an auction from the guy who bought them from new. Had a few rust spots, but nothing major. The Chinese copy these but get them wrong. They drill all the holes, then tap half of them, leaving the other half alone. That way, you can't pass a screw thru them to screw them together, defeating the purpose of tapping the holes in the first place.

Starrett #56 Surface Gage.
Starrett #257 Surface Gage. Both train wreck when I got them. Lovingly restored. As I said, I typically use these to mount indicators on.

Top Right Corner:
Schmidt V0-4 grind vise. If you don't know what this is, never mind. But this is one of the things I would grab if my shop caught fire. I paid $165 for this to the daughter of a machinist who had passed. That was her price, not mine.

Bottom Right Corner:
Girodtast test indicators. These were cheap on ebay (under $50 each) probably because they were listed as Fowler. Fowler has a reputation for marking up Chinese items and calling them "mid quality". But they also re-brand off brand Swiss items which are pretty good quality. These happen to be Swiss made. They are both 0-15-0 X .0005. I have a matching tenths indicator in my drawer of arms. Tho I have many, I'm not a connoisseur of indicators. I just know not to buy the Chinese models with the non-std fixings.

In the center are precision ball bearings that I have used for inspections.

People ask me if I work on the Space Shuttle with these tools. I don't. What got me into all this tooling was all the second hand and Chinese made stuff I was buying. You can buy a Chinese mill vise that looks just like a Kurt, but you really have no idea what you are getting. It could be okay, or worth nothing. Without a way to inspect to .001" or so, you have no idea. And that's no simple matter. I know our digicalipers read to .001", but it isn't easy to get that kind of accuracy out of them.

So the way I see it, you have 2 choices; either buy your machinery from a company that actually can certify its specs (like EVERY machine shop does), or stand up your own mini QC department to calibrate the second hand junk you buy. And this goes for woodworking equipment, Paul. You can get finish ready surfaces out of some miter saws or table saws. Or not. Arbors and bearings can be checked, and adjusted or repaired if you have the right tools to check them.
 

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pepi

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One thing about machining, lots of measuring devices, Starrett is preferred here also, however there are others with good products, a magnetic base comes to mind as an example.
 

bmk

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Minnesota, Twin Cities area
Here's some of what's left of my work tools. I took a lot of them home to use in my shop there. Here's a combination of Starrett, Mitutoyo, Browne and Sharpe, Lufkin, Anton, Interapid a few Chinese and a bunch of stuff I made when I was younger.

In general I prefer Starrett's hand tools for the most part. I did buy the Mitutoyo step mic. because I like the feel better than the Starrett. You can't beat Interapid/ Browne and Sharpe indicators though.
 

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