Shower handle - acting odd

[ollie76]

I have a standup shower with a MOEN single handle faucet. Lately it's been acting differently and I can't understand why.

To get the water nice and hot for the shower, I have to turn it towards the hot side way further than I used to. This is distinctly different than how it behaved even up to last summer. Normally just a little left of straight up and down was fine. Now it's got to be cranked right over almost.

Our water tank was replaced two years ago with a really nice Rheem Professional and the water is still really nice and hot so I don't "think" that's the problem but you never know.

Trying to think what has changed:

1. I flushed the water tank (I do this annually). I shut the power off to the tank at the breaker panel and drained a few gallons from the bottom drain. I waited about 30 mins after draining before turning the power back on.

2. Our water meter was replaced with a fancy new digital one. Replaced the old analog one.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Time for a new thermostatic cartridge. Have fun getting it out. Moen shower valve cartridges can be a pain to replace, even with the puller. Use lots of silicone grease on the new cartridge. They also changed a lot of the cartridge designs to flow more water than they used to, so if you already have temperature recovery issues, you run out of hot water faster than you did before. I got so frustrated with the "new" cartridges that I replaced my Moen with a Delta.

Tommy

 

[ollie76]

Yeah? So this is an obvious problem? What's going on do you think?

One thing I noticed happening this past summer was that it wanted to flow hot water almost anywhere I placed the handle. So, for example, lets say I wanted to have a fairly cold shower after mowing the lawn......it was difficult to get it to not be hot. Damn near had it all the way cold before it started to cool off.

Now I kinda have the opposite problem.

 

[Jim greengo]

Is it an old style moen or a posi temp? Posi temp cartridges usually come out pretty easy,older style usually takes a puller.
Either way it's usually not too big of a deal.

 

[ollie76]

Good question. This was probably installed in 2001 or 2002, if that helps. Not sure if it's posi-temp or not.

 

[Milton Shaw]

You may have trash in the valve, you probably need a new cartridge for it. But while the cartridge is out, briefly turn on the water to flush out the parts of the valve and line you cannot get too. There is almost always a lot more **** from the lines gets in the cold water valve than the hot, because the hot water tank lets the **** settle out in the bottom of the tank. This is true only if the anode of water heater hasn't started to dissolve like Ream had problems with several years ago.

 

[p_mori7]

Many of those also have anti-scalding feature (like when someone flushes the toilet while you're in the shower). Once you remove the handle, then pull out the cartridge that controls the hot/cold mix, there should be another little section behind that. When you pull it out, give it a few shakes. If you don't hear it rattling inside or can't see the mechanism rocking back/forth, it's stuck because of debris or rust or scale. Just get a new cartridge kit...that little anti-scald thingy is usually included.

I just fixed the shower in the kids bathroom 2 weeks ago for this issue.

Make sure to turn off the main water service to the house before you start pulling it apart.

~Phil.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Is it an old style moen or a posi temp? Posi temp cartridges usually come out pretty easy,older style usually takes a puller.
Either way it's usually not too big of a deal.

Good point. When he said he had problems getting enough hot water I just assumed it was a posi temp. I didn't consider he may not have a posi temp. Either way, I've never had a posi temp come out easily if it was more than about 2 years old. I've even had to break them up and pull them out in pieces with pliers.

I'm not trying to scare you, ollie76, just being realistic about my experience with them...

Tommy

 

[ollie76]

Thanks for the input folks. Might be a plumber call! I usually have difficulty with DIY plumbing as everything seems to crumble when I disassemble and getting parts is always a pain.

 

[ollie76]

Any obvious way of telling if I have a posi temp or not?

 

[PoorOwner]

Like I tell my wife, a bath remodel always starts with a cartridge replacement not going the way it is supposed to.

 

[Jim greengo]

Any obvious way of telling if I have a posi temp or not?

Post a picture of faucet

 

[ollie76]

Cool, see the attached photo

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Probably is a posi temp.

Tommy

 

[pbon]

I changed a cartridge a couple of years ago. It was in stock at Lowe’s or HD. Might have been a moen. Can’t remember but whatever company, it used the same part for all its single handled faucets for about 10 years so it was easy to get.

 

[rlitman]

Many of those also have anti-scalding feature (like when someone flushes the toilet while you're in the shower). Once you remove the handle, then pull out the cartridge that controls the hot/cold mix, there should be another little section behind that. When you pull it out, give it a few shakes. If you don't hear it rattling inside or can't see the mechanism rocking back/forth, it's stuck because of debris or rust or scale. Just get a new cartridge kit...that little anti-scald thingy is usually included.

I just fixed the shower in the kids bathroom 2 weeks ago for this issue.

Make sure to turn off the main water service to the house before you start pulling it apart.

~Phil.

I have had several types of Moen cartridge systems over the years, but never a posi-temp. All of my pressure balanced Moen shower valves have the spool mounted behind a separate cover with a large slot to the side of the cartridge. I had one get stuck, and it was a bear, using a wrench on one of my largest slotted screwdrivers to get that cover off. I was seriously worried about stripping the brass slot. When I got it out, I found a chunk of rust that had the spool stuck.

Good point. When he said he had problems getting enough hot water I just assumed it was a posi temp. I didn't consider he may not have a posi temp. Either way, I've never had a posi temp come out easily if it was more than about 2 years old. I've even had to break them up and pull them out in pieces with pliers.

I'm not trying to scare you, ollie76, just being realistic about my experience with them...

Tommy

Oh, again, no posi temp here. Just the classic clear Moen cartridge. When mine get sketchy (they last maybe 5 years or so with daily use), I can usually do everything with the needle nose pliers on my Leatherman. Pull the wishbone, and a gentle tug pulls the core out.

However, I have seen a cartridge puller tool for ones that get stuck.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/DANCO-Cartridge-Puller-for-MOEN-86712/100560034

 

[Jim greengo]

Probably is a posi temp.

Tommy

yep that looks like a posi temp,easy fix.
No puller required,maybe a pair of vise grips worse case scenario.

 

[The_Geologist]

Those older Moen cartridges can be a pain. While I was out of town last spring, my wife started having issues with her shower (similar to what the PO described). She researched all the parts and went down to the hardware store and got a puller and a couple of the correct cartridges (just in case). Unfortunately, she wasn't able to get the cartridge out.

Fast forward a couple weeks after I get back, and the shower won't turn off! It stayed running at a fast trickle (if that makes sense...). I try my hand at the puller, and it snaps in two the first time I used it. So, I tried other methods, and eventually succeeded in pulling out the center portion while leaving the rest of the cartridge inside. I was not impressed!

Ended up calling the plumber as I was afraid I was going to damage something in the wall. Was well worth the $100, as he was able to get the rest of the cartridge out (but not without a bit of swearing himself...), AND my wife was able to sweetly talk him into pulling a second cartridge in the basement tub that had also started leaking - without further cost.

I kind of wondered how old those cartridges were...the house was built in 1978, and I would not be surprised if they were that old!

Getting to my point on this...if I ever have to replace another Moen cartridge, I'm just calling the plumber and letting them fight it. Calling these things a royal pain is being too nice, based upon my experience.

 

[rlitman]

...I kind of wondered how old those cartridges were...the house was built in 1978, and I would not be surprised if they were that old!...

Yeah, you've got to change them when the handle FEELS weird. Don't wait until it won't shut any more. And remember to use lots of silicone grease. They can be a bear to remove if someone was dumb enough to install it "dry".

As for breakage during removal, I can see how the outer shell can get so attached to the body that it can withstand enough force to break the front of the tube and allow the center core to escape. But once that's out, I'd imagine that a large (like #6) screw extractor could be put into the hole, and with a minute of wrenching, either free it up, or twist off the valve in the wall if it's just hanging from the pipes (which it should NOT be).

 

[LS6 Tommy]

yep that looks like a posi temp,easy fix.
No puller required,maybe a pair of vise grips worse case scenario.

Wish I had your luck.

Tommy

 

[The_Geologist]

But once that's out, I'd imagine that a large (like #6) screw extractor could be put into the hole, and with a minute of wrenching, either free it up, or twist off the valve in the wall if it's just hanging from the pipes (which it should NOT be).

That is the exact method the plumber used (I didn't have any extractors that big), and he did eventually get them out, but it wasn't easy.

He still had to alternate (several times) heating the cartridge with a MAPP gas torch, then applying force to get it out. The first one took him maybe 10 - 15 minutes. The second one took him something like 35 - 40 minutes...it was IN there!